Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Actually I am 99% a solo player. But the game was built almost entirely around PBEM with some things tossed in for solo play. I dont forsee a major time-consuming rewrite for SP moving to the top of the list over many many MP items. Small tweaks, yes. But once it looked like it would not be simple I stopped considering it likely.

However, there are always major points to be made in that scoring process for personal interest by a dev.

[ November 08, 2003, 13:01: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Hey! The AI is NOT THAT BAD Gandalf, it need lot of tweaking but that's all. I think the devs can update those things from the list, without too many problems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The tweakings is what I mean. That IS what we should pursue. Its the projects such as seperate AI scripting or tactics specific to a nation that we might not see soon.

As for the tweakings I think we will need to get more specific. Just saying "more hvy units" by itself isnt a fix. The AI is no better with a few hvy units than it was with alot of cheap ones. When we put up some specific percentages that helped although that would hurt some races. When we gave specifics on when the AI should consider another castle that was closer.

[ November 08, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The tweakings is what I mean. That IS what we should pursue. Its the projects such as seperate AI scripting or tactics specific to a nation that we might not see soon.

As for the tweakings I think we will need to get more specific. Just saying "more hvy units" by itself isnt a fix. The AI is no better with a few hvy units than it was with alot of cheap ones. When we put up some specific percentages that helped although that would hurt some races. When we gave specifics on when the AI should consider another castle that was closer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, than what would you suggest? Since the AI won't use too many heavy units in the demo, it is clear that we must make a suggestion about it. I think this is a 'quite simple' example, we cannot post too many details about this one...or can we?

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

A little update:


THE "AI WEAKNESSES" LIST:
1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI won't protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI won't build forts, maybe 1-2 max, but that is very rare as well.
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
((Example: You can use a few units and put them to the front, the AI will attack them with full force more than likely. Usually the AI's own missile units will kill some or more of its melee units.))
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone from province to province ((the pretender is surely not doing anything, since it is moving in all turns. - and it is doing this in the border provinces! - the AI pretenders are all dead before turn 20-40 ususally.))
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.
9. The AI is building too many temples ((??????? This is good or bad, I cannot decide.))
10. The AI won't search for magical sites? ((I am not exactly sure, but I have never noticed, that the AI searched for magical sites.))

[ November 09, 2003, 08:44: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

One thing i noticed today:
The AI doesn't play Rainbow mage type pretenders very well:
I saw a Frost Father with 7 in Astral, 3 in Earth and 1 in Water and a Arch Mage with 6 in ir, 3 in Fire and 1 in Earth.
The thing is, those pretenders were very expensive in design points. The AI had poor scales and Mausoleums as forts.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WHAT AI doesnt use enough hvy troops? WHAT hvy troops do you wish he would use? What percentage? Maybe we could use the mini map to figure out if that is even a good idea and what nations its a good idea for. Definetly not all of them. Some nations would definetly go from decent to sucky if they used more hvy troops (Pangaea being a big example). And most nations would regret it as a general rule if it was too expensive a move. Is a few hvy troops better than alot of cheap ones in most cases?

The Posts talking about setting hvy troops to 10% of the army made some sense. But Im taking for granted they meant hvy infantry to be mixed in with the lite infantry. Does it also mean that they should have 10% hvy cavalry? Is that 10% of the whole army or 10% of a mounted army? Should they have a walking army where 10% of it is hvy troops AND a mounted army where 10% is hvy troops (with... what was it? 60% lite mounted?)

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What meant they didnt do it well? It wasnt a good choice for a demo game since Rainbow Mages are a strategy that bears fruit late in the game. How do you feel the AI should have done it. Oh and what race had this pretender since that can make a big difference.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They spent huge amounts of design points on those pretenders. They had poor forts and negative scales.

Uhhhh, sir, we are talking bout' RB Mages with 7 in one path... Getting to 4 in one is hard and expensive enough with a RB Mage pretender
I usualy take 1-3 of every path with my RB pretenders. It may not be the best choice, but it is less expensive that taking 7 in one path with pretender like Crone.

