Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Perhaps make PD weapons able to target fighters in ground combat as well. Possibly at reduced effectiveness so they don't kill the buildings as well.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That sounds like a good compromise.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Kwok,

Any idea when you'll release the AI scripts?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Yes. I plan on posting the scripts once the research scheme is setup. Probably on Monday or something like that.

I have been trying to add in some documentation on the changes I made in each file to help others figure out what was changed/added.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Is Monday your projected time for .93 or for posting the scripts?

Would you mind posting what you have for .93 or is it in a non-workable state? I have a friend who I played quite a bit of SE4 with asking about SE5 and I'd like to try and test it with the latest and greatest Balance Mod before I try and give him an opinion. I've had the game for a week but havent even installed it yet as I've been more or less waiting for it to get to a more 'complete' state, especially with regards to the AI.

Thanks for your efforts either which way though!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Greetings!

Joe, good timing for your question! I was actually just uploading the next version when you posted. You might as well install the game though - there's a lot of players who don't have much trouble with bugs and you can gain some experience with the UI etc. even if the AI isn't great yet.

I've just posted the next version for download:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Version 0.93 (27 October 2006)
------------------------------

1. Fixed - Plague Bombs were not following their tech requirements
2. Fixed - Point-Defense Weapons accuracy at range values were accidently reversed
3. Changed - Drones can now be recovered
4. Changed - Added back Recover - Unit abilities for launch components
5. Added - Satellite Layer design type
6. Changed - Reduced Recreation Services cultural achievement to 5 levels
7. Changed - Cargo Facilities now include additional supply and ordnance storage
8. Changed - Increase remote cargo distribution for Resupply Depots
9. Changed - Point-Defense Weapons now do ground damage
10. Changed - Tweaked AI ship designs
11. Updated - AI research pathing
12. Updated - AI Scripts</pre><hr />

I'm going to take some time this weekend to play a few competitive games with the AI and see how it performs. Let me know how your games go.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Neat! Did you fix that organic weapon by the way? I'll try a new game now.

Can't remember if this was there before, but each flag and ship style come up twice in the empire creation flag/style selection.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The duplicate flags etc. is an SE:V bug.

I fixed the plague bug thing - but I'm not sure if it will be fixed for previously saved games.

Note the AI will now research most of the main weapon groups as I throw them in the global research pool. It should at least help most of them.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Would it be possible to assign certain weapon paths to specific AI personas? This way, you don't have to have every AI researching weapons they won't use, and you can have some that prefer certain types of weapons (energy pulse as opposed to projectiles), and can specialize in them.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Not the plague thingy, I meant that Acid organic weapon thingy that had its range accidently set to 10-20.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Yes, I did fix the Plasma Charge although I neglected to add it to the changelog.

Shadowstar, that is how it is suppose to be setup. Each empire's main script contains references for that AI to use specific weapons and to research those ones only. However it's not quite working right now so I temporarily added a bunch of common weapon techs to the global research list to at least make the regular AIs (non-racial ones) a bit more competitive.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Ah, I see. So its a workaround for a bug then. That makes sense.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I am very impressed and pleased by your mod.
The AI is much better than in the stock game and the short game I made so far is very interesting.
Excellent work!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Thanks a lot for posting it. Its downloaded and installed, but I have to wait until tomorrow to give it a test spin.

I'm trying to read through manual before turning in for the night, but yeesh, that thing is hard to read!

Thanks again for your work on this!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Unsure if this is because of the mod or a stock issue, but my Space Yard Ships all get 4,900 construction rate. That's with a Level 1 Space Yard( 1,000 construciton rate) and the +10% and +25% construction rate traits. How that sums up to 4,900 is beyond me.

Someone mentioned the 25% trait was being applied twice, but even that doesn't get me close to 4,900, so I'm not sure where the error is here. And is the +25% trait supposed to work with Space Yard Ships/Bases at any rate? I seem to remember it says 'Planetary Space Yard' rate.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

4900 could be (2000 x 2) + (2000 x 45%)
45% could be 25% + (2 x 10%)

So maybe what's happening is:
2 x ( (1000 x 2 x 110%) + (1000 x 25%) )

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Hmm, where are you getting those numbers from?

The exact construction rate is currently 4913. Base construction rate of the mobile Space Yard is 1,000 at Level 1( it's 2000 for level 1 planetary construction yards ), which is what I have. 1,000 + 10% + 25% +25% (assuming 25% was being applied twice) sums up to 1600 total. Where's the 3313 remaining points coming from?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I got those numbers from your post immediately above, which states a 4900 construction rate, a 10% bonus and a 25% bonus. As far as your new 4913 rate, you probably have a racial or planetary morale bonus.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Sorry Angle, I expressed myself poorly.

