Re: Gygjas
 

Haha, I've got one =) I made it for use with the Recruitable Rebalance Test Game, but it uses an older version of Daesthai's Spell Tome (1.15) and thus some of the spells were slightly off (a couple site-search spells had incorrect costs, and a couple spells were the wrong level, and a couple of names were mispelled). So it's good that you're not hosting it because it still has a few errors, though they have not affected the game at all.

Since the Recruitable Rebalance game started, Daesthai has released a new Tome revision, and I've examined every spell in the Tome and compared them to the in-game spellbook, so if there are any errors, they have escaped both Daesthai and myself (and some other people who looked at the Tome). I strongly doubt there are any major errors, or more than 1-2 trivial errors. That data is the basis for the current Magic Null Mod.

I set up an excel file to easily generate mods based on certain parameters... but unfortunately, it only affects spells, not magical artifacts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Still, if you give me some rules (like "No spells whatsoever above level 4" or "all spells over level 4 should cost double, and all spells over level 5 should cost triple" or "all blood summons should cost at least 100 slaves" or "all Death-gem summons should be disabled" or "No evocation over level 5") I'll be happy to generate a mod to the specifications. It will take way less time than manually editing every spell in the "null mod," as long as the rules are very general like the examples I gave.

In my opinion, version 7.31 is ready to roll http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Boron noted a bug (I intended and claimed to give Jaguar Warriors regeneration, but they do not, in fact, regenerate), which is the only known outstanding issue, and I'll fix it before you start the game. Otherwise... everything seems fine. There will be changes in version 8.0, of course (especially based on the archery thread), but 7.31 does not seem to have any exploits, unbalance any units, or contain any bugs (other than the one I mentioned). So if your group wants to play with it, then please do so! And yes, BTW, it would benefit from this sort of field test, especially since not all nations and themes (notably Ermor, Ryleh, Atlantis, Ctis, and Mictlan) are present in the current test game. No pressure, of course, I'm just very enthusiastic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gygjas
 

Well, I will likely start that game soon then. If the spell reduction is something like "no spells above level 4", it will be easy enough to do on my own (find #researchlevel 5, replace all with #researchlevel 12, wash, rinse, repeat). Other, harder changes would be interesting too: maybe something like "double cost to all spells", for another kind of game... Hmm.

Now to the big one: compiling all item names on level 6 and 8.

Re: Gygjas
 

Have fun, and be sure to post it when it's finished http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Couple quick things...
 

Heya, first time poster but long time lurker here.

Unit# 682 isn't actually the ermorian standard.

668 is... at least if I'm not mistaken. I checked a base-theme Ermor and confirmed this (changed the Unit# in your mod to 668 to test).

Also... with the Ryleh land national troops a few suggestions/ideas:

Unit 971 the Hybrid Soldier: Perhaps make them more in line with the Illithid Soldiers in the sense that they get a mind blast? The Hybrid Lords get a mind blast similar to how the Illithid Lords do... it makes alot of sense to me. Otherwise there is really little point to having this unshielded, trident wielding trooper as just more "fodder" as opposed to all the many other choices that Ryleh has for this function. I suggest instead giving them mind blast like their larger and much stronger Illithid cousins and raising their gold cost to about 40(45?) or so. I think this is around reasonable considering they have half the HP of Illithids, 4 less str, 3 less prot, 1 less att, 2 more defense, 2 less size (good/bad - less food/easier trampled).

Also instead adding ambidexterity to all of the tentacled hybrids perhaps adding #bonus to weapon #85 would be the better solution? Unless I'm mistaken and this unbalances some other unit that has tentacles as well as standard limbs. Either way it makes a good degree of sense that a unit will either be humanoid and have tentacles growing out of him/her as an extra benefit... or a creature that only has tentacles as limbs. Both fit being #bonus type weapons.

Also... some of the Ryleh earlier void summons have really low attack ratings for imho no particular reason. This causes some of their special melee abilities to be virtually useless (like paralyze and steal strength) since they never will hit after they use all of their mind blasts.