Pythium had the Frost Father and Vanheim had the Arch Mage.

[ November 09, 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

The AI should pay more attention to supply lines and the risk of strategic encirclement.

If it's going to risk being cut off, it really should make an attempt to forge supply items and bring them along (which requires nature magic; perhaps AIs should make more use of indy druids et al). This is particularly true when using troops with a low base morale, because of the 4 point penalty...

e.g. Last night playing the demo solo as Jotunheim (Utgard theme), I found and attacked the Machakans. At one point, they attacked a forward fort of mine. Their sieging force, mostly Machakan light foot with spider knights, was adjacent to only one Machakan-held province, which in turn was adjacent to their only castle (Machaka itself). In this single-province bridge lay another Machakan force led by the spider lady herself. Next to this bridge lay my main force.

The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers. That meant that the besiegers, while they were now making decent progress against the walls, were completely surrounded -- and I annihilated them the following turn, as the morale-4 troops were trivial to rout. Well in excess of half of the total Machakan armed forces, including a decent national hero, were obliterated at little cost since they had nowhere to run... That made it far easier to take Machaka a couple of turns later.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw...

[ November 09, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is why I suggested multiple personalities for the AI opponents because then we would not see this problem. Even as the developers improve the AI for this game as time passes more and more weaknesses/flaws will be discovered thus only leaving a challenge for human multiplayer games. If the AI opponents had multiple AI personalities it would keep gamers guessing... especially if the personalities would randomly change every 40 turns.
Hopefully Dominions_III they will be able to provide this or a miracle patch. I've suggested the same to the developers of Age_of_Wonders series and most of the gamers there also seem to agree.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, if it is caught in that situation, it should attempt to cut back to friendly lines. Usually in such a situation there are several directions the beseigers could have gone where they would have encountered little or no resistance and could have reestablished their supply lines within a few turns (although of course it would have meant abandoning the siege, this is surely far preferable to having your beseiging army wiped out).

An inferior force (and while they may have had decent force, they were definitely inferior while starving) should almost always try to avoid battle. (The exception is when they are in a desperate enough situation that avoiding battle will do no good - for example, if the entire army was already diseased, then making it back to friendly lines would be of little value.)

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is why I suggested multiple personalities for the AI opponents because then we would not see this problem. Even as the developers improve the AI for this game as time passes more and more weaknesses/flaws will be discovered thus only leaving a challenge for human multiplayer games. If the AI opponents had multiple AI personalities it would keep gamers guessing... especially if the personalities would randomly change every 40 turns.
Hopefully Dominions_III they will be able to provide this or a miracle patch. I've suggested the same to the developers of Age_of_Wonders series and most of the gamers there also seem to agree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe, dominions 3.......if there will be Doms 3. at all.
The idea is good, but I guess, that the devs can update the AI very well, without adding major content -like the personalities.
I think that list made by Aristoteles is very valid, and all of those problems must be fixed.
Gandalf, your question was that what heavy units the AI should build.
I think that it is not our job to make suggestions about this one. The devs will know that what -and- how, since we do not know that AI scripts.

[ November 10, 2003, 11:04: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes it is. The Devs have asked for specific examples. It may give them ideas of where the AI should be modified. Or it may give us some more awareness on the problems here. People say that the devs are ignoring these threads but this is a 15 page thread that was answered numerous times starting with the second post. We seem to be ignoring their answers.

We could just start with one nation. When people say that the AI isnt using enough hvy units, what AI are they referring to? What units? If we can come up with a formula then we can compare that formula to other nations to see how it would go.

Illwinter listening to players debate formulas is what made Dom1 what it was.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Hey, I think that the AI should mix the heavy units, IE. it should use all of them. I think that all of the heavy troops are very good.
I am always using lot of different heavy troops and it is working very well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

The developers want specific examples...

