Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

That is your opinion. I think that we have the right to defend our own opinion in this matter.

PS.
The thread should be locked, since this is a pointless and very subjective discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Sorry, I am not being uncivil, rude more than others. If you had showed some frendly behaviour I woould be also friendly. Why would my opinion stirr such outburst? Do you need machine guns to help you out against me... Jesus Christ, nobody will be harmed in this process of little criticism.

And mind you as I bought the game I have perfectly legal right to say what I don't like here in this case.

I didn't pirate it through torentz or something. I have bought this game just like you. Continue, I know that I will be banned because I can see that tolerance here is also very low. But, if I get banned that will not be just my blame. And you will be happy I think.


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Hehe, we don't need to argue. In fact this is great fun, why to close down the thread? lol
After a long and hard work today I can also have some fun lol

I am sorry if I offended anyone, yes my English is not good like yours it was not my intentions. I said my opinion - enough for me. Now we can just talk for fun.


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

"And mind you as I bought the game I have perfectly legal right to say what I don't like here in this case."

It's a little late for criticism of the price after you bought it though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It's a rather strange argument. Obviously enough people are willing to pay the current price for the game, hence no reason to drop it. Sure, more people might buy it for a lower price, but unless your desperate to sell more it's not much of an argument. I reckon more people would buy rolex watches if they lowered the price, but I can't see it happening in the future...

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

You are all endangering this thread. Get back to discussing the subject and not discussing each other.

I will point out that it would do no one any good to go to a forum that is 99% one mind, post something counter to that, then complain if its not taken well. Such a battle takes above-average diplomacy if you really think its going to make a dent. I think that the community here has been fairly well mannered compared to most other fan sites.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I don't think that you should be banned, however this thread should be locked real fast. This is slowly turning into a flame war because of a pointless argument.
This game is pretty unique, there isn't any game like this on the PC market. It is also extremely addictive. The majority of us are only playing with this game [well I do buy many other games, but I am always focusing on Doms], so 55$ is nothing for it. Please try to understand things like this.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I am. I will also play this game so don't want to be banned because where I will ask for advices? lol

I know that this game is great. OK, I have stated my opinion so we can get back to discuss the game.

I will make feedback when my game actually arrive so no more fuss and beating the dead horse anymore. I don't want flame.
It was fun ...


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Hi All!

Okay everyone lets take a deep breath.

I hope you are enjoying Dominions 3, regardless of how you feel about the price point we have set.

I have followed this forum topic on and off over the last few days, as well as a similar discussion on another board. I am going to break my own rule and talk a little about why we have priced Dominions 3 the way we did. I usually don't get into these discussions as there is no win here. Some will feel the game is overpriced, and nothing I say will change that. Now having said that...

Dominions II was priced at $49.95, and we had a similar discussion going on at the time we released it with regard to pricing. Some people think that niche products, developed on shoestring budgets should be priced as shareware, even though we have all the costs that a major publisher has - maybe just not on the same scale - and the developer on a per man basis probably puts in more hours than a developer of any major title on a per man basis. Well, Shrapnel and Illwinter survived those discussions, and Dominions II was a success, becoming one of our top three selling games ever.

Now onto Dominions 3. We had a huge decision to make. We could either follow the path of Dominions II and print a manual on par with the Dominions II manual, or take the manual up a notch. Doing a Dominions II style manual would have probably left the price point the same; taking things up a notch would mean a price increase. Due to the overwhelming feedback from the true fans of Dominions and those who didn't buy or didn't enjoy the game (as first timers), we felt a much improved manual would benefit everyone who we considered our target customer. We also hoped that it would lead to additional sales, but that is really something that only time will tell - and it is way too early to make that call.

As some of you are aware, Illwinter hired Bruce Geryk to write the manual, and we supported the decision to make the manual a 200 page 'book'. Due to the quality work Bruce gave us and knowing that we didn't want to cut out anything, we ended up with a manual of almost 300 pages. Then, we decided, due to the large amount of reference materials, to upgrade the manual binding to coil binding, so that it could lay flat. BTW, the price of the last 100 pages and the coil binding doubled the cost of the manual over the 200 page manual we had originally envisioned. Now add to that the cost of the printer shipping to us manuals that are twice the weight of the Dominions II manual and storage costs of manuals that take up twice the space...

