Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"Why should Pangaea be playing with Undead? Doesn't feel right."

I totally agree man, that is kind of a strange aspect about this game. Oh, and SCs don't always help that much, btw. Damn Air Queen!!!

So, what are we planning on doing here, Jeffr? I am Earth Attacking Jurri 4x a turn, also assassinating at least once a turn, so I'm killing off his researchers and various other mages. I'm also inciting unrest across his empire. It appears to be working, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's still not hurting too bad for cash.

I have one good army that will take the AQ to stop, I guess. Whenever she shows up, that army is likely toast. So, it's not like I can be invading him very effectively, I'll do what I can.

He is slowly gobbling up my uncastled provinces.. If you have anything good going on there, try to do it as quick as possible. I'll see how many of his SCs I can kill... Sigh. Unless you have some sweet stuff in reserve, I think we are doomed.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I had some small advances, but I can't seem to stop his combination of ghost riders and Tartarians. He hit me with about 7 Ghost Riders last turn. Where does he get the gems if he's also pelting you with GR?

He is also taking my provinces now so it doesn't look good.

I killed one of his Air Queens last turn (along with a few air elementals and some sylphs - mabye that group that you faced?). I also killed an Ice Devil and luckily (no pun intended) charmed one of his Tartarians, so now that particular bad boy is working for the good guys in green http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I took one of his castles as well in that battle, but it's a farm province and didn't have any gem sites.

In the Feldan Forest, he has another Air Queen and a Tartarian along with about 70 odd pieces of other crap. He has about 20 Jade Sorceress hanging around, too.

I continue to try to pressure him, but it's not looking good. But, I'm going to go down swinging, and you never know what can happen, so keep at http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"I killed one of his Air Queens last turn (along with a few air elementals and some sylphs - mabye that group that you faced?)"

Sweet!! Yes, that was the group. Wow, that almost gives me hope. Maybe we can pull this one out after all, Jeffr. Is he attacking you at all? As long as you are gaining provinces, even if I lose provinces, maybe it won't matter. He's just got to be hurting from my earth attacks, and it seems like you've managed to take down a bunch of his SCs.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Hell, I'm being outmaneuvered left and right! Great going, guys, I might lose yet... Although my sleeves are far from empty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I agree that the flavor of the game suffers from the, well, unbalance in the units. There still are enough viable options to stay interesting, strategy-wise, so it's tolerable.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Pst Jurri, any pointer on the use of Air Queens? All the Air Queens I summoned in the past became "Air Queen sauce", succulent food for the connoisseur, but slightly too expensive for my tastes.

Oh, and keep on fighting him! Fight to the last scout! Throw blood saves at him if they are you last fighters! Jurri must be crushed! Wait for him to make mistakes, and strike him down when he has fallen! Exclamation points shall rule the world!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"Is he attacking you at all? As long as you are gaining provinces, even if I lose provinces, maybe it won't matter."

Yeah, he's attacking me. He's taken seven of my provinces so far. So, we need to take some of his, somehow.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I think taking provinces from him will be hard. He's got two Air Queens in reserve in the center of his empire waiting to strike at either one of us, I guess. Whoever makes a move first.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

A bad turn for the boys in green and the end draws nigh. We're emptying the wine cellars for one last party, Pangaean style, before the Tartarians, Air Queens and other crap storm the gates. But the good news is that I have some ideas for the next game. That's assuming that I remember, of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I should really write this stuff down.

CUknown: Jurri has at least 2 Air Queens, so I guess he re-summoned the one I killed.

I wonder why my Moloch didn't cast Immolation (2F, fatigue 20) on herself but rather chose to cast Protection on a PD Satyr instead? She had about 60 fatigue at the time (which is a bad thing in and of itself for a melee type, but I made a host of mistakes with her).

Jurri is carrying around some Air Elementals with his Air Queen. Is it possible to summon these outside of combat?