#752 has a paralyze melee attack... but a 6 att.
Suggestion: Raising to 9 or 10.
#759 It's not bas enough that they're only aquatic... but they have life drain AND paralyze with a whopping 5 att.
Suggestion: raising to 10
#755 and 756 (the Otherness and Lesser Otherness) - They have a crush melee attack but a 5 att. this makes them virtually useless offensively against anything equal size or larger.
Suggestion: Raising att to 8 (reasonable increase without making them uber against same-size or larger creatures)

Also I can't find offhand the monster# of the greater otherness, but perhaps raising their att to 8 as well if you can find the #.

These are just a bunch of things I came accross that seemed rather strange/inconsistent wit the rest of the game. I know that Ryleh is really strong as is... but these are commonly under/unused or really limited unit types before the changes.

Also... may I suggest changing the kick from Chi Shoes (Weapon# 175) to #bonus as well? It seems silly that gore isn't considered into weapon length factors, but a magical kick is.

Thanks for reading all this... hope it's of some use. Thanks for all the hard work on this mod as well, so many of the changes are right in line with what I've wanted for a while now.

Resok

Re: Couple quick things...
 

Also the pangaea national hero (Monster #540) - The White Minotaur remains unchanged.

He is now weaker than the standard minotaur lords and I'd suggest increasing his stats to perhaps +1 higher than the standard minotaur lords.

Resok

Re: Couple quick things...
 

Resok,

Thanks a lot for finding and noting these errors and anomalies! As for Ambidextrity versus #bonus, I think #ambidextrous command became available first, which is why I use it. But #bonus would be a better way to deal with it, so I'll make that change. And I'll look into all of your Void Summon suggestions; I never really noticed their low attack ratings before. Void Summons should be good units, and there are other ways to balance Ryleh if their changes end up making the nation substantially more powerful.


I'll put out a new revision within 24 hours or so that corrects all of them.

Re: Couple quick things...
 

Excellent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thanks for reading through my little list, hope that these things helped to improve the mod in the end. I really love this mod and it meshes up with alot of the thoughts and ideas I was having for modding the game. If I come across anything else over time I'll let you know.

Resok

New version out (7.50)
 

A new version has been released. See the readme or first post in this thread for details.

Resok, I addressed everything you mentioned, except for the Hybrid Soldier. It would be nice if they had some special advantage... but not mind blasts, which would make them much too strong, IMO, even if the gold cost was increased to 40 or 45... partly because food is one of the few limiting factors on Ryleh mind-blasting ability, and they avoid it. And partly because they should be substantially cheaper than Illithids, as hybrids of lesser races without mental abilities. I see the Hybrid Lords as a very rare "perfect" hybridization result.

Some other sort of enhancement might be OK... or possibly, giving them a mind blast attack with only 1 ammo, if I can think of a way to mod it in. Or a life-drain tentacle with a fairly low attack rating.

Thanks for your help, and I'm glad you're enjoying the mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Long babble about my Hybrid Soldier suggestion
 

Makes a lot of sense balance-wise, I agree. The thing that lead me to suggest this is how I would always recruit a Hybrid Lord from any land-castle that I have due to being so much better than a Illithid Lord: Cost-wise, smaller, has feet slots, same mind-blast, not magical-I.E.: not vulnerable to magic-creature only spells/weapons, only disadvantage is that they have 15 less magical leadership and they have less HP, MR and STR. Though isn't that the point of hybridization? Mixing your race with another's to create a more efficient breed species? Reducing both your own races strengths and weaknesses by creating a hybrid of a lesser race, but still being stronger than the race you're mixing with.

The Hybrid Soldiers also have one other limitation that they have over the usual Illithid's that people recruit (the non-armored/life-draining ones). They're limited by resources... though perhaps raising their resources to 22 to match the Illithid Soldiers would make sense(?), either way they become roughly equivilant to Illithid Soldiers. With your mod though, supplies become virtually a non-issue, even for larger, bigger appetite (what DO Illithid's eat anyway?) Illithid Soldiers compared to Hybrid Soldiers. Also... themeatically the entire purpose of cross-breading in fact IS to become more adaptable to this new world they're attempting to enslave. Thus the advantages of the Hybrid as opposed to the pure-blood.

