Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That just means it's illegal to kill them. Not that I'm required to help them if they can't be bothered to help themselves and obviously seem to enjoy being poor, as they can't be bothered to make the effort to end this. America is supposed to be the land of opportunity: If you can't be bothered to do something about it, you deserve to be poor. Somebody's gotta be.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Parasite? I happen to be a taxpaying citizen who owes no money. I'm quite self-supporting, thank-you-very-much.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, this is how the animal world works. The unfitting die, the suited replicate. However, I assumed that you are a human and not an animal. Maybe I was wrong here.

[ July 28, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You falsely assume that humans are not animals. This is untrue, humans are simply a more sophisticated animal. If you truly believe humans are somehow a superior form of life, never forget that this is the process which made you. Don't turn your back on it so easily.

[ July 28, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And it still would be. Providing a hard bottom that people cannot fall below that allows them to avoid starving and suffering from poor health does not mean that they are experiencing a life of luxury.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said that society owes you success. I said that society owes you protection from starving to death and abject poverty.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can never understand why basic medical care isn't considered to be something that society should pay for. After all, people don't seem to have a problem with the sewer system being paid for by taxes, and that's the single most important part of your health care. After all, you as an individual wouldn't be hurt by dumping your own personal sewage into the river.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You would pay for them because you want better than the bare minimum.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The cost estimates I heard for providing healthcare for the 42 million uninsured people in the US are around $42 billion, which would work out to just over $140 per capita in the US (but there are a lot less taxpayers than people, so likely it'd be more than that per taxpayer). That would allocate just $1000 per uninsured person, which seems quite inadequate considering that standard health insurance here can cost $2000-$7000 (or quite a lot more!) for a person. I'm guessing that any plan that provides better than a bare minimum health care would also need to cost around the same amounts, so $80-300 billion is more likely the true cost for a good system. And of course this is not "universal health care" - it would provide zero benefit at all to anyone who already was paying for any level of coverage.

Is it worth it if it'll cost $300 billion? I'm not sure. My point is just that even just covering the uninsured and leaving everyone else to still pay as now will cost us a fair bit more than tens of dollars per year.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which you are doing by refusing to provide proper health care.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? Somebody always has to be poor? I wasn't aware that the shortage of resources in the U.S. was so acute that there was not enough food for every person.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You aren't nearly as self-supporting as you think you are.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That tens of dollars per year is in reference to unnecessary treatments, not to the total cost. My total cost for heatlth care is probably around $600-700 (30% of $2000 in taxes) per year since I happen to be in a lower tax bracket.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why? This encourages people to become leeches.

The compassionate part of me has sympathy for the elderly and the unfortunate. But the rational side of me thinks: if these folks had been less inept and/or foolish they'd not be in a situation now where they need help from others. Why should I reward the poor decisions they made in their lives? Example: if someone decides to have 8 children, and cannot afford to feed/clothe/care for more than 1, why must I (in the form of taxes) pay for their stupidity/irresponsibility? If you smoke, and get cancer, why should I have to pay a share (in the form of higher insurance costs) for the tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars it'll cost to deal with your foolishness? If you eat like a pig all your life, blimp out, and then get heart disease or colon cancer, why must everyone else be burdened by you?

Sorry, but people need to be responsible for themselves. The alternative is, eventually, a nonfunctional society in which very few support very many. A bankrupt society. We have too many people feeding at the public trough now, as is.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet, are you a R.A. Heinlein fan by any chance? If you haven't read any of his SF, you might want to check him out.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Speaking for myself, and not Norfy, I'm a big fan of the type of society expoused by RAH in Starship Troopers (the book, not the crappy movie). Citizen is a privilege, not a right, and must be earned. Citizenship has obligations.

EDIT: I also have almost all his books. Started reading him around 1966.