What was interesting in this game is that the only war I initiated was with Jurri at the end. I initially thought that I had made a mistake, but as it turns out, he was already too far advanced, so waiting would only have made things worse. The thing is, I couldn't have really attacked any sooner as I was involved from the outset in wars (which was Ok with me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Aella has the ability to Summon Allies, and those allies are genuine Air Elementals.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif Why, oh why does everyone hate me so...*sob* *sob*

As to the AQs, youre asking just the wrong guy: I think their average lifespan when summoned by me is still around 3 turns. Man, I went through them quicker than shirts in Clash! That said, one way to field them is to give her a staff of storms, a couple of air boosters, quickness armor and set to cast summon storm power, wrathful, living clouds, living clouds, living clouds, spells. Very costly gem-wise, but can take down various enemy set-ups. Easyish to counter too, but if you incorporate another AQ with SC gear (the same stuff you put on a Bane Lord) to the team it gains a lot of versatility.

@jeffr: I guess the Moloch didn't have a target within range for Immolation. Doesn't it require enemies within 7 squares of the caster? Hence the way to use it, I guess, could be buff, attack a turn, immolation.

The elementals are summoned by Aella, the third AQ. Whilst hiding from CUnknown they had some free time...

I did my best to incite your neighbors to attack you, too, to keep you out of my hair while I collected the stuff I needed to crack your impregnable white centaurs. Guess we don't know yet if it was enough, but we soon will! Expect some crazy [censored] in Feldan Forest come next turn... (A bold move, that!)

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"I guess the Moloch didn't have a target within range for Immolation"

But immolation is cast on the caster. It has an AOE of 7, sort of like an enhanced fire shield I thought. I've seen it work before. Here is the description:

"The caster bursts into white-hot flames, badly burning everyone within range. Armor offers little protection against the flames. The spell will consume the caster if he is unprotected."

So you were behind the attacks eh? I wasn't surprised about Arco, but I was surprised Pythium attacked me. I can't really remember, but I think I wouild have (eventually) attacked you instead of them, because you were closer. So, good job there.

"but we soon will! Expect some crazy [censored] in Feldan Forest come next turn"

Oh, great, can't wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I figured, what the hell, might as well go down in "charge of the light brigade" fashion rather than cowering behind my walls. Time is not on my side.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Well, not Arco (didn't need to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) but I did try my hardest with Pythium and Man (only he disappeared just then). Only Azhur knows what it amounted to, though...

If there aren't any enemies within 7 squares of the caster, the tac AI won't use immolation - and a good thing too, since it's a one-time effect, unlike fire shield. So it's more like an even shorter range flame eruption. (Thus the proposed script to get the caster mixed with the enemy!)

True, you don't have much of a choice far as the attack goes... It's surprisingly effective, your army. Hell, it's better than CUnknown's Bane Lord -filled armies for this purpose, blitzing to my castle and storming it. I don't even know if my counter-plan will work! This is interesting, indeed!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Go Jeffr!!

Kill more AQs!!!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Kill them yourself, you slacker! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Ah well, back to the drawing board http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

What happened? It looks like you won the battle, Jeffr. Did you kill any AQ's? How are your forces looking?

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

What's the term I'm looking for? Ah, yes, "Not Exactly" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I lost the battle of the Feldan Forest. I'm still besieging the fort with a few hawks. Why would you say it looks like I won the battle?

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I don't have a spy there.. I thought you won because you still were seiging the castle. I mean, Jurri didn't win the battle completely, right? If he did, he'd be in full ownership of the province.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I didn't kill any Air Queens, although he has one there, along with a load of other crap. I did charm an Arch Devil and the Pocket Knight, who promptly became paralyzed and dead, respectively. He summoned so many skeletons it brought my old graphics card to it's knees. My surviving guys eventually routed, dying as they had nowhere to go.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Heh, I wanted the strategical advantage of moving first, hence I didn't try to break siege. Besides, jeffr could have reinforced his army if I had broken siege.

The skeletons were just a fall-back plan, sorry to have killed your machine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I couldn't watch the battle through myself, as relief-casting seems to be too much for even my machine to handle when there are a couple thousand dudes on the battlefield. Apparently my counter-charmer got the AD back, or else CU is running some version other than 2.15 and I never lost it in the first place...