These were all thoughts that I had when thinking about the Hybrid Soldier conceptually compared to the Illithid Soldier. If we could mod their mind-blast to perhaps be lower-strength than a normal Illithid it would make sense. As it stands now, star children are still a much better investment by far gold-wise, but limited due to only one per turn per keep and needing a lab.

Now... I do agree with you that the change to Hybrid Soldiers would increase the effectiveness of Ryleh land-recruited units since they're currently limited on their land-units to only produce leaders and front-line fodder types. The food limitation however is considerably lessened with this mod, leaving the higher str, higher HP, Illithid's still superior due to their being 60% more food available.

I've been experimenting with a game (single-player) with the Hybrid Soldier changes I mentioned, and it feels pretty good balance-wise so far. Then again, I mostly play single-player so far so it doesn't really factor in as much. Them being better than the under-water recruitables in some ways encourages Ryleh to push out of the water and solidify on land in order to create a cheaper, if weaker, army of hybrids to support/supplement their pure-blooded Illithids. Also, this forces Ryleh to solidify assets on-land (where they can't hide from their land-enemies) in order to get Hybrids (which were of very little use before this mod except for the Hybrid Lords and Star Children).

A quick hypothetical cost-breakdown:

Concept Hybrid Soldier (45 gold, 18-22? resources): 30 gold mind blast weapon, 15 gold 10 morale, +5 hp, +1 str, -1 def, +2 natural prot - non-magic unit. 2/8 move
Eqiupment: Plate Cuirass, Trident (Why aren't ANY Hybrids given helmets anyway? Easier access for Illithids to suck their brains out if they get hungry I suppose)

You get a cheaper mind-blasting unit, that will get cut apart by cross-bow fire (potentially dying in one hit), with lower morale, but is smaller (takes less to feed and fights in tighter formations) and slightly cheaper. Also, takes normal leadership instead of magical.


Illithid Soldier (55 gold, 22 resources): 30 gold mind blast weapon, 25 gold for 11 morale, +5 str, +19 hp, +1 att, -3 def, +5 prot - magic unit. 1/7 move (why are they 1 strat move anyway? Normal Illithid's are 2/8 and Illithid Lords are 2/7)
Eqiupment: Plate Cuirass, Trident, Helment
You get a larger, more powerful mind-blasting combatant who would stand up to cross-bow fire (2 solid hits), and packs more of a punch in melee after all the mindblasts are gone.

So basically what we're looking at is the fact that Illithid Soldiers are so tactically bad to begin with (except for HP/str/prot), that except for the fact they're armored and have a mind-blast, they're not worth their gold/resource cost. This makes the Hybrid Soldier seem glaringly powerful in comparison, but only because the Illithid Soldier is worse in the ways that in practice are bad as opposed to on paper. If the Illithid Soldier was increased to 2/7 moves, and perahps given 1-2 more defense they would become better than a Hybrid Soldier in practice (thus justifying the +10 gold cost for a higher hp/str/mr/morale unit). It's partially the strat move, size and extra resources that makes the Hybrid Soldier looks so much better.

Hmm... perhaps they could be balanced with an extra supply requirement? #supplybonus -1 or -0.5 for example? That would put them closer in line with the rest of the illithids as far as supply limitations.

Anyway, I've babbled long enough... take my opinions with a grain of salt as I'm more expressing myself than anything else. In the end, I understand that Ryleh, out of any nation, needs the least help as far as their units go just because of the mind-blasting attacks, though without this change the Hybrid Soldiers have very little, if any, place in the armies of Ryleh compared to the fixed (non -4 attack) Hybrid Troopers.

P.S.: I appologize for my long post... appreciate you reading it, regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees. Feel free to dismiss the ramblings completely but I felt the need to explain my full reasoning for the suggestion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Resok

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

Also, quick typo I noticed...

The Hybrid Lord name is assigned to the Hybrid Soldiers. Below is the snip of the text in the mod... the monster# should be 972 for the Hybrid Lord.

#selectmonster 971
#name "Hybrid Lord"
#end
--cost unkn


Resok

New version out (7.51)
 

I released a new version, 7.51. This is identical in every way to 7.50 except that the file and mod names were changed from "Recruitable Rebalance" to "Recruitable Rebalance 751". This was done so that people can play multiple games with different mod versions, should they so desire, without the files overwriting each other. All future revisions will be named in this manner. Sorry for any confusion!