[ July 28, 2004, 21:54: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh - so someone who works 60 hours a week, takes good care of his family, looks after his friends, and volunteers to help people in his neighborhood find jobs, become literate, etc, is "a social parasite" because they don't care about the billions of people they don't personally know?

I'm not sure if you really are living in a world so out of touch with reality, or if it's just your venom for Norfleet getting the better of your common sense.

(And no - I'm not saying Norfleet is any of those things I said. But I know people who are like that; all they care about is their family and friends, and maybe some of them try to make a difference in their neighborhood. They for damn sure ain't parasites, social or otherwise.)

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a very old and dear friend who fits this description quite closely. And he's not even remotely a "social parasite". He also shares many other of the same beliefs that Norfleet has. We occasionally have some ... interesting debates. But he's a fine human being, a helluva lot better one than many so-called 'good' Christians that I know.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Speaking for myself, and not Norfy, I'm a big fan of the type of society expoused by RAH in Starship Troopers (the book, not the crappy movie). Citizen is a privilege, not a right, and must be earned. Citizenship has obligations.

EDIT: I also have almost all his books. Started reading him around 1966. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which ... makes you a big Heinlein fan, I would say? Myself, I thought some of his books were great - Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land especially; others were enjoyable diVersions (Glory Road, Have Spacesuit, Will Travel, Starship Troopers), and others were okay, with some interesting good facets. Some very good short stories as well (The Interesting Case of Mr Johnathan Hoag or some such).

His concepts of citizenship, personal responsibility being more important than laws, etc, were always a refreshing ongoing refrain throughout his works.

Towards the end, though, I thought his work was ... tripe. Pushed out en masse to pay bills or provide for his kids, or simply the product of dementia - who knows? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same as Herbert. Anderson. Pohl. Bova. Niven. And Clarke. Clarke hasn't written anything but 'tripe' in years, but he keeps churning the ... stuff out. Even Haldeman's Last sequel to 'Forever Wars' was junk. Seems none of the old authors can write anymore. And yes, this includes McAffery and Bradley.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If it actually encouraged people to become "leeches", as you've called them, then the majority of the industrialized world would be populated by these leeches. The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people _want_ to make it by themselves, and would rather that other people don't support them too much.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A person can easily be in such a situation through no fault of their own. A person should be allowed to fail, but this failure shouldn't bring them down to the point where they can't maintain the most basic level of care for themselves.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why isn't compassion for them reason enough?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone else is already burdened by these people, so moving it into a more visible place would probably be a good thing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And they still are responsible for themselves. They are not completely responsible for themselves, but no person ever can be.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a piece of Roman Catholic dogma I don't happen to agree with. Citing it proves nothing at all, except that you've been tainted by the indoctrination of the Church, and can no longer be trusted to be objective on the subject.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since this person clearly cares about people that he doesn't personally know, I'm not sure what your argument is. He obviously helps people he hasn't met before. Or would this person actually not care at all if a few billion people they haven't met yet suddenly died?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it is my personal venom for Norfleet coming through. He's continually claimed to be the kind of person who would be quite happy about the deaths of 4 or 5 billion people since it would make him better off.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What on earth are you talking about? I've never even read catholic dogma, so I have no idea where you got this particular notion.

I stated that no person can ever be completely responsible for themselves because no person is responsible for every aspect of their lives. There are always other people involved who make decisions that will either negatively or positively affect themselves.

Is one of those 8 children you mentioned responsible for being born? No, they aren't. Is an employee who's job is outsourced responsible for this? Nope.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, this is how the animal world works. The unfitting die, the suited replicate. However, I assumed that you are a human and not an animal. Maybe I was wrong here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You were Primz. Norfleet is not a real "human", from believes and intellectual points of view. One only need to read few dozens of his Posts to reilize this sad fact. Fortunately for the rest of us, his ideas and dilusions are only shared by few similar nutcase individuals, and have no influence on the outside world. Just ignore him and his nonsense, he is always trolling for the attention.