I have a Medium Freighter with a single Level 1 Space Yard component on it. That Space Yard component states that it constructs with 1,000 Minerals, Organics and Radioactives each turn. My race has a 10% and 25% construction bonus, which should put that Space Yard construction rate up to 1,600. There are no other listed modifiers. Yet when I enter the construction screen for that ship it says its construction rate is 4,913.

The AI is still not using Satellites effectively, Kwok. They don't really build many, either. They have like 5-10 times as many fighters as sats. How about at least tripling Satellite construction( perhaps lowering fighter production) and have them put all of them at warp points?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I don't know exactly how it is being applied and it was Aaron who stated it was being applied more than once in the changelog. Regardless it's an SE:V bug.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I noticed something odd in my current game. It seems that every design I create gets duplicated one turn after I create it. Anyone else notice this?

This didn't happen with stock games before, so I'm assuming its balance-mod related.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That was a problem in multiplayer games earlier...
Do you have the v1.08 patch for SE5?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Oops. One of the little changes I made in v0.93 has stopped the AI from adding a PD cannon on its early attack frigates. It will still make the PD ships fine and everything else - but I'll need to fix it eh?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Yes, I patched it to 1.08 right after 1.08 came out. Plus this isn't a multiplayer game, it's a single player "same machine" with simultaneous movement. It's using an empire file from a previous game, but even so, the empire file was created with 1.08 too, so that shouldn't be the problem.

The only things that are different from Balance Mod defaults are that I changed the designnames.txt file a bit to my own tastes, plus the colonytypes.txt and added some starnames to the stock systemnames.txt file. I kept the originals, so I can revert in a pinch if necessary but I can't imagine those files are the problem.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Greetings.

Here are some updated AI files for v0.93 that fix the PD problem I caused:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/Empires.zip

Just extract to your balance mod folder!

-----

Shadowstar - sounds like an SE:V error to me! It had happened a while back in the beta but I hadn't seen it for a bit.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Hmm, I'm curious as to what is causing it. If its only affecting me, then it indicates that I did something at some point to cause it. Well if I come across anything that helps nail it down, I'll post it here. If nothing else it should be interesting, and maybe it'll get to MM and get fixed in the next patch.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I am getting the following error message - attached.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Delete the soundeffects.txt file from the data folder.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Kwok,

I noticed my AutoCompletes don't work right anymore, it puts on too many engines, no weapons etc. Do you know what that is configured? It is only for my custom empire.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

nm, its probably because I didn't compile with your scripts yet.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That would be the likely culprit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

ANy chance of a research tutorial? It sets up techs to research in a number of places. It is also confusing wether the order changes, since the ones off of the main script run every turn, whereas the setup ones run only once?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

How did you get rid of the garbage treaties? In my custom AI, I do:

call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_SHARE_TECHNOLOGY)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_SHARE_DESIGNS)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_RESEARCH)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_USE_VIRAL_WEAPONS)
call lng_Politics_Treaty_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete(T REATY_ELEMENT_TYPE_CANNOT_BOMBARD_PLANETS)

call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_SHARE_TECHNOLOGY)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_SHARE_DESIGNS)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_RESEARCH)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_USE_VIRAL_WEAPONS)
call lng_Politics_Alliance_Elements_Allowed_Type.delete (ALLIANCE_RULE_TYPE_CANNOT_BOMBARD_PLANETS)


after the political functions, but it does not work.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Also of note, the Propose_Elemtents function in AI_Politics seems a bit off to me. It does not seem to take anger of the element into consideration before it adds it to the element array.

I changed the anger on the bad elements to -10000 and it didn't make a difference, I added (this_anger &gt; -10) to the if statement in the function and it works out fine.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I've seen some good behaviour with the AI in my test game. They are using all the transport types including carriers with fighters, troop transports with troops - both types in fleets - and also sat layers with sats.

Unfortunately they still suffer from a bit of let down in expansion after 10-15 colonies.

-----

Aegisx - I commented out the negative elements until I could figure out the exact calculations being used. There appears to be several functions that work out the treaty elements.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

There wasn't one. I cut and pasted the one from stock.

Still not working. Any more ideas?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

My accidental inclusion of Tampa_Gamer's soundeffects file in v0.91 or so was the only cause for that error I have seen.

Just try it without any soundeffects.txt file in the mod's data folder. Also make sure you have a soundeffects.txt in your stock data folder - I tend to move rather than copy files when I do this sort of thing.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Well, I am not sure how I fixed it.

A.) I had a "nested" Balance Mod in the Balance Mod folder which I deleted.

B.) I deleted the soundeffects.txt file that I had copied from stock into the Balance Mod folder.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Issues with 0.93 that I can see at turn 150 with the AI empires( a few of them might be general game issues):

1. They still don't research ship sizes enough. At 150 the best they have is Light Cruiser; some not even that.

2. There's a problem with the AI researching both Energy Stream, Energy Pulse *and* Projectile weapons. Since these weapons all fall into the same 'primary weapon' category it seems a huge waste of RP.