Resok - thanks for noting the typo; I'll fix it in the next version.

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

this mod works with the demo version?

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

No mod works with the demo version. That is one of its limits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

what i can do with your files? where copy it? maybe its any mod part?
(sorry i'm newby)

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

Unzip the zipped mod into \Dominions 2\mods\

That's the way to install any Dominions 2 mod. Once it is unzipped, you should see a file called "Recruitable Rebalance 751.dm" and a directory called "CherryData" in the "mods" folder.

After that, you can enable or disable the mod under "Preferences" in the Dominions 2 title screen.

Have fun!

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

ok, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
are you in position to do mod for eliminate orion mercenaries from this game?

Re: New version out (7.50)
 

I could weaken them, but I'm not going to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I like Orion's squad the strength it is. If I could increase the price to 150-200 gold, I'd do that, but currently mercenary prices cannot be modded. It does not matter in multiplayer, since everyone will just bid how much they think the Knights are worth.

However, I think Eternal Knights should heal, since they are listed as immortals...

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

This series of changes does a lot to Ulm, but a lot of it seems really counterproductive. The fact that various units have Cold, Fire, or Shock resistance is a nice trick, but since it's not consistent across the army, it ends up being very hard to plan ahead.

And the increase in resource price seems to take the BP units completely out of contention. Even with order 3 and productivity you can't afford 2 Black Knights a turn, and that means that you can't conquer neutrals in any kind of reasonable amount of time. Even a 3 turn build-up will just get smacked down by level 6 neutrals, and that's not cool. (Interestingly, you will have a big pile of money left over in a pile, not that it will do you any good).

I suggest an increased money cost (like you have it), with a decreased resource cost. And you should make the resistances on all the BP units the same. The setup in which your axemen are resistant to one thing and your hammermen are resistant to another and your guardians to still another is a non-starter.

The problem with Ulm is that they can't get a big pile of BP units in fast enough to take territory fast enough to actually make their "good" units matter. They need a random elemental pick on the Smith, and they need a reduced resource cost on the BP units. Until they get that, it almost doesn't matter what their units have and do.

Although on that score, is there any reason why BP units shouldn't just use actual BP? The whole impetus for having them use inferior BP has always been lost on me.

-Frank

Re: Couple quick things...
 

Well, Frank,
Ulm just doesn't need many BP units or BK against indies, at least at strength <=7.
Just build Arbalests, shielded chainmail units, back them with the Prophet casting SoC and it's done ...
Still I'll have a closer look at the mod's Ulm setup.
Maybe you could also couple the mod with Zen's scale : Prod is much better with it, so it helps our tin-can builders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.
I agree that the Smith needs a random Elemental. Why are Ulm smiths so much worse than Vanheim's dwarves ?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

BTW, if you really want a Soul Slay effect that only works once per battle, couldn't you just make an additional attack that had a very negative "#ratt" value? It could do zero damage and have an on-hit Soul Slay effect, and it would go off once per 50 turns or so, which means that he Valkyries would cough it up on the first round of combat and not afterwards.

-Frank

Re: Couple quick things...
 

25% Forgebonus !

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Yes, that would sort of work. Thanks for the idea... I might try it.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

One change I cannot understand is upping the cost of serpent priests to 200. The theme is already regarded almost universally as weaker than base, why make it worse?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Ummm... I guess, when pricing some units from special themes, I did not pay any attention to the "known wisdom" of the power of theme. Serpent Cult Pythium would actually be very strong on many maps if it could be combined with Water Cult, yielding powerful, amphibious, poison-immune, high-MR sacreds able to kill Atlantians (with their poison weapons) and Illithids (with an Astral blessing for additional MR). Illithids tend to be unable to kill things with high regeneration, regardless of MR.

But that's all beside the point. The reason is just that I re-priced Serpent Priests at 200 when I went on a holy-priest-mage price-boosting spree, since that approximately reflects their value outside of the context of their theme's weakness. Compare to a 140g Druid at 2H, 2N. 60g for +1W, +1? seems quite reasonable... or, starting with an 80g High Priest, 120g for +2N +1W +1? seems like a great deal, considering that it's all sacred... or starting with a Witch Hunter (already a great bargain) at 150g, and adding +1H and +1? for 50g (and changing the magic paths) also seems like a great deal.