[ July 28, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And it still would be. Providing a hard bottom that people cannot fall below that allows them to avoid starving and suffering from poor health does not mean that they are experiencing a life of luxury.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When there are people, who are capable of working, who _refuse_ to work even when offered a job - let them starve.

I'm all for there being more jobs for people. I think that, for instance, jobless people could be put to work cleaning streets and vacant lots, doing manual labor in our municipal, state, and national parks. Doing things that the country would benefit from, at least at the local level.

Others could be paid for cooking food for the others working, or for doing laundry for them, or watching over the others kids. The ones who did good work, who showed responsibility, could be promoted to better positions.

But frankly - in this country there are a bunch of people who don't think they should _have_ to work. People with "Will Work for Food" signs - who spit and curse at you if you offer them some work.

Again - let 'em starve. If they get hungry enough, maybe they'll do some work.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lots of people who have been homeless and jobless can tell you that it's not hard to avoid starvation in this country. Soup kitchens, church Groups giving out food - even scavenging behind restaurants.

Starvation isn't much of an issue in the USA, at least not in urban areas.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again - what world are you living in? The sewage in the river would hurt _everyone_.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You would pay for them because you want better than the bare minimum. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/quote]

Who determines the bare minimum? The people who chose to live at the bare minimum? What happens when someone says, "It isn't right - they have food and shelter, but it's inhumane that they don't have cable television, and can't eat at McDonald's every day."

If enough people decide that the bare minimum is enough - what then? Let's say 50% of the population (all the men) decide, hey screw it - they got a sofa, a TV to watch the game, and enough money for beer at $8.99 a case, that's good enough. What then? Oh, and _then_ they vote that their standard of living should be higher.

Like I said - it'd be real nice if government were helping to provide jobs, which it isn't anymore. Looking after those who can't look after themselves - instead of dumping people from insane asylums (thank you Reagan and Bush). Providing at least child health care, instead of subsidies for corporations.

But to say that government has to ensure that the people have an _adequate_ life when they could get off their lazy arses and work???

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Coincidence, then, that you parrot one of their notions. Bound to happen, alas, since they've influenced (infected?) much of Western civilization.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes and no. Speaking as someone whose job was outsourced, and am presently unemployed, I can state that I'm not living on the street, nor am I depending on the goodness of others for my support. Unlike many, I prepared for the possibility. IOW, I was practicing personal responsibility.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am unable to understand how people can feel this way.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is why I didn't want to even bring it up in the first place. The social safety net in the U.S. is adequate in most ways.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as you have a nearby river your sewage only hurts people other than yourself. At the very least, universal medical coverage would help to keep people healthy and on the work force.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The bare minimum is the point where a person has enough food to eat without being malnourished, shelter to prevent them from freezing to death, and medical care so that the simple preventable and treatable illnesses can be dealt with. The only one there that's hard to define is the medical care one.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since this person clearly cares about people that he doesn't personally know, I'm not sure what your argument is. He obviously helps people he hasn't met before. Or would this person actually not care at all if a few billion people they haven't met yet suddenly died?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He's not "caring about people he doesn't personally know" - he's helping people, in his neighborhood, whom he does get to know. Perhaps more importantly, he's helping people who are willing to help themselves.

He's _not_ sending money to Gloria Struthers to feed the starving kids in the Philipines, and he doesn't much care about the well being of the trailer park trash single mother with 8 kids.