Can you see where I am heading? I think that is enough said. Just know, that Shrapnel Games and Illwinter will make less per copy on Dominions 3 than we did on Dominions 2, even with the $5.00 increase. So, to make the same money we have to sell many more copies and as I said earlier, we are way too early into the release to know if this decision will pay divdends.

We didn't set the price of Dominions 3 based on what we thought the market would bear or to make huge profits or to insult potential customers. We set the price based on economics of costs. And if I had known the manual would end up at 300 pages with coil binding I would have set the price at $59.95. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't want anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.
OK, thank you. That is nice and clear reasoning. I will aceept your words. I am not entirely convinced and I still support idea of cheaper games - bigger audience but whatever. I will not spoil the party.

Will try to discuss game related thing when I get the game.


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Hm i have not yet gotten my copy, so i cannot yet judge about the quality of the manual.
But because there is the option of a digital manual, best case e.g. as word or html document, and the charts etc. sortable as e.g. excel-files i can state my opinion nontheless i think.

I am sure that Bruce did a fantastic manual. But if it would be digital as i said it would be even a bit better imho.

Dom 2 had after a while excellent fanmade digital documentation.
And my personal opinion for any hardcore strategy game is that the manual is only the basics, but most important for the learning process is nontheless discussion and play with other players and guides by veteran players.

So i personally would be happier with a digital manual if i would have to pay less then.

You just stated that you earn less per sold copy of Dom3 than per sold copy of Dom2 because of the additional costs from the manual.
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border, so i oracle that Dom3 will bring you less profit than Dom2.

If you had offered 2 versions of Dom3 for purchase though i think every customer would have been content:
First version with a digital manual for e.g. 45$ and the second version as you offer it now with the printed in high quality manual for 60$ for those people who prefer to have a physical manual.

That is just my subjective opinion though and i hope that Dom3 sells better than Dom2 because imho both of you, Illwinter and Shrapnel, deserve success with Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I'll be curious to see when/if Dominions 3 breaks Dominions 2 sales numbers.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

We're a fun group! That'll be $5.00 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Aye i dont much care for manuals.. I can read a pdf as well as paper. I would of most definalty taken the cheaper version.

Now one of my friends i recently told about. Was over joyed at a spiral binded 300 page manual and plans on ordering soon.

2 versions would of been spiffy if the manual is what was costing so much.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

That situation is really weird. If you wait you're getting:
1) cheaper price;
2) better quality (the game is patched [to some extent] by that time);
3) lower platform cost (by that time, the hardware required to run that game decently cost cheaper).
These makes buying major titles right away impractical. I'm sure I'm not the first who noticed it and publishers certainly aware of it. So they probably just follow the plan of intentionally pricing the game higher on release. Probably they consider something like 20$ a good fair price for their product, but set it much higher initially to get money from people who *must* have it the day it's out.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Can we get this thread locked now? I appreciate the official response and knowing now that the higher cost was due to the manual and not an attempted fleecing of a loyal playerbase. Every possible avenue has been explored in this thread already and I think it's time to move on to other topics. Thanks again.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I see no reason to lock it. It WAS getting a bit confrontational, but I think that has died down. There is probably very little to say, but somebody might come along with a good point or two. That said, no one should feel obliged to post here. We won't think less of you if you skip this thread, but some of us fanatics might want to chew on old soup a little more.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

And here's the funny bit. Thanks to the exchange rate, the current price of Dom3 + shipping amounts quite nicely to 50 euros. My visa bill for the pre-ordered game was below 50€, but the price for the one I ordered just last week will probably be quite near the magic number. Most of the new games in Finland cost in 50-70€ range, and this gets delivered home.

So, in addition of getting paid more wages (on average) you USians apparently pay less for your goods if $55 is something to complain. Silly people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Here's hoping Shrapnel and Illwinter get what they deserve out of Dom3 sales (i.e. only positive stuff).

