Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I just wonder how could this happen. My golem was moving to castle and was scripted to cast Returning the first turn. But when he got attacked by teleporting Atlantis' KOtD he casted Personal Luck instead and was naturally killed by Magic Duel.
I strongly suppose that this is a heavy bug. Any comments?

p.s. yes, he had two gems to cast Returning.
p.p.s. I double checked the previous turn and have both files at my disposal.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I started the discussion in the main thread. You may find it here.
This seems to be a very weird bug and this loss is very, very heavy. Something around 100 gems total and a couple of very poverful unique artifacts for an unpredictable bug. Probably, this is not a matter of life and death but it nearly is taking on account the position of our team. As a game admin (and not even an interested person), I would suggest rehost (llamaserver now perfectly allows such thing) with some minor changes but it is up to the players to decide.
I'd like to ask every team to tell what they think about the situation and then we'll decide what to do. (I see the only way guarantee that the bug won't happen again when rehosting - if Meglobob changes orders for his KotD - but that's discussable)

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

For the sake of fairness I don't mind a rehost, so long as the original turn files are used.

ano, the way you describe it, it does sound like a bug or maybe not a bug but a lousy AI that sometimes overrides your scripted commands. You can try to run your turn with the full debug open and there track the AI reasoning for casting personal luck rather than returning. If this has happened b/c of AI rehost will not help change that.

I'm sorry for your loss -in the sense that its unpredicted thus unfair (I'm still opposing you after all).

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I dont really care for I had no important battles or random events this turn.

P.S.
Could Llamabeast check an old 2h perhaps, just for the sake of it?

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I did it actually. Look at the thread I provided a link to. Log says that golem didn't have enough gems for the casting. Also, Reay commented there that he had had an absolutely identical situation in Fallacy game so I think that it is an unstable bug.
I also think that the files should be sent to Illwinter if the devs have time for it.

As I mentioned above, the only option I see is if Meglobob changes orders for his KotD. I can't script golem to retreat because it is mindless and will die, and you're absolutely true, it may happen again if everyhting is left untouched.
I think if we decide rehosting, the only person who should change his orders is Meglobob. For others "Waiting for .2h file" will mean that they didn't change anything. At least, llamaserver says so.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I'll PM him and ask him to.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Well, I've checked the files used in hosting and the golem was indeed scripted to cast returning, and did indeed have two pearls when the battle with the KotD began.

As for the rollback I have no opinion. It certainly seems like an annoying bug.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Well, I've checked the files used in hosting and the golem was indeed scripted to cast returning, and did indeed have two pearls when the battle with the KotD began.

As for the rollback I have no opinion. It certainly seems like an annoying bug.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I suggest sending your files to Illwinter. Bugs are much much easier to find if you have an example of where they're occurring.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Until a decision whether or not to rehost is made I'm not going to start processing current turns. So I hope the decision will be reached soon.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yeah, sure, go for it. I don't mind a rehost - haven't even looked at the current turn yet and think I'll avoid doing so. :)

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Thanks, everyone, thanks, llamabeast.
I think that the majority of players already agreed to rehost so we'll have to wait for Meglobob to change his order. If anyone sees another solution, I'll gladly listen to it.

I'll send the files to Illwinter and post this to the bug thread in the evening (however, I don't really remember the email)

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Can we run the exact same turn again, with everyone using the exact same orders, including me teleporting in and casting magic duel? Your golem obviously casting returning?

In the main thread you said in tests it always cast returning, so it may have been just a rare bug, will help Illwinter probably as well.

I do not want teleport--->magic duel tactic taken away from me.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I don't mind just rerunning the turn but what if it happens again? Will you agree to second rehost in this particular situation?

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

From my programming experience I strongly suspect that this bug is unstable in the meaning that it depends on some particular conditions. We don't understand what the conditions are but if they are not random, it will happen again. If you read my post in the main thread, the debug log said that golem ran out of gems while he definitely had enough.
Anyway, I agree that it will be very informative to just rerun the current turn.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Just run the turn again with all the same orders, hopefully it will not repeat.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Meglobob, has a point there though. True, the bug (if indeed that's what it is) is annoying but if we start rehosting every time it happens it will effectively disallow teloport+ magic dual to be used.

I suggest we limit the restarts to this once only. Everyone on this game got a fair warning that there may be an unstable bug related to casting of returning. Plan accordingly from now on.

Well, my opinion at least.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Lets run the turn again, exact same orders. Hopefully, returning will work, end of issue.

If it is still bugged then I will change my order for the S mage, all other orders will remain the same. This will allow the golem to move back to the castle safe and sound. However, at that point everyone knows the situation, so no more rehosts in the future should the same situation arise again. You will just after be more careful with your golem Ano.

I think this is fair to all the players in the game.

Btw I am keen for Illwinter to look at it and deciede if it is a bug or not. But we cannot hold up the game for that.