You don't have to care about the faceless billions in order to not be a "social parasite". Arguably, anyone with a decent productive job (as opposed to CEOs, politicians, ambulance chasers and used car salesmen) is a productive member of society, paying taxes, providing for their family, and not a social parasite. Even if they don't do a damn thing for the homeless, jobless, spineless, etc.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am unable to understand how people can feel this way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which one? The ones refusing to work, or those not caring if the lazy sods die?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or perhaps it's because the notion happens to be correct.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yet you still are not completely responsible for everything that happens in your life. After all, it wasn't your decisions that led to outsourcing.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. It's a value judgment you (and others) have made. It's not an immutable law of the universe.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. Perhaps I need that health care for myself. It's my money. Don't they have their own money? If they think it's really that bad, I can lend them some duct tape. Duct tape has worked for me when I couldn't afford to seek medical treatment. They can make it work for them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You seem to think that resources are unlimited and that everyone can be rich. That is not the case. If everyone were rich, we'd simply have inflation. Some people will always be of below average means. And there's plenty of food....provided you are not picky. Not everyone can afford wine and caviar, but rats are free. Hell, people will pay you to be rid of them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That which I cannot take care of myself, I can pay someone to do it. The key here is that I pay for what I consume: I don't expect a handout. When I didn't have enough money for it, I learned to do without. If I become sick, I can pay a doctor. If I can't afford to pay a doctor, I'll learn to do without. What an amazing concept.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Being starving and suffering is a great motivation to succeed. I certainly wouldn't have been motivated to succeed in life if I thought living out of a jeep between jobs was all that. Some people, however, seem to want nothing more than that: For them, if this is provided FOR FREE, they have no incentive to do anything more than be a leech. Since they have no income, they won't be paying anything back. Why support this?

A hard bottom is a cardboard box in an alley and a tasty "you kill it, you grill it" rat-on-a-stick. The means to survive always exists. People have survived for millenia. They can do so again.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, society owes you the opportunity to avoid starving to death and remaining in abject poverty. If you choose to simply be a leech, you deserve to starve and remain in poverty.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because without a sewer system, somebody, upstream, is dumping his crap into my drinking water. And I'd be dumping my crap into somebody downstream. I think it's worth paying up to avoid dealing with this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, but if you don't support the sewer system, you're doing this dumping at somebody else's expense....and somebody else is dumping at yours.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The minimum is a cardboard box in an alley. This costs you nothing. Somebody will surely have a cardboard box they'll let you have. If you're lucky, you might even be arrested for vagrancy and get to spend the night in a cell with Bubba.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've read some of his work, and rather enjoyed it. My memory is slightly fuzzy about details at the moment, so don't ask me for specifics.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's hard to starve in ANY urban area. Between particularly bad jobs, I often didn't have any cash on me. I couldn't afford to pay food, and even if I could, I certainly couldn't afford to be noticed. You know what? I learned to do without. Have I mentioned how tasty rats are?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, that's the excuse that is used to justify the system. These people have family. Friends. Church Groups. Why can't they ask THESE people for help? These people surely care about them. Why can they not get help there?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A little bit of suffering and hardship builds character. It *IS* their fault, for not having anticipated this, and not being willing to DEAL.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why isn't compassion for them reason enough?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because compassion costs money. I have a finite amount of money. Therefore, I have a finite amount of compassion. My compassion is first reserved for those people who I think are genuinely deserving of my help. People who I think will someday perhaps be able to pay me BACK. Not people who are complete idiots and will spend my money on digging themselves a deeper hole.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There you have it. Let them suffer in public. Let them serve as an object lesson to others. When they die horribly in a pool of their own blood and vomit, I'll gladly pony up the tax money to hire someone to have their stinking carcass removed.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Oh, wait a second! I've been out of work for over four months (laid off, Marine and programmer always employed for 22 years straight), I should be supporting Graeme and the welfare state! Yes! Someone should subsidize me for life - after all, if I can't find another tech job, god forbid I should get a job as a rentacop, prison guard, short order cook, or anything else that would be beneath me - it'd be a waste of my talents! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then good for him. This just means that he cares more for those people he knows than doesn't know. This is normal.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And he wouldn't be upset if they were murdered in their sleep? After all, Norfleet's argument would be that they deserved to be killed, since they must not have protected themselves well enough.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, you don't need to care very much about them. Since Norfleet has demonstrated that his fictional characterization of himself is a parasite for many other reasons, this is simply another demonstration of that.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is not a value judgement at all. No person can be completely responsible for their life because no person can completely control all factors that influence their life. You might argue about the relative amounts of responsibility, but there are _always_ factors that cannot be controlled, even if their effects are not significant enough to be measured.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this going to replace FO/FO2's iguana-on-a-stick?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, if I had an unlimited supply of cash, I wouldn't mind helping everyone. But I don't! So you know what? I have to set priorities: Who deserves my help, who dug their own grave and should learn to dig themselves out of it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, life's hard. I fully agree that it would be tragic, but hey, times are tough. **** happens, people die every day. Life goes on. As tragic and unfortunate as this must be to the friends and family of the deceased, to me, it has no impact. To you, it also has no impact. Do you donate money to the families of every single murder victim in the world? I don't think so. So don't criticize me for being honest about it. I didn't see you donating any money to the family of my friend's nephew who was killed 8 years ago in a drive-by shooting.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am not a "fictional characterization". I pay my bills on time. I don't owe money. I donate more money to charity than you even earn. I am veteran. So don't go calling *ME* a parasite, you hypocrite. How much blood have you shed for YOUR country?