What I don't get is how could my mummy have lost a magic duel... He had astral 2 base, a skullcap, 8 communion slaves, power of the spheres cast, for a total of S7. Against your S2 guys he should have either won or both should have died (1/36 chance); however, the second duel killed my guy yet yours lived! Is magic duel still bugged as all hell?

You, too, would have benefited from securing a retreat, if you guys don't mind me sounding like a broken record... 10 of your mages survived the battle as did 14 centaurs or some such!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Oh, man, sorry CU! You're gonna hate this one... The battle in Resting Heghts, that was what I call lame! (Although I had prepared for the possibility by choosing the defensive side via teleport, I hoped my Draco would be able to attack your mages at some point due to some glitch in the imps.) The one in Meer, well, you're likely to hate it as much, but I hope it will give you insight to the whole WS/AQ/Air Elemental matter.

jeffr: You continue to surprise me. That Moloch totally blind-sided me! Other than that it's looking a bit glum for you guys. That is to say, it's looking good for me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Interesting: it is at least the second time Magic Duel doesn't quite work as expected. My current hunch is that Light of the Northern Star doesn't affect Magic Duel results (and/or perhaps Power of the Spheres); don't ask me why I think those spells are the problem. Another option, of course, is that the spell still doesn't work as intended. Hmm, that deserves a quick test...

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Believe me, Jurri, that first battle before gave me plenty of insight into the whole AQ thing. Without mental attacks or lightning immunity, there's not a whole lot you can do. There really should be an item that allows you to fly in storms or something, it's too much of an advantage for only one type of SC to have.

Yeah, the Resting Heights battle was lame. But, omg is your pretender powerful as hell. I hope that thing costs a lot of points!

I give when you give, Jeffr.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Gift of Kurgi! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Winged Helmet used ta, but no more, too bad... I sure would like it if there was some item or spell or both that allowed it.

My pretender is really a work of art in itself, even if I do say so myself. I wanted it to be able to make the turn 1-3 kill and secure my holdings in the mid-game. It also has wish-potential for late game! And had points for order 3, magic 2 left over after taking dominion 10 (!)... With only death 1 and misfortune 2 to accompany the sloth and cold 3. I'd say the Dracolich is undercosted for its power in the Zen mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And not by a little, at that!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"I give when you give, Jeffr."

Do you really think there is no hope? It doesn't seem like it, although I have my Moloch back (woohoo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and I'm willing to keep trying for a while if you are.

Jurri, you played a great game. Did you ever even build a national unit? I don't remember seeing any non PD Giants, or even Jotunheim mages, but we didn't meet for a while so mabye I missed them.

I look forward to our next game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I think there's no hope because I had three powerful armies that all died doing basically nothing. I don't know what else to do but to make another one of them....but I doubt they'd be able to do anything either.

The things I am doing that are actually having an effect are: inciting unrest with spies, and assassinating his mages with earth attack and with actual assassins. I'm pretty sure he's hurting for money, more or less. But then again, so am I. I'm also pretty sure that I can kill almost all of his mages if we keep playing for another 15-20 turns. But, what does that really get us? He'll still wipe us out with his SCs. If he gets some good money provinces from us, he'd be able to replace the mages anyway.. But, I can count on a good 5 mages killed a turn.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Not really, I guess... I did build a coupla archers on turn 1 to assist the mercs in cracking Boron's fort, do those count? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif The fact of the matter is, that Jotun troops have maybe the worst effectivity/cost ratio of any national troops. You need an insane amount of them to really take advantage of their strengths, and that's gonna cost like hell. The problem, as I'm sure you know, is the morale: the poor giants have to roll, like, thrice as many morale checks as regular joes without having that much better morale. Sure sure, you could include some hirdmen or some such but they suck in other areas and are expensive... Think, I can get a 7rp/turn mage (with my magic 2) for the price of three stinking giants! And said mage will certainly be more effective on the battlefield, with Nether Bolt/Darts and all.