I believe the developers should have the AI create armies which they feel would be effective during gameplay. Hopefully they've played the game enough to know what combinations make a powerful attack force. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The current build of having massive amounts of small troops should be left for the 'easy AI' setting.
-On the same note: If NASA asked how to build a good space shuttle... I would look them in the eye and say 'Your the Experts' .

___________________________________

The only suggestion I highly recommend is having the AI opponent able to build multiple/random types of army combinations. If only one default army design is built the human players will quickly learn then master it.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I don't get it. We had a suggestion that the AI should build more Heavy troops. So than? It should build HI, HC, summon powerful monsters etc. etc.
Why is this so complicated??

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its like saying that people should own more porsches. Specific formulas could be tested for whether it would be workable more situations than it would be stupid. This is getting nuts. Out of all of these "different" people saying this needs done SURELY one of them can come up with a few specifics.

Everything has its pros and cons. Usually the disadvantage of having hvy units is that you dont get very many of them compared to lighter units. Building too many, too soon, and definetly thinking that ALL the AIs should do it would not be a good idea. (and Im suspecting its one that the Devs have already come up against). But I agree that all lighter units is not a good idea. I dont think thats whats being done except in the early game when gold/resources are limited.

And the devs have ASKED for specifics. Id say that unless we try to work this further we can probably consider the matter dropped.

SO what AI? What units? What percentages? Lets test the Groups on the "battle simulator" (mini.map) and pin this down.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Heh, this is exactly why I hoped that the army compositions could be externalized, much easier (and quicker) to test that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For my part I'm not giving suggestions as to what the best composition is because I don't know what it is, I'm too new to the game to provide meaningful commentary on this issue. I was hoping that the Gandalfs and other vets would provide the army compositions that they find succesful in their games, and use that as a starting point...

Anyway, the issue is more complicated than just 'whats the best army composition' as you have to be able to take into consideration the factors in game that control that. The income, resources, gems, available mages (and magic for the '?' mages) are all controling factors in what the 'best' army compostion will be. Also certain balance or bug issues may be negatively impacting the AIs army compostions, issues with building forts and labs come foremost to mind.

So it may be too eary to start tweeking the AI, the balance and bugs need to be resolved first. But it's not too early to provide specifics as to what an ideal army compostion should be (scale it for turn#, or gem income, or whatever if you can). Once other issues have been sorted out, we'll be that much further along to getting a more robust AI (if it's needed that is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

I'll try a specific if you like...

C'tis (non Tomb theme)
20% LI (for the javalins)
40% Falchioneers or Elite Warriors (or both)
20% Swamp Gaurds
10% Longdead + Skeletons
10% Other (poison slingers, Serpents, Dancers)

The other is somewhat based on effectiveness of blessing and availability of Undead to use with the slingers.

The % of SG should drop as more and better Undead become available. If gem income and mages allow the % of Falchioneers and EWs should drop to allow for more death/nature (ideally poison immune) summons. The % of Slingers can increase as more poison immune units are created.

Comanders...

One LK per army mininum. As the army fills out one Shaman and one Commander or Lord to help ferry units. Undead can be led by MMs or Sauromancers, or summoned (Banes or Mound kings early). Add more mages as they become available to summon more hoards of undead.

Well there you have a stab at some concrete numbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK that looks good. So this is what you feel would provice you a challenge to go up against?

Do you see this as an army you would meet at their castle? Or that it would show up coming at you? Since its all home units I take it that this is something for early in the game.

How large an army do you see this as being? This is an ongoing build order? When these max do you see them walking out and starting another one?

I take it for granted that this is supposed to be built in this configuration right from the start? Not cheap units first then fill in later with others (I think thats whats going on now)

So I brought up my Ctis game and bought 2 LI, 2 Falconeers and 2 Elite Guards, I didnt see swamp guards but I may have the wrong theme, and I bought 1 slinger. That worked. I ran low on resources long before money but that would allow me to buy some nice expensive mages to keep up on the need for the undead units.