[ July 28, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. You've confused being responsible for everything that happens in your life with accepting responsibility for your own life. In the latter case, you do not make excuses as to "why am I in this mess?" You deal with it. No crying and whining, no looking for others to bail you out.

If everyone did this, we would not have:

* pollution
* crime
* high divorce rates
* wars

and damned near every other problem we have.

[ July 28, 2004, 22:58: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since other people are also paying for your health care, that wouldn't be a problem.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a strawman. I have not stated that everyone should be rich, or even that everyone should be well off. I have stated that everyone should be not starving, and not diseased. You can still be well below average and fall into these two categories. Your continual use of logical fallacies indicates that you are not able to actually make an argument. I suggest that you learn to debate before continuing.

I've snipped the rest of your garbage here where you demonstrate that you actually enjoy in the suffering of others.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why should the person who is upstream of everyone else pay for the sewer system? That's what your argument about health care is after all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A cardboad box in an alley will not prevent you from freezing to death for eight months of the year.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are making the fallacious assumption that all people have such support Groups. Your continual use of logical fallacies indicates that you are not able to actually make an argument. I suggest that you learn to debate before continuing.

I've also snipped the remanider of your statements where you continue to do nothing more than parrot your immature "I'm the only one who actually matters" spiel.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No person can be responsible for everything that happens in his life, but every person is responsible for coping with his own life. You made your choices, and so you must take the good with the bad. When times are good, you save for when times are bad. If you squander your resources when times are good on pampered luxury, and are broken when **** happens, well, that was your decision. I don't see why I should have to suffer because you couldn't accept the fundamental truth that **** happens, and squandered all your resources on beer.

In Dominions II, when a plague hits your capitol on turn 3 because you took Death and Misfortune, well, tough. You deal. Did you expect your opponents to give you a handout to cover you in your time of need? I don't think so.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I haven't. The only reason that a person should have to accept responsibility for things that they haven't personally caused is that you are too greedy to help them.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He's still dumping at everyone else's expense. It's not unfair to ask him to pay up for that. Health care is NOT the same. My being a healthy person, or paying for my own damn treatment, does not, in any way, detract from anyone else's health and well-being.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shows how little you know about professional homeless people. They don't freeze for 8 months of the year. They hitchhike to Florida and ride out the winter in warmth, and relative comfort. It's not as if they have moving expenses, cardboard boxes being what they are. I used to be homeless. I lived out of a car. Don't lecture me about how to survive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So. You have no friends. No family. You can't take care of yourself. You can't be bothered to save for a rainy day, nor get a job. Exactly what is your value, your worth? What do you contribute to society, anyway? If everyone hates you and you can't take care of yourself, maybe you deserve to die. Why do you somehow deserve more than what others are willing to give you of their own free will? Maybe if you had been more involved with the people in your lives, you'd actually HAVE people in your lives. Funny how you should be hearing this from ME, of all people. Maybe if you can't be more independent, you should try to be more social, you know? I feel no pity for someone who can't be bothered to take the steps needed to survive. If someone cannot be bothered to care even for himself, why should I care for him?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you are. You're nothing more than a teenager living in your parents house.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or perhaps because *I* am saving my resources so that I do not end up like him. Perhaps because *I* happen to have foresight, and know that all good things come to an end, and someday, I might be just like him....if I do not prepare and save for it. Life is like a sandwich. Some days you eat the sandwich, other days the sandwich eats you.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Meh, you say that, yet I don't see you doing much better. I think this is what we call "projection". Get a job, Graeme. Move out. Once you move out of the pampered world of being a student living in your parents' come, and try going hungry for a bit, you'll understand what I mean.