However, there's also the fact that low-level Water and Nature magic are almost entirely worthless in most cases, which neither I nor Illwinter had really considered when pricing mages.

I still think 200g is a fair price for the unit, when obseved in a vacuum. But as you point out, the theme is pretty weak (especially considering that it takes Pythium from the (arguably) strongest magic nation to the (possibly) weakest). Do you think that giving Serpent Priests (another random *or* a linked random *or* 3N *or* 4H *or* 2W), and raising the price to 220~230, would make SC Pythium competitive? What about giving Acolytes a sorcery random, or replacing their 1N with a sorcery random (so they become like sacred holy Vaetti Hags)? As it stands, their mages can do little except pray for their sacred hydras...

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I would leave all as in the base game, except make the hydras cheaper (base theme hydras a bit too).

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

SC: I think what you have done with Abysia's Salamanders is cool. The idea is right: make them useful. But the tripple buff of attack, length, and reduced cost seems a little much. They are *awesome* in combat.

They could use a little nerf. I like the attack and length mod. Perhaps an increase back to the old price or heck, even more than the old price.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

OK, thanks, I'll look into that. With only ~5 attacks per battle (at 20 encumbrance) and low survivability (low protection and defense) I wanted to err on the side of cheapness, but my intention wasn't to give Abysia a new supreme unit...

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I don't think I would call them a supreme unit. And the trick with them is to arrange it so they do not get hit. But my quote to soapy was when fighting HC "Run *****es! RUN! BUUUURN!" Which is exactly what happens the 2nd round after contact with the enemy.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Please don't take my word for it, I could be smoking crack. Whip up a game with indeps at 9 and let it rip! I was using rich world settings and that does seem to make the problem considerably worse since you can recruit more of them more quickly.

Oh and I have a question wrt. the Jotun Herse. Why did you reduce it's cost? Did you think it was overcosted at 60 gold? They are fine units. Compare them to woodsmen ( both are sacred ). Similar units except that the Herse is wearing actual armor.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I'll keep that in mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I think they are highly overcosted for any purpose, other than weak unequipped (or maybe a lucky coin) Thugs when heavily blessed. Jotunheim has access to much better thugs (like Banes / Banelords). Even at 50g it is usually preferable for Jotunheim to let 30g indy human leaders do the leading.

Their stats are way lower than Woodsmen and they lack the useful abilities of Forest Survival and Stealth. In other words... anything that Herses can do, indy leaders or Woodsmen can usually do better.

Jotun Scout @ 50g
HP 32
STR 22
ATT 12
DEF 12
PREC 11

Jotun Herse @ 50g
HP 33
STR 21
ATT 11
DEF 10
PREC 10

Note that the Jotun Scout should 33-34 HP; the 32 is a mistake (as non-leader Woodsmen already have 33).

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Good point about the scout.

Perhaps the Scout is undercosted. Let look at the other sacred non-holy leaders. IIRC the sacred non-holy leaders are: the Shaman, the Wind Lord, the Hunter Lord, the Lord Warden, Keeper of Tradition, the Communicant, and the Prince General. All of the ones with combat potential ( everything except for the Shaman and the communicant ) are seriously expensive. I personally think that it is the scout which is out of wack and undercosted and not the Jotun Herse. As a matter of fact, I consider the Herse one of the more exploitable units in the game.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Question: in order to do this, it looks like you went through and figured out what al the weapon numbers corresponded to. Any chance that list is stored somewhere?

And another question: If you give a unit a weapon like "fire flies", does it actually shoot out a pile of those dinky little fires, or does it try to wield them as a melee weapon somehow? And if the former, how much ammo does it have?

-Frank

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

After just having finished a game with SC's mod while playing Ulm, I can tell you that Black Knights are not the initial way to go vs indies. Just use about twenty or so of the ultra-heavy morningstar inf and you are ready to rumble. Which, by the way, can be done - given your starting force and a turn or two. Once you have all the provs surrounding your capital captured (for the production boost) then you can begin building BK's for your 2nd indy-killer force.