The mages I of course have in oodles. So much so that I'm not going to do anything to CU's earth attacks, as it's a good thing if he wastes 20 earth gems a turn to kill my mages. Frees up money to buy forts, and I don't really need them anymore since you don't have any armies that would require their particular abilities to defeat. And of course I've my research done since a while ago. (Well, not done done, but you know what I mean!)

I've managed to secure enough of an earth income that I can equip some scouts with flying boots and gate cleavers, in case you're wondering how this troopless paradigm handles forts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif In the mid-game I used vine ogres and wolves to take down Pasha's forts, but the ogres are dead and well past their prime, effectivity-wise, anyway... Other than that, I really didn't even plan to take forts before this, trusting on my dragon to keep me safe from outside intervention before the SC-train was ready to leave http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You guys should get me drunk more often, look how gabby I get! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif And I wanna fight ya both again some time, too... Hey, come join the Yet another Game, it hasn't yet started.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I don't know. You've proven, I think, from a competitive standpoint, 95% (or more) of the stuff in Dominions is useless. It really doesn't matter what nation you take as long as the mages are good enough to get you to the few summons and spells that matter. Don't get me wrong. A lot of people like this. Your strategy is just the purest form of the mage/summons/castling winning strategy that I've seen so far. I could also be missing something and talking out my a** http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It's also possible that I'm just a sore loser and want the game to function as I want it to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's just that there is so much variety present in Dom2, I think it's a shame all most all of it seems to be just fluff. I doubt the designers intended for it to be this way.

Maybe all of Zen's mods need to be used together if the intention is to inject a little variety into the game. On that note, maybe you should post your Dracolich strategy in the Zen mod thread. I think they are looking for feedback. As you mention, it seems that the Dracolich is either underpriced or should have his immortality removed (not a good idea, in my opinion) or his protection and/or defense reduced or something. But, maybe not.

But, I'm stubborn. So I'll play again, try to counter your troopless strategy (without resorting to the same strategy myself - no point in that, it's been done), and probably end up in the same situation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It is fun, though, trying to think of counters. It's called "Yet another game", you say? I'll have to check it out to see if there are any crazy rules or if the map is too big. I played one game on Faerun (sp?) and never again, man.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Oh, I don't think so! At least in my experience games can be won with different means too. Certainly it's important to acknowledge the role SCs and castles and such play in the game, but the way I played this one is not the only way to go. In my opinion, that is; obviously a segment of the players disagree considering the various balance-mods. Which are cool, too, at least you don't get bored trying to think your way out of the same box every time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Now that I think about it, I think this is the first time I've used such a pure-bred SC-strat... Seemed to fit the settings particularly well, that's all.

I guess I should, but my impression is that there is always someone waiting just to say how much I suck for not seeing the obvious way to counter the strat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gifThat is to say, I'm not wholly impressed of the way the community functions when someone proposes any balance-related arguments. Just check the latest in that self-same thread. The dialect is too much for my tender sensibilities. Yeah, I'm a wuss.
Yeah:
The link to the thread
Nothing too wonky. Aside from all kinds of diplomacy being banned http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Old Diplomacy-players recognize the 'gunboat'-variant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Gotta be fun... And the roster looks great, too!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

"So much so that I'm not going to do anything to CU's earth attacks, as it's a good thing if he wastes 20 earth gems a turn to kill my mages."

I was really trying to get to your clam-carriers, I know you've got them! Are hidden scouts unable to be targeted by earth attacks?
I guess they are. Oh well.


"Now that I think about it, I think this is the first time I've used such a pure-bred SC-strat... Seemed to fit the settings particularly well, that's all."

Well...I was really trying to improve the effectiveness of national armies under these settings. I disagree that these settings encourage a castle-and-cast strategy -- you'll be overrun in the early game by someone who built an army! However, no one attacked you in the early game, you had an overpowered god, and you were next to Man (who didn't do much and quit after like 5 turns or something). Actually, you would have been impossible to kill in the early game with your immortal dragon god (what were they thinking???) and 10 dominion.