[ July 28, 2004, 23:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have much of an understanding of economics, do you. If you are not healthy, then you cannot produce economic output.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it shows how ignorant you are of weather in any parts of the world outside of your own narrow little worldview.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because a person's life has value simply because of the fact that they are human. If you can't understand this basic fact, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amen. What a tragedy that would be. Because there's no worse fate than being a rent-a-cop or prison guard, eh? At least it beats "Would You Like Fries With That?". Look, Graeme. Another fictional characterization belonging to a teenager living in his parents' basement is disagreeing with you. Amazing! Or maybe we aren't all like you, you see?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it's called observation. You haven't demonstrated a great deal of maturity, have no time committments, and have demonstrated that you are still stuck at the ethical level of a child. If you aren't actually a teenager then you definetly lead a sad existence.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would I go hungry? I'm a graduate engineering student who hasn't lived with or depended on my parents for over six years. I have no debts, pay my bills every month, and could get any number of well-paying jobs if I decided to quit grad school.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Do you guys never sleep or spend your time anywhere else?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What welfare state? I wasn't aware that the equivalent of making health insurance mandatory and universal was the equivalent of a welfare state. I'm not supporting a comfortable lifestyle for those people who don't want to work, and suggesting that I am is nothing more than a strawman. I am suggesting that a person should be guaranteed enough resources so that they aren't malnourished, as long as they don't waste those resources on anything that is unnecssary. If they want to waste that money, then yes, let them starve, but at least try and help their children so that they don't end up like their parents.

This is all really beside the real point though, which is that a universal health care system would do a great deal to help people. Many other industrialized nations manage to both spend less per person on health care, while maintaining a better overall quality of care, and still requiring people to cover the majority of the cost themselves in some way.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm writing programs that take several minutes to compile, while running simulations that take several hours/days to finish, so I have a fair amount of downtime.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tough. Think of it as incentive to get better. Never underestimate the power of positive thinking, after all. Besides, you can produce output even while not healthy. It'll just require that you suffer. But you know what? No pain, no gain.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have travelled far more of the world than you likely have. I am aware that people have legs for a reason: So that when conditions do not suit them, they can get off their fat asses and MOVE. It's not like yours were shot off in the war, like some people I know. Those people deserve my compassion. Those who simply can't be bothered to do something on their own, even though they certainly CAN, don't.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not see why I should place more value on someone's own life than they place on it themselves. Your life is not worth more to a total stranger than it is to you. People should run their own lives. If somebody feels that running his own life is too burdensome and would rather be someone else's responsibility, maybe he should sell himself into slavery. At least then he will have an owner who will be obligated to protect his investment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have no time commitments because I am comfortably and independently retired. Something YOU might wish to aspire to. I have the ethical level of a child? Maybe my ethics don't agree with yours, but I have a clear and consistent code by which I live, and am not a psychotic axe murderer.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you've been fortunate your entire life. That puts you in a great position to comment on the misfortunes of others, now doesn't it? I, on the other hand, have been in the position of being UNABLE TO AFFORD said healthcare, food, and lodging. You know what? I SURVIVED. Oddly, you don't see me advocating that this stuff be made available to all at somebody else's expense.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even if there is only a .0000000001% chance that God does exist is more then enough reason to do what's right or risk burning in Hell eternally.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">God doesn't stop mankind from doing Evil actions such as killing, suicide or abortion, however mankind is expected to stop Evil. Just because the United States could make prostitution, abortion, suicide and using addictive drugs legal doesn't mean we should accept them as some pro-choice decision for our family and children.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's where you turn to the Bible and read where only mankind is referred to as having a soul. When that soul is created is only known by God therefore saying abortion is okay could get someone into big trouble during judgment day.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you are obviously telling the truth when you describe your life.