3. An Attack Ship design had a Medical Bay on it.

4. The AI's will build (few) satellites and satellite layers, and even take the satellites into the satellite layers, but they will *not* use them to guard warp points, and they also don't appear to use fighters for that. All warp points are left unprotected in all but a few rare cases where the AI keeps ships there, sometimes a tiny fighter squadron.

5. One AI empire that I checked had explored 10 systems, but left 2 of them only half-way explored even though he had colonies in them. However, the problem is that these 2 systems are the only ones leading to the 'outside', but the AI don't know about any warp points in them so he's actually been without contact with other empires for 150 turns and is not expanding, exploring or even trying to.

6. The AI wont vote for Alliance proposals, making alliances practically useless. A 1.08 bug?

7. Most of the AI's systems are almost completely void of ships: The ships appears to be concentrated in 1-3 Fleets containing tons of ships, sometimes all in the same system, and 1-2 planets with a heavy concentration. The AI usually have a dozen systems, even border systems, without more than 2-3 ships in them.

8. The AI likes to research Torpedoes far too much. Level 10 torpedo technology as opposed to nothing else above level 8. Most of them aren't even using the torpedoes.

9. The AI tries to colonize planets which are prohibted for him to colonize by treaties.

10. The AI tries to move population to planets that are already full.

11. There are no 'ruins'?

Think that's about it for now.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Thanks Raapys for the report.

1-2: As I mentioned before I had to throw in the weapon techs in the general file because they weren't being picked up in the individual Empire scripts. So (2) is a partial cause of (1) because they are wasting points on stuff they are not using. I'm hoping to resolve this issue shortly.

3: A Medical Bay is one of the extra components to be added - if other more wanted components are not available yet, it gets to this one and adds it if a ship is big enough. Anyways it will restricted to Medical Ships in the future.

4: That was a SE:V bug - it was *resolved* in beta v1.10

5: There was a survey bug that was also *resolved* in v1.10 - this should lead to the WPs being uncovered sooner.

6: Bug yes.

7: I have fleets set to use 90-95% of the available ships - but I can tweak this or perhaps increase the number of fleets.

8: See 1-2

9-10: There's no checks in place for either item. You can also include the AI sending multiple colony ships to the same planet in this category. I'm working on a solution but haven't quite figured out to see if another ship is enroute to the planet when a AI colony ship chooses a destination.

11: Ruins are lost on turn 1 - it's a known SE:V bug.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Alright, starting to sound good then.

I've got one big concern, though; everyone wanted to be friends with me, so I figured I had to declear a couple of wars myself to get any fighting done. So I do: 50 turns later I am still waiting for an attack, even though I have borders to one of my enemies( the #1 on the score list) and the other one is only a system apart from me.

So, is it just me or does the AI appear to be harmless? I'm thinking I could probably go through hundreds of turns without ever actually needing a warship; the AI doesn't appear to be in the least bit interested in destroying my colonies and fleets.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

luckly all the pieces are there so we can make the AI 'not harmless' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I don't know. I've had run-ins with the Drushocka and Xi'Chung were they have proactively attacked me and any weakly colonies. In fact, the Drushocka sent a fleet with a troop transport to one of my planets - but my lone protecting ship was able to damage the weapons of the fleet leader and the fleet retreated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

From now on the default strategies for the AI will include break formation!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Two observations:
1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!
2.) The main empires are too friendly. With the exception of a neutral empire I have a treaty with all other empires. I think there should be some full empires who hardly ever agree to a treaty.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I have a little feedback too - I am playing with a custom Crystalline race on 0.93/1.08, Hard AI and Low AI Bonus.

I've played enough turns to research Crystallurgy 2, Crystaline weapons 1. I have just got Light Hull Construction 3 and am beginning on Medium-Light 1.

It seems that my home system borders that of the Jraenar(sp?) chaps - and they wasted no time whatsoever in going on the assault! They sent me all sorts of messages laying claim to my system, and while I was at the point of researching Crystallurgy 2, their first fleet turned up.

This fleet had 10 frigates, with a mix of 3 designs containing DUC 2s, a Point Defence and a few Armour 1s. That early it game me quite a headache! They killed 3 fledgling colonies of mine as I pecked away at them with a handful of my defensive frigates. He also sent a couple of groups of 2 or 3 colony ships in while this was going on, and took a Rock planet close to my homeworld (I am Gas Giant).

I weathered the storm, and was able to repel this fleet and invade his outpost in my system with troops. All other races are fairly friendly to me, and I have treaties including a Mutual Defence Pact with 2 other races, who both refused to "Provide Military Assistance in Sector" when I asked... one because they'd suffered recent losses themselves, and the second race because they objected to me fighting with the Jraenar!