Under normal circumstances, these settings would encourage having armies, I think.

I am going to turn off the game, unless someone objects?

Congradulations, Jurri!

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Ok, I concede.

Congratulatios, Jurri! And good game to everyone else, as well.

I look forward to the next game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Alas, I think you should remove the "balance-related arguments" part, and simply put "anything" instead. I must admit I feel as if getting *any* chance is a struggle in itself, even a cosmetic thing like grammar, so balance arguments are even worse. I guess that was what Mose Hansen labelled "the conservatism of the place". Shame.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Good game all!
That one was quick and painless...Oh, wait, I didn't play this one. In any event, it was a fine game. I see Jeff getting a little discouraged about the 'power' spells in Dominions. Well, some spells are obviously POWERFUL compaired to many less effective spells. But like Jurri says, 'There is more than one way to skin an Ulm.'
Recently I witnessed an army (TURN 30) destroy Caelum's Wraithful Skies, Storm, AQ, False Horror strategy. Previously I was leaning to the opinion that Caelum was unstoppable.
Jurri could have well been stopped this game. Understand though that he was Allied with both Ulm and Ermor (while Ulm and Ermor were at war). That's a pretty fine piece of diplomacy. On top of that, Norfleet is the only player I know who could beat Jurri without breaking a sweat. (That's not a compliment to Norfleet).
Party on fools.
-Yc

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Thank you all, 'twas a great game indeed! But you flatter me Cactus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif, I ain't that tough. What was the army like that stopped the Caelian Catastrophe?

@Alneyan: All too true. I'm sure it's the same with any other hardcore strategy game, though, so I guess it's an inevitable side-effect of intelligent people gathering... Which is too bad, really.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

He uses a Triplebless for Mictlan . S9F9W9 .
Those Jaguarwarriors are beautiful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif .

These Scales are only possible because it is a teamgame with 5 two player teams fighting against each other .
But Mictlan could afford a F9W9 bless in a normal game and that would be almost as good .

The jaguars are quite fast and extremely cheap . And Mictlan has holy4 priests for blessing .
1 such jaguar warrior is about as strong as a devil , maybe even a bit stronger .
Imho the jaguar warrior is the best recruitable troop in the game .
True a Van or a White centaur is more powerful but you get 3,5 Jaguars per Van/White centaur .

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Heyda, my old ally!

Great game! It was really funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Clap clap clap clap.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

D'you guys want an encore or what? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

We could do a rematch. Um..If I'm hosting again (I don't mind it), I'm not sure exactly how I want the next game to look like. Do people like the 9 prov start thing? I'm thinking about Zen's other mods and about SC's recruitable balance mod. I really don't know what to do.

I do know I want to make Dracoliches illegal!!! And possibly do something about ghost riders, make it cost like at least 8 gems to cast. Does Zen's spell mod touch ghost riders at all?

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Yay, yay, please host! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm down with any settings, really, and any mods. (A victory condition would be nice, though.) The 9 prov start on a crowded wraparound was certainly amusing but I'm not sure if it would be a second time.

Start a new thread for this, won't ya?

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I'd be up for another game.

Someone in the Zen Concept thread posted some readme's. It sounds good to me. Here is the bit about ghost riders:

Ghost Riders needs death magic 6 (was 4)

and Wrathful Skies:

Wrathful Skies needs 6 air magic (was 3)
Wrathful Skies costs 400 fatigue (was 200)

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

I found the spell readme. quantum_mechanic created it.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...adme_v1_80.txt

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Legions of Steel needs 2 earth magic (was 3)

Weapons of Sharpness needs 4 earth magic (was 5)


Gasp Gasp Gasp


We're playing this!!!!!!
I'm Ulm!!!!!

Hehe, I get excited over the smallest things.

Re: Basking in the glory of Jotunheim!
 

Don't forget the army of gold for E4: an absolute killer, if you ask me! (Heck, I'd want Vanheim or Ulm just to cast that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)