Apparently you:
Drive a tank throughout the town you live in.
Don't sleep for days at a time.
You'be been shot in the back by people before while not at war.
Believe that if a person can do something that they must have actually done that thing.
You live as a hermit, wear kevlar, and travel while heavily armed.

That such a person exists anywhere outside of a mad max movie strains believability.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I just read as much of this thread as I could stand, which while not impressive on a percentage basis, leads me to make the following comment:

I think there is a unifying theme to the objections of the conservatives, "lazy sods for rejecting opportunity and economic empowerment" and the horror of the liberals, regarding lassiez-faire social services (up to "nature red in tooth and claw") aka some primtivist Hobbesian nightmare.

The difference is one that plays out quite strkingly in the differences between the Clinton and Bush Jr. administrations.

The conservatives (both on this board, and the ones running the show from the White House) like to work from expedient *principles* and have faith that everything will turn out swimmingly, or at least as well as can be expected in an imperfect world.

Liberals on the other hand, tend to attempt a more complex optimization where the *consequences* of a policy or behavior is paramount, and believe the amelioration of crippling economic conditions (which lead to antisocial behavior fairly consistently) is a necessary step in maintaining the society in the civilized sense of the word.

I tend to favor the latter view, since I'm not sure that a very small percentage of the population having a very large proportion of the assets in a democracy (a natural, indeed *inevitable* result of unbridled capitalism) is likely to have a positive effect on the quality of life of the population at the median.

Take gun control for example. Repulicans are in favor of free gun ownership, because people have a right to self-defense.

This is plausible enough. In principle it seems like it should elegantly self-equilibriate.

The actual data shows, however, that the effect of widespead gun possession, is that people use the guns, on each other and themselves, in a way that exacerbates the effects of their innate aggression.

This is why liberals everywhere attempt to restict freedom of access, not something they

If the most advanced easily available weapon technology was a particularly foul-smelling wet herring, fatal outcomes in violent situations would be far less common.

Note that in most first world republics, personal firearms are much harder to obtain, with a very pronounced effect of murder and even suicide rates, even where improvements on herring have been made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


Bush, in my view, has a problem in that he appears to be immune to negative reinforcement.

The inabilty to admit error is not a useful quality in an ruler. This is compounded by his confusion on the concept of leadership.

Leaders require followers, which further mandates, in the long term, both well thought out policy and flexibility in implementing it.

I almost hope he wins so he has to clean up his own mess. Almost.

But overall, I agree with the person who was shuddering uncontrollably in fear of what 4 more years of this administration, with no election at the end to keep them constrained, would be like.

My issue with the Republicans isn't that they aren't Democrats, (who are it must be admitted enslaved to a much more diverse group of special interests! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) but that they aren't even democrats.

I expect the voter fraud we saw in 2000 is going to seem minor compared to what is coming, even ignoring the probable (dogwagging) October surprise.

Plutocracy, corporate feudalism and Christian Fascism are not pretty ideologies, particularly when employed running the alpha superpower on the highly militarized planet.

Human beings are just monkeys with hypertrophic cerebral cortices. The thalamic reptile brain is still down there, and appears to be running the show.

Lord help us.


Rabe the Political Nutjob