It didnt look like very many troops though. Many cheap troops are usually what I would start with to get a cheap efficient patrol force. Maybe for a walking army. If I use the battle simulator map I could put in 20, 40, 10, 10 of all those troop types and test them in battle.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Well you have to decide on whether or not you want the AI to expand early and at what attrition rate.

I would contend with Indy's being set on 7 (50+ - 80 member armies per province) that the AI would react differently. As the only real efficent way to deal with the masses of LI, with a few support units (HI and Cav) is to have a tougher attack base to keep your army healthy and not waste money.

I would hope that the AI would buy the cheapest most survivable unit earliest.

Example

Ulm (Non Iron Faith Theme)
For the first 10 turns

40% of Production of LI (Maul, no Shield 18 Resources)
50% of Production of HI (Morningstar work)
10% of Production of Cav

All Commanders Master Smiths.

If you have them place them in the right formations with the right starting positions they can effectively still field an army that can kill nearby indies to upgrade their gold output.

After a certain point is reached (Perhaps 50 LI) the focus could switch more to the HI and Cav.

60% HI
40 Cav

Maybe this isn't the best strategy around but if you could put a cap on certain weaker units that they produce or maybe a turn cap; it would allow the progress of the game to be gauged by the AI somewhat generally.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats part of the problem. At different indep settings this can change the reqquired troops alot. And if you expand with alot of attrition then you fall to the first player that reaches you. If you are too careful then you fall to the players who expand rather than rush.

much good stuff snipped
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That all looked good. So a rush on getting light troops made, patrol, raise taxes, then start filling in with heavy, elite, cavalry?
A number like 50 LI sounded good.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

OK here would be my own effort. Just in general terms (needing tweaks for specific nations)

Buy a non-special commander with high leader ability. Able to lead 50 or 75 troops? Then each turn buy one cheap non-commander type (scout, spy, assassin, priest) and as many of the cheapest units possible (slingers, light infantry). That is the patrolling army. Each round you also raise the tax level 10%?

When the patrolling army is maxxed then start a moving army. Heavy commander and a high troop leadership ability. Start building the 5 different unit Groups to assign to him. Section 1 should have a mix of all infantry and be 50% of the army. Section 2 should be shooters for 20% of the army (archers, crossbows, javelin, slingers) to be positioned directly behind section 1. Sections 3 and 4 are the flanks. Large units or cavalry making up 20%. Section 5 is longrange such as longbows or flyers.

I would say that filling up the LI, then the shooters, then section five, and Lastly the section 4 (hvy cavalry/elephants/hydra/chariots) would keep you from having to support the higher upkeep-cost and supply eating units for a long time before marching them out.

But how does that compare with what the AI does now? Should I scatter the purchases so that a low-independent small-map rush game doesnt take me too soon? If I do that then Im not playing very good for the longer games.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK that looks good. So this is what you feel would provice you a challenge to go up against?

Do you see this as an army you would meet at their castle? Or that it would show up coming at you? Since its all home units I take it that this is something for early in the game.

How large an army do you see this as being? This is an ongoing build order? When these max do you see them walking out and starting another one?

I take it for granted that this is supposed to be built in this configuration right from the start? Not cheap units first then fill in later with others (I think thats whats going on now)

So I brought up my Ctis game and bought 2 LI, 2 Falconeers and 2 Elite Guards, I didnt see swamp guards but I may have the wrong theme, and I bought 1 slinger. That worked. I ran low on resources long before money but that would allow me to buy some nice expensive mages to keep up on the need for the undead units.

It didnt look like very many troops though. Many cheap troops are usually what I would start with to get a cheap efficient patrol force. Maybe for a walking army. If I use the battle simulator map I could put in 20, 40, 10, 10 of all those troop types and test them in battle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whether it would be challenging or not depends on many different things... In general I'd say it would be more challenging than an army composed of 80% LI and Militias though...