Things are looking a little better since then. My tech is improving, I gathered a main fleet of maybe 8 Shard Cannon Frigates, and a seperate task force of 5 frigates with dual Crystal Torpedos to hang back and fire at max range. This is working a treat! I pushed them back to their system and have seen what I imagine is their homeworld.

I see how they fielded an early fleet now! They've put the Construction Yard Component straight to use in four seperate Starbases around this planet. The planet was also defended by about 50 fighters and 10 or 12 frigates.

It's been great fun so far! My observations:

1) Seeing the Jraenar be aggressive, and gear up his planets for churning fleets out fast is pleasing AI to see. A lot of races are excessively friendly, but if someone does go to war they don't mess about!

2) He's definitely committing a good 90% of his attack ships into a single fleet. There has been the occasional lone frigate or two buzzing around my system in addition to the main fleet. This was problematic for me in the early game but I imagine the changes planned to have them maintain more than one fleet would be better suited as the game progresses.

3) I had some trouble with attacking the Jraenar homeworld. I played a little SE4, and this is my first proper session of SE5 so it could easily be my fault! My fleet had task forces of:

TF1 - ~10 Shard Cannon frigates on Close Weapons Range
TF2 - ~7 Crystalline Torpedo frigates on Maximum Weapon Range
TF3 - A transport loaded with troops, on Capture Planet strategy
TF4 - A recon ship and a Supply/Ordnance tanker (thank you Balance Mod!) on Don't Get Hurt.

I sent this at his planet with the 4 space yard bases / fighters / multi frigate defence. My offensive task forces retreated away from the planet, and the only ship that approached the planet was the Troop Carrier, which was promptly cut to shreds by the enemy fighters and frigates, then combat ended. What do I have set wrongly? The task force orders seem sensible enough but the results were a disaster! I'd appreciate some pointers on what fleet orders or controls will permit me a more credible attack!!!

4) I also saw that in some small battles with myself having a fleet with single task force of maybe 4 frigates, that during attacking my fleet would retreat when one member of the group started to be heavily damaged. All other members were functional, and everyone had supplies and ordnance. Attempting to hit controls to break formation or to attack the remaining enemies made no difference! I had to wait for combat to end, split the damaged craft away from the fleet, and then attack again to complete the job. What am I doing wrong here?

5) The only crash I had was while running a combat in Strategic mode - I set x8 speed, and I CTD'd when hitting Close once it was complete.

6) It's been a lot of fun! This changes made so far in Balance really go a long way. The ability to make Ordnance Storage and Supply Storage ships is essential, the fact that the AI can organise a reasonable attack has kept me on my toes, and I am loving the new SE5 Tactical Combat engine! I also prefer the approach to research in Balance, to help the AI avoiding retrofit madness, and also for my own purposes.

Please keep up the good work! I can't wait to get stuck back in to my game and take my revenge on the Jraenar with some shiny new crystal armoured destroyers!

P.S. I know that there's been some complaining about the original release of SE5 being a bit incomplete. Clearly things are already taking shape, the game is definitely playable to me now and I can see from the fix lists that things are going to continue to improve in the near future! I really think it's safe to relax since the remaining bugs and interface oddities will clearly get progressively squished, and the amazing potential of this game will come about!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Just one more impression:
I conquered a full homeworld (4000M population and three weapon platforms) with only 40 small troops. This seems not very balanced to me. I would recommend, that you increase the militia per population.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I don't know. I've had run-ins with the Drushocka and Xi'Chung were they have proactively attacked me and any weakly colonies.

That only seems to happen if you live right next to the enemy or in the same system, though. If there's 1-2 systems or more seperating you you can basically be sure the AI wont attack( except sometimes early in the game, never in late game), from my experience. I'll try a few comp vs. human at maximum AI bonus and see how it turns out.

1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!

At which turn did you notice this? At turn 150 none of the 6 AI empires have put out any mines in my current game.

2.) The main empires are too friendly.

Definitely. 5-6 of them should be made war-like, very hard to make treaties with. Perhaps even do an Imperium Galactica twist and have a couple of races who *can't* make peace? Would make the whole universe a little more busy and interesting.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

"1.) The AI launches mines in the sector of his colonies: That's something I haver never seen before and just excellent!!

At which turn did you notice this? At turn 150 none of the 6 AI empires have put out any mines in my current game."

About turn 40.

PS: I switched all players to human control to check this. Two empires were using mines in the sectors of some of their colonies: the Xiati and to a lesser extent the Abbidon.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That's odd though. If you check settings.txt the militia should provide at least 80 troops in addition to whatever defenses are there. Was the case?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Definitely not. I think there were some 10-20 militia.
Yes, according to your data there should have been much more militias.
Unfortunately I already continued with the game so I can't go back and verify it again. But you should check if the number of militia is not bugged.