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Excuse me, mister "friendly" - you're the one who popped up and posted, with no provocation, "Well, I knew that you are biased and not very bright, but you tend to be a liar as well." Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

So, surprisingly enough, people think you're rude, uncivil, uncouth, or worse. And it has nothing to do with your use of the English language, or your opinion about the game or its pricing.

No, you don't have _any_ "legal" right to post here. Posting here is a privilege (albeit sometimes a dubious one) - if you don't behave, you run the risk of being banned from what is essentially a private forum, run by a commercial company. No "legal right" here at all.

I for one will be delighted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

> Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But still Cainehill, the discussion is supposed to be back on track and not personal anymore.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

That's why I will not even answer to this Deda Pantelija/Van Gogh person. But, I will gladly give him knife if he wants to tear his ear out haha lol


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

OK I think that all guns are silent...


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

[/quote]

Excuse me, mister "friendly" - you're the one who popped up and posted, with no provocation, "Well, I knew that you are biased and not very bright, but you tend to be a liar as well." Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

------


I will answer just to this because this is clearly false statement. I didn't make any discussion on Usenet to SWING majority of users on usenet AGAINST SHRAPNEL or anything like that. So that was clearly false statement. In fact what is majoriry on Usenet, three dunkard? lol Usenet is also full of lurkers.

Somebody clearly attacked me and have pinned me some bad intentions. Annette can say how much I have praised Shrapnel and Dominions 2 on USENET and other forums and that you don't count! That word of mouth is not credited http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And as many listen to me, I have spread a word about Dominions 2 and many bought the game because of that. That is different story and don't have to do with my dislike of this price (and there is a lot more to that but I put this matter at closed).

And it is really low now to attack me when we agreed that discussion is over. Maybe to start flying some apologizes. I for myself am sorry if I have offended anybody.


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Nobody attacked you. You're reading a personal attack into Gandalf's statement that "You do understand that asking [if Dominions III is overpriced] in the Dominions forum makes it likely that most people will not agree with you? But even in the usenet strategy forums I had the same conversation. The person there also was not able to swing a majority."

That's not an attack on you. It's a description of the discussion on Usenet you participated in. He didn't make any claims about your intents or purpose, only about the outcome of the discussion itself.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

haha...

What outcome? I am on Usenet since 1996. Are you aware that on Usenet is MORE LURKERS than those who write.... That there 5 Dominions fans made dislike of my view and one partly because he also agreed that price is high means something?
Sometimes bigger impact is to shout in the lobby of your building than to say something on Usenet.

Now, what means "swing majority"... I also read this as personal attack. Sorry but telling opinion as INDIVIDUAL is not swinging majority. But, if you would like that just let me know - if I am that much powerful lol. Now put American anthem behind and stay calm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And please... can we respect some opinion or not? I deal with computer games all the time, buy them and sell them so I know few things about that as well. Tim Brooks have explained some things but it's good that he get some other feedback as well...


EDIT: Swinging mojority - I have reacted as i have reacted because I don't want to be portrayed as enemy of the Shrapnel by fanboys here because I dislike this price politics. That is nonsense. And THAT would not come to his honour to any FREE thinking individual be it anywhere on this planet. Understood that padre?


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

A game that is prolly going to be played for years, has the best (as in term of usefulness, I actually believe I will be using it for as long as I'll play this game) manual I have seen in my ~25 computer gaming experience (during which I have bought dozens of computer-games), is delivered home, and costs less than 50€... Yeah, for me it is prolly the best BBF (bang-for-bucks) ever.

And I have to admit, if there had been a choice to get Dom3 for 5€ less if the manual was digitally available too, I might have taken the cheap way. And I for sure would be kicking my head now (and moaning if I possibly can buy the manual separate). The manual really is *damn good* (and there I have always been calling people who actually read manuals as "losers"...), and I think Shrapnel made a good decission by "forcing" people to get it too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Well, I tried. This discussion is through for my part.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I also tried. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Tim,

Thanks for letting us know the reasoning on the manual and the history of it. I am sure there will be much back and forth on this, but it is great to know what actually went on.