I wasn't real specific with the when or the wheres of that compesition. Ideally that would be an army that would be used later in the game with 80+ units I think. Initially you'd have to go with more like 70% LI and 30% 'other' probably the EWs and SGs. I didn't add any kind of logic to tweek the %s for the outside factors though, but ideally they %s would be tweeked depending on income/resource levels, gem income, mages...

I don't see patroling (to counter unrest from raised taxes) to be as useful in Dom2 so I'm not sure that I'd focus on patrols and high income early, over expansion to simply get more province, but that's a bit of a different question. I don't konw if the AI is built to up taxes and patrol or not, and I'd rather not complicate the issues at hand with that.

It would be interesting to run some tests with that basic army compostion and say a couple Sauromancers (or Marshmasters) with evocation 3 or 4 and Alteration 2. Use an LK and one other Infantry type comander. What you pit that army against... I dunno, maybe some combination of similarly gold/resource Ulm army (since that's the other nation that's been discussed).

I have to say though that as the game progresses those %s need to change, and probably heavilly. Especially if there is a good nature/death gem income to create armies with more summons. If that's the case then the poison slingers need to go up along with the poison immune units, while some amount of either blessable or heavy hitters (falchioneers and EWs) are kept around.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it would be best if the formulas handled the game progression. Either by using the number of turns as a factor (LI should be 50 - turns) or by having them in the %'s with a clause to ignore it if its not possible.

Such as... If I said HI 20%, undead 20%, Hvy Cavalry 10%, non-undead summons 20%, LI 50% (in that order) then of course thats more than 100%. But early in the game the undead and summons cant be done which would cause LI to be built. If only undead at %5 can be done then the rest would fill in. But even late in the game when it can make ALOT of undead it still wont end up with a completely undead army. My math sucks so Im hoping the concept is clear here. The %'s dont have to add up to 100% if the sequence is considered.

The same could be done for making magic items or casting global spells (probably before unit building). Telling the AI to create something wont matter if it cant afford to create it. As soon as it can afford it, it gets made.

I still think this might be a job for a real-life budget manager to tackle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 11, 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I like your suggestion Gandalf, seems more easy to implement than using a ton of if then else structure.

Hopefully once the full game hits we'll have ample time to see if the AI is actually doing things better after turn 40 than it appears they are before. Also there was mention of a patch, so maybe some of the formulae were already tweeked to improve the AI...

Only time (or a dev) will tell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but if the early game of the AI is so weak.....anyways wait for the full and we will be wiser. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As for this suggestion by Gandalf. Do you think, that it is a good idea to post deatiles like.. XY would like to see 10% LI, 30% HI etc. in the early game, this and that in the late game....I think this won't work.
Someone have said that the devs will know that what and how. I agree with this. They've scripted the AI, they know the major AI weaknesses now. We've made our suggestions already. Just my 2 cents.

[ November 12, 2003, 08:09: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK we can back off on the discussions if everyone REALLY feels its left in the Devs hands. But the devs havent said they agree with all of those suggestions.

I thought the people who kept raising the list to the top wanted to pursue the subject along the lines that the devs had mentioned in their response. If the thread keeps jumping up then I will jump back in to discuss things further.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">50% of the recent Posts here are from you jumping back in keeping the thread at the top. I think the devs got what they needed... did you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">50% of the recent Posts here are from you jumping back in keeping the thread at the top. I think the devs got what they needed... did you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, IF the devs want us to make detailed examples like what should the AI build, than I will post MY ideas. But those will be my ideas, prolly we all have different opinion about this topic. That is why I've said that details like this are not vital for the devs...IMHO.
I guess they will know how to fix those things from the list. BUT if they really need such details, I will be glad to help in that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 12, 2003, 15:18: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I don't know if the devs got what they needed or not. Anyway, its silly to just stop the discussion, though you are free to stop reading it if it bothers you for some reason.