Additionally, its the choice of castle, not prod scales that effects production most. So as Ulm, in any non-blitz game, you would want to pick a Wizards Tower, since it is cheap/fast to build and has good production. This allows you to ramp up the total production of your empire far more than any prod scale. The only nuisance is that you have to muster your troops from many forts (easy for BKs, hard for footsoldiers)

Iron Faith


PDF, how can you suggest to anyone that Arbalests be used? Ever? Thier rate of fire is so terrible as to make them usless. Unless thier accuracy or ROF has changed in the latest version of the mod?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I wrote down (with much help from others) the equipment IDs when I started on the Combat Simulator. You can search the forums for that thread... or just download Edi's Weapon and Armor Database, available at Arryn's site among others. I used Edi's compilation when making the mod because it is much more complete and up-to-date than the list I had made previously (listing all the weapon effects and so forth).

Fire Flies (like all spells) cannot specifically be given as a weapon, although multi-shot ranged weapons can be created, and it may be possible to replicate Fire Flies with a cleverly-designed weapon. Ammo can be modded, and ranged weapons are only used ranged, never in melee. A unit without a melee weapon will have "fist" or "claw" by default. Download Illwinter's mod manual for more info. BTW, also remember that ranged weapons do not cause fatigue.


ROF and accuracy unchanged. However, they are now shield-negating (and 12 damage). I'm not entirely certain how projectiles and shields work - for example, if a person has no shield, is there a 100% chance of a projectile hitting, or a 45.7% chance (0 attack versus 0 defense)? I *assume* it is the latter but I'm not sure.


Stats:

Xbow: 10ap damage, rate 0.5, range 32.
Arbalest: 12ap damage, rate 0.333, range 45.


Hitrate versus a 2-defense shield (like a round shield):
Xbow: 30.2%.
Arbalest: 45.7% or maybe 100%.


Hitrate versus a 3-defense shield (like a kite shield):
Xbow: 24.7%.
Arbalest: 45.7% or maybe 100%.


Hitrate versus a 4-defense shield (like a tower shield):
Xbow: 18.4%.
Arbalest: 45.7% or maybe 100%.

Source: http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...mp;o=&vc=1

So against shielded enemies, modded arbalests are always far better than crossbows by virtue of the greater damage and range; their high hitrate always more than makes up for the lower firing rate. The only weakness of modded arbalestiers is the high rcost.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

About Arbalests : Ulm *only* has Arbalests as missiles at start, so even if they're bad they're better than nothing.
Additionally a critical mass of arbalests can rout indies outright, or break a charge (on their 2nd volley on round 4).
Even in middle game, Arbalests are the only weapon able to pierce the more common high-protection units.
So they're not that bad IMHO.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Another question about Abysia: Do you think it was wise to increase the combat stats of the slayer to match those of human assassins? The slayer has 17 HP and 9 prot. He is very tough. And when I say very tough I mean Indep commanders have a rediciliously low chance of taking him out.

Everyone should have a chance to play Abysia at least once in this mod. It's comical!

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Maybe, maybe not. Slayers have poison daggers instead of the superior poison dagger + shordsword, and are very expensive. In my experience, unmodded, unequipped Slayers are very unlikely to kill more then 2 indy commanders before dying or being wounded, and they certainly can't take out a commander with bodyguards. In fact I never found them (cost-effectively) useful for anything, without magical items, but used them anyway just for fun. If you compare a modded Slayer to a Star Child or Empoisoner, they come out far, far behind. Slayers may have gotten too much of a stat boost, so perhaps I should set them back -1/-1 to attack 13 / defense 12, but in so doing I'd also reduce their gold cost to perhaps 75. I'll look into it.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Well... except Ulm now has Sappers, who carry crossbows. At 20g, they are not a good generic missile unit in my opinion, but for example Ironhawk employed them effectively as his main missile unit in the Test game, and their sapping ability came in very handy. Arbalests are certainly much more effective against high-protection units like Knights, HC, and Dragons, though, whether original (14ap) or modded (12ap sn).