For my two cents of market research, I prefer a printed manual. After all, after a few hours of non-stop playing, you need to go to the toilet! Reading about the game is not as good as playing it, but it is better than my wife's magazines!

Still looking at the demo and see a lot of nice improvments, yet to deceide if I will order.

Stay well!

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

lmao! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Who is Deda Pantelija anyways?

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif))

hello, I see that you have Mirko Filipovic in your sig... I have seen him around in Zagreb... hehe, but I am not that tough to beat him (cough, cough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Deda Pantelija is one funny character from one Serbian movie called "Maratonci trce pocasni krug". Movie is in fact cult movie and very funny.
I was once in bar with my friend and we knew the owner he is from Amsterdam and he had some bottle like brandy and there was this picture of Van Gogh on a bottle and my friend told him and showed on a bottle: "This Deda Pantelija is givin me a strange look" lol
so I just made tonque in cheek.


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Ah I see. I was in Croatia countless times, I have many mates there [well basically kickboxers], also we have 2 houses near the sea. Where do you live? Zagreb? Mirko is a very cool man, I've met with him 2 times, thanks to my sparring partners. Yeah more then likely he would kick my butt also, but this might change in ~3-5 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ps. Nice to meet with a Croatian on this forum mate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

Cool.
Yes, I live in Zagreb. I know some people who are good with Mirko. Also, my friend was before into boxing (ordinary) and he was sparring with Zeljko Mavrovic. Mavrovic today is a businessman, he makes good bread and other healthy food products, my friends works at his company as well.

And also salute to you Hungarian mate!


Mario

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I think you're mistaken here. While i still wonder about the incompetence that is displayed everywhere in the IT indsutry, (while working there i get to observe it first hand. I blame it on the older generation in higher management ranks who grew up with electric typewriters not computers) i'm sure that the economists at the big publishing companies know exactly what they're doing.
I'd say that in most mainstream games new graphics make up 50-80% of the selling point. Basically, crap like halo 2 or WoW sells because it's shiny and new not because it's so much better than the predecessor from last year. Ok, maybe those were bad examples since in bose cases they've ben massively overhyped too.
Anyway, mainstream games have to be shiny to sell, and on the mass market, games aren't shiny anymore if their graphics are a year old. Many posts in this thread show how important shinyness is for many gamers.
So, the way i interpret it, publishers of mainstream games don't have a choice but to reduce prices over time or they wouldn't sell the game anymore. Because you can always pick up the newest shiny clone of one of the five or so game types that are still produced en masse if you're willing to pay full price. No point in buying a virtually identical game with older graphics.
Niche games are different. Unlike Oblivion or Doom 3, games like Dominions or UFO: Aftershock (to name a semi-niche game not from Shrapnel) age very well, since shinyness isn't important in the first place, the value doesn't diminish with time.

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ovic&hl=en

K1 legends in this little video including Mirko, Hoost, Andy Hug, Aerts and many others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ovic&hl=en

Some fight scenes of Mirko, some of them are from his early period. [Can you see the difference between his young period and later period? He is using his legs much more lately, not to mention that his muscles are much bigger now + also he is much more powerful and faster now.]
He has worked a lot to become one of the best fighters, you can find some training session videos on the net. I am really impressed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ovic&hl=en

K1 legends in this little video including Mirko, Hoost, Andy Hug, Aerts and many others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ovic&hl=en

Some fight scenes of Mirko, most of them are from his early period. [Can you see the difference between his young period and later period? He is using his legs much more lately, not to mention that his muscles are much bigger now + also he is much more powerful and faster now.]
He worked a lot for this, you can find some training session videos also. I am really impressed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[/quote]

Thanks, appreciate the links, I look the video later today I have fight with office clerks around town ah..
Good to see that discussion have cooled down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Will report my mini review when I get the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Are we paying more for less?
 

I think this thread as run it's course and needs to go to thread heaven.

Lock.