What is unknown at this point is how the bug and balance changes will influance the AI's army composition (since that's mainly what we are dealing with here). There's no reason to stop debating what a good army mix should be, even as we hope that the simple fixes (coming in the patch I assume) may have fixed some of these issues.

Besides Gandalf is playing an important role in these discussions, he's challenging everyone who steps in and says 'this isn't good' to give some details on how they would make it better. The more specifics you give the better off the discussion will be. If you arn't interested (or cannot supply) the specifics then don't bother complaining when someone else tries to provide some.

Anyway, we all seem to have faith in the devs, but even they benefit from reading these discussions, as I said, if you don't benefit from it, stop reading it.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are right licker...but I hope that you understand my point about this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
{{This is a very complicated thing, thus we all have different ideas. Now if we will post 20 different things, that surely won't help.}}
Hm however it won't cause any probs at all, so yes why not.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I wasn't actually replying to your post Mortifer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It just got in the way, that's all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I think all of this discussion is worthwhile and interesting. If the devs agree, great, if they don't... it's still not hurting anything, and some of us can read between the lines and improve our own games from this discussion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I'd advise testing the AI on different difficulty levels. The easiest game I had against the AI was against all impossibles, about default settings. I personally defeated 2 ai players by turn 20, which is unheard of by me on even normal difficulty. Admittedly jotunheim with a blade wind casting pretender didn't hurt...but even so.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What I saw when I dove in here strongly was a series of Posts putting the list back up to the top of the thread. My efforts were trying to get things back into the track requested by the devs in responses in this thread.

We can tackle any of the things that are on the wish list of this thread but the goal should be to give testable examples and suggested formulas. Im not one to jump on people for saying "its broke" and not helping out. But saying its broke over and over doesnt do much.

Shall we continue work discussing army formulas or shift to something else on the list?

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I'd advise testing the AI on different difficulty levels. The easiest game I had against the AI was against all impossibles, about default settings. I personally defeated 2 ai players by turn 20, which is unheard of by me on even normal difficulty. Admittedly jotunheim with a blade wind casting pretender didn't hurt...but even so. [/quote]

That is part of the problem. Telling the AI to build armies a certain way only works best for certain settings. The AI now seems to do best when the game is set at independents 5 or 6. I usually set it at 7. The AI then seems to properly seek expansion with mass troops, then builds decent armies when it can afford to, then work on magic.

Indeps set at 3 (the default) tends to create a "rush game" but the AI set on difficult makes it think its in for a long hard game. The harder AIs definetly perform better in harder games.


http://www.otakurevolution.net/otakurevolution/idea.gif
I havent tested it but Im rather curious if the easy AI might not actually do better in a low indep game than the hard AI does.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Does anyone know if the AI is one broad spectrum or if it's individualized?

Just for my benefit for thinking about it:

Maybe I haven't been able to find it on the Boards or on any website, but if the AI is simple in it's parameters (Simple as in it meets a certain condition and performs) and not geared towards a race then we can come up with formulas based on generalizations.

To better explain. Does the AI have a parameter: (to use my own brand of dumbass programming language)

IF Jotun, Turn 1
IF Have Castle, Hill Fort
DO Produce Jotun Woodcutter 100%

or is it that certain things are flagged as a certain Category like say all Cavalry are flagged in every race or province and are created when a certain command is given no matter the race.

So when we say "The AI should produce 50% HI unless they are X, X, X, race where they should focus 20% more on Ranged/HI" are we making comments for only one race or do you want broad generalizations. As in the Castle and placement debate.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

To try to contribute a little to the discussion.
I was thinking about the AI pacing back and forth in the border provinces. I don't know how the AI handles that situation now, and whether it's actually reacting to the border and neighbouring armies by amassing troops but then running out of supply in that particular province and hence moving the troops out. But to make it a little less predictable, maybe something like this would help:
IF (enemy army present in neighbouring province)
THEN (stay in the province for 1+x turns if not starving, where x is a random dice number)