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

You have to keep in mind that Abysia is a bloodnation.
One lifelong protection is enough and a slayer can kill almost any commander/mage unless it is a SC.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Boron,

That's a great strategy for later in the game and makes people's lives headaches. But the stat increase to the Slayer did not really affect the effectiveness of that particular strategy.

However if you equip a slayer with a sword of fire he will kill all indep commanders. I ran over 100 assassinations last night and lost 3. He is even better than C'tis empoisioners equipped with a skull talisman. And about equal to an empoisioners with a skull staff and enchantment-3.

It's just that good.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I did use some Sappers, yes. They are too expensive to perform in the traditional role. But their effectiveness lies in that they are a walking seige engine AND a decent missle unit. Buy 20 of them and your army just got +100 siege points with no significant loss of firepower - hello!!!

While Arbalests may seem attractive because of thier high damage potential, its really just wasted by thier low ROF. If they get 3 shots off in an entire battle it is a miracle. On top of this, they are actually even worse when used in combination with Ulmish units since they can actually kill a BP or BK unit!! Better to have Sappers or even better (for indys) shortbowmen, who can fire willy-nilly right into your heavy Ulmish troops formations and not hurt any of your own men.

There is a possibility that Arbalests could have some kind of niche role as a heavy-armor killer type missle. But in my experience, I would rather be putting those resources to BP Morningstars or BKs which I know will be effective and combine them with long/short/xbow & battle magic.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

In general, I think you went way overboard on giving out the #flail tag to weapons. I mean, lances?! That's why mounted people carry shields in the first place.

Yeah, rather than making every weapon and its mom kick shields in the jinglies, you should just make weapons generically and actually useful. The Arbalest should be #ratt -2, that's all it really needs to be a powerful incentive to play Ulm.

All of those changes really just made shielded units basically not worth it, and perversely therefore made Greatsword Barbarians overpowered. Since there's no incentive to have an army composed of anything but two handed weapon users, moderately decent THW guys became astoundingly the top of the heap. Standard heavy infantry has no survivability in this mod, so there's no real reason to employ it.

-Frank

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

While I do agree that lances don't need any help, I dont see it as that big of problem. I mean if someone hits you with a lance as it currently stands... its not going to matter if you have a shield or not, since its going to do like 25+ damage anyway.

What does #ratt -2 do?

What other weapons got ignore-shield?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

"#ratt -2" makes the weapon attack every other turn instead of every three turns.

Cherry has made the following weapons ignore shields:

Arbalests
Boulders
Blow Pipes
Lances

The following weapons have been made armor piercing:

Jaguar Bites
Niefel Axe Explosions
Niefel Swords
Mauls
Boulders
Alicorns

I honestly don't understand why any of this happens. The more you make weapons ignore the defenses of your opponent, the more you encourage people to run around naked with a big sword. In general, armor piercing should be extremely rare - as it's a specialized damge bonus against Ulm (and those losers need all the help they can get).

Remember, AP just means it bypasses half your armor. It doesn't mean it bypasses half your protection. If you want unicorns to be able to threaten dragons, just have them do more damage, do not give them a specialized bonus against Ulm.

-Frank

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Whaaa? This does not jive with what the dev's have stated else where wrt. AP. Is this correct?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

These weapons are not often used. Boulders should ignore shields, period. Lances should arguably ignore shields and are NOT the reason shields are used... Shields protect from light projectiles like arrows and slings stones, and melee weapons. Cavalry lances will go right through most shields, as I understand it.

The questionable ones are Blow Pipes and Arbalests. My rationale is that blow pipes are exceptionally accurate and used at very close range on tiny game like songbirds. So, ignoring the shield (and, say, hitting a unit's neck) should not be difficult, but it does not matter anyway as nobody ever uses them. Arbalests ignore shields experimentally to see if that makes them useful and balanced... the rationale being that the projectile has enough energy per unit area to rip through a standard wooden or leather shield. This may or may not be realistic, but I like it, and it was the majority choice in the ranged-weapons poll.

You can hardly claim that those changes make shields noticably weaker, let alone irrelevant! Blow Pipes and Hurlers are never used in the default game. Arbalestiers are very rarely used (you mainly encounter them as province defence). Lances are nice but only used once per battle, by very expensive and hungry units, or by Tien Chi cavalry which is still hungry but less expensive, and belong to a weak nation. Shields are no less vital than before, and Barbarian Swordsmen are still just as vulnerable to arrows, slings, blade wind, and melee units as before those changes.

Jaguar bites can (and do) crush turtle shells; they have the strongest (in pressure) bite of any animal, I believe. Mauls are designed for crushing stone (and so forth) rather than harming flesh, like normal weapons, and as such should do massive armor damage on rigid armors and easily cause fatal damage through (for example) heavy chain mail, without actually piercing it. Boulders have immense momentum that ignores armor, and a similar effect to mauls. And Alicorns are magical, armor-melting organic rods of spiraling death that are quoted in the definitive book "The Last Unicorn" as being used to kill Dragons. This is not possible with a non-AP Alicorn, as dragons have thick armor.

Again, these are pretty rare weapons, except for the Maul, which had no reason for existance. Mauls have a quite low attack now, and are essentially a great weapon for cracking Ulmish armor and Hoplites; reducing Living Statues and Gargoyle to dust; defrocking Monoliths and Sphynxes; mobbing protection-30 SC's; and possibly nothing else. So now they have some great specialty uses instead of no uses at all.

It's possible Niefels are overpowered (and if so, I'll change something) but I did raise the price, and they're a lot cooler now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I do want to encourage people to run around naked. Unmodded Dominions makes naked or low-armor units generally worthless, and mid-armor units quite bad. 2-handed weapons are usually a terrible idea, giving a small damage or length increase at the expense of 2 defense and 3 protection; the Greatsword is the main exception (though many people like the Flail and Pike). However, I accomplished this encouragement through stat and pricing changes, not through the shield-piercing and armor-piercing changes, since those only affect rare weapons. Except the Maul, which was not rare (only useless) but now has been given a niche.

AP halves all protection, not just armor protection. There is never a distinction between protection sources after the final value has been calculated. Unicorn horns are very special in that they melt through the offending obstacle, like a lightsaber. I don't want Alicorns slaying a Queen of Elemental Air in two hits, but I certainly do want them to damage a Dragon in accordance with history and physics.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Thinking about missile weapons "bypassing shields" : I'm not sure it would have any effects if the bypassing apply to the shield defense bonus. AFAIK missile weapons ignore defense altogether, they are aimed at squares and happen (or not) to hit stg in the square.
And I'm not sure the bypassing apply to the shield protection.
Lastly I don't find shield-bypassing missiles much rationalizable, unless they are rationalized as guided precision ammo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

################################################## ######

RANGED ATTACKS
A unit's defense does not matter when being attacked by an arrow.
Precision just determines which square the projectile will hit.

The attack roll on the projectile is 10+2d6,
while the victim's roll is 10+shield defense modifier+2d6.

A tower shield for example has a defense modifier of 4.
################################################## #######

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

The shield-negating projectiles I added (arbalest, boulder, and blowgun) are not "smart missiles," of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Boulder: If a giant throws a boulder at you and you block it with a shield, you'll still die. Hence they negate shields.
Blowgun: Used from very close range, with a flat trajectory and short travel time, a blowgun user should be able to shoot at an exposed body part.
Arbalest: A thin wooden or leather shield might be pierced by an exceptionally powerful hand-held crossbow. So if you extrapolate to bigger, stronger Ulmians, and realize that it takes even them 3 turns to wind the crossbow, and maybe their weapons are forged by the clever magical Master Smiths who can get much more than the normal crossbow energy efficiency, and perhaps the bolts are tipped with Black Steel with superior density and penetration ability, it is reasonable to assume Ulmian arbalest bolts could pierce non-metallic shields and still do damage.

Certainly, none of the projectiles are laser-guided or anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

How about making blowguns deal 1d2-1 points of an armor-negating damage + mild (or weak, or fatiquing) poison?
Historically, blowguns were only used with poisoned darts, otherwise they were as useless as... well, as they are in Dominions 2 now, maybe even worse.
Though I must say, I'm not impressed by poison in Dominions 2 (I've not been able to put it to good use, so I'm not even sure how it works).