It would seem that the AI knows when it's threatened, judging by the amount of local defense it puts into threatened provinces, and it should know whther it's out of supply as well, so maybe this would work if it's not already working this way, and the only problem is the supply route, which brings us back to the castle issue.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That seems like a reasonable idea. I'm wondering if the AI is getting caught in some kind of a yo-yo effect where it keeps seeing different threats and keeps moving to react to them, only to see them disappear in the same way that it's forces are disappearing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The AI should be able to keep a properly suplied army in a province as well, I don't see why it's moving in too many units anyway, unless it understands the abusability of the supply rules... which is something else that could be fixed... but I digress http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe this would be flag for the computer to build a castle or overrun one of the building provinces if it had a chance, instead of seperating itself to be caught with it's pants down.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I'm not sure how much the trouble the AI should be having with supply. During my Dom II games I've gotten the impression supply is easier to come by then it seemed to be in Dominions 1. During my demo games I very very rarely get starving armies. During my recent game as jotunheim, completely ignoring supply I only had starvation 3 times. Once when most of my army gathered in the smallest supply province around, once when my excessive patrollers in my blood search province started starving (and unrest still went up pretty fast), and a third time when a lot of jotuns got completely cut off from my castles.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe its all cool, no hard feelings, because you were right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf has quoted a post by Kris, and I've seen that he asked about forts in it.
IMHO the AI should place forts in strategical locations, IE in deep homeland provinces, between 2 mountain edges, between 2 lakes etc. The key here that don't let the AI to build forward forts, that would be a waste. [Forward fort: placing a fort to a newly conquered border-province.]

[ November 13, 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

How about something simpler that would be "usually good enough". Such as, for every X number of provinces (5?)you own you should have a castle. Find a province with no castle, no neighboring castle, and no neighbor owned by another player, then build there. Maybe it should also have a minimum number of neighbors. 3? 4? 5?

And what about the cost? Should it be "do this before all recruiting"? I think that has worked for me (in fact Ive come to realize that I play rather like an AI). Doing it that way would tend to automatically provide some controlling limits since the AI would rarely (should rarely if other formulas are done right) be able to afford a castle at the beginning of a turn without saving up for one.

So the AI sees that it has 10 provinces and only 1 castle. If it finds a spot where a province has at least 4 neighbors with no castles, and none of them owned by another player, and IF it has enough money, then it builds a castle there. Oh yeah, and increase the defence (I always do that where I have a castle)

OH wait a minute. That would be better if it came first. In a province it feels is going to be a castle, it should raise defence to (21?) first and then build a castle. Hm that could get expensive.

OK stop me. I think too much in the mornings.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI should build 1 castle in every fourth province.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

1 per 4? Why? Should there be a distinction between land and water provinces? Should the number of forts be dependant on the number of players in the game? The size of the map? The cost of the fort?

Its far too easy to just say 'build 1 per X'. Of course doing that may be better than what there currently is, but I'd hope that the analysis of this question would try to incorperate more variables that are easily determined by the AI.

It shouldn't be that hard to find choke points anyway, in fact the simplest way to do it is for the map maker to designate certain provinces as choke points and let the AI work with that information. However, I doubt that is currently supported in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 13, 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

You could have the AI build a fort if there is a X amount of resources present or if those resources are not present within a 6 Province line then put it in one with most resources that is not adjacent to an enemy.

Also the behavior of an army to build a castle, are they going to take their main force and have them sit there while it's building or just place a small token force (with maybe some Provencials) and have the army more strategically placed.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes it is lot more complicated, haha.
However, the size of the map really matters?
Right now the AI won't build a fort almost ever.
We should post a nice detailed list that when should the AI build forts.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Maybe we should tell them when we build Fortresses of what type and why.

Then they could code the behavior of the AI to that.

I'm sure the MP guru's who play pure efficency vs themic could come up with some pure formula/reasons to it.

Like, how often in MP do you build a fort turn 10 or below?

Never?

How often in MP do you build a castle between turn 11-15? If so, why and where?

Questions like that.