The debug is:-

comp_castspell: No eval Returning due to gems

Quote:
Not enough vis for Returning

It could mean your golem + 10PD or so thought my single S mage was no threat to them and so your golem choose to not waste 2s gems casting returning. Such is the way of AI scripting. But no one knows, other than the developers.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yes, I agree that is fair. Thanks for understanding. Also, no matter what the result is, I think the devs should take care of it because it is very weird indeed.
Rehosting will be soon

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Just rolled the turn back but llamaserver still writes "turn 48". Hopefully, it doesn't matter :).

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Same thing, just as I suspected with the only difference that now KotD died. So the bug is stable in the sense that it depends on some conditions.
I will roll back the turn again now. Meglobob, please change your order and hopefully we'll be done with it at last.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Ok, I will cancel the teleport--->magic duel. No more rehosts after this!

Its not a instant kill you know, magic duel the golem has a 50/50 chance of surviving. I think its WAD. Your golem is not casting Return because its confident that he and the 10 PD you have in there are enough to defeat a lone mage. Thats just how dom3 works.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I already said that I don't mind this being the last rehost, moreover, I agree with all WraithLord said. As for the "golem is confident", I think (as a dom3 user, not an interested person) that ignoring orders in case like this is absolutely definitely not WAD and also as debug log says that golem didn't have enough gems, it's a bug for sure and thus not WAD.
Please, don't think that I'm begging for something or smth. like that. If someone else ran into such situation, my reaction would be absolutely the same.

Also, I'd like to note that I first gave all gear and gems to a scout who was located in the same province but then I thought that golem is even more safe than a scout and can be killed in no way and gave everything back. I was mistaken, as we can see... I really hate situations when death or life is not a matter of strategy or tactics but a matter of one or another weird unexpected bug. So, once again I want to state that my reaction doesn't depend on the flag of that golem's god.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Sigh, I knew I shouldn't look at the turn, but I couldn't help it.

Host 1: Kill the bad banelord, much rejoicing
Host 2: Bad banelord gets away
Host 3: Bad banelord kills 4 of my mages then gets away


Please, no more hostings of this turn! The banelord will probably kick my dog and run off with my daughter!

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Baalz, I'm really sorry. I know that rehostings are evil but still it's the same matter of luck.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Oh I'm not upset, just trying to be humorous.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Just to make sure. We are past the re-hosts and can safely play the last turns sent. right?

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Looking at the sent turns I have an issue of my own similar in nature to ano's, though I'm not asking for a rehost or something, just to understand.

So one of my big armies is targeted by Agartha pretender for RoS. I've scripted a marshmaster to CM and some shamans as CS. Then on 2nd round my CM cast BE but the strange thing is, the CS don't get this bonus.

Then in another battle of my armies I had the same scripting with same results. CM casting BE do not give CS the bonus.

Make sense to anyone?

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

How about we end this madness and return to the FIRST .trn?
Now we are being bombarded by bad events we didnt have originally. Messy AI is a part of this game, I had my golems behave strange many times. When everyone exept you gets much worse turns after rehosting, there's something wrong with it.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yes, sure. I would indicate if it wasn't so.
First. If it were you who ran into an unexpected severe bug and asked for a rehost I would be first to support you and it would have nothing to do with my own turn and my own situation. I would regret if something went wrong just as Baalz did, nothing more
Second. I don't know why you are so sure that my (our) results are better.
Third. You didn't mind rehosting and it was your decision.
Fourth. The discussion is over. It's just sad to read all this.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I saw your CM casting Luck and Twist Fate and both affected all slaves. What exactly do you mean?
And also, both BE's you did cast there shouldn't give any bonus to slaves from what I know.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Probably, BE meant Body Ethereal, right?
It will never affect slaves because it is AoE 1 while slaves are affected only by "self-buffs"

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Much good did writing the buff thread do me :)

You got it right, I forgot BE was not self buff.

While we're at it, I find it strange the RoS kills heavily armored units such as Ctis city guards and also kills mages equipped with armor and helmet. I've even scripted poor marshmasters to cast mossbody all to no avail. So far the only protection from RoS I've found are BE and mistform and to a lesser extent luck and twist fate.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Actually the best protection against ROS is Arrowfend.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I strongly suspect this is an illusion. Contact karnoza on this issue. He also believed that AF protects well and got hit heavily.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I have sent my turn in but llamaserver is having difficulty contacting the server. You may want to extend the deadline, just to make sure it does not host before receiving our turns.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yes, I postponed hosting by 15 hours to be sure that everybody has time to submit his turn. If the mail server problem isn't fixed until tomorrow morning, I'll postpone it further.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

RoS damage seems to be way higher than stated by tooldtip indeed. Wonder if its WaI.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

RoS is like the battlefield version of blade wind. Blade wind would never have killed high prot. + shields + helms troops and mages the way RoS has done on a few occasions my armies were attacked by Agartha. Again, the only prot. against RoS the way it seems to be operating now is, ethearility, mistform or extremely high prot (24 should suffice).

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

In test games, I've had RoS kill prot 30 mages. Well they were fatiqued, so maybe RoS critted... In MP, I also was on the receiving end of RoS while playing CTis once. I just didnt understand how did RoS kill all my marchguards in one casting. Perhaps 'stones' are AOE, so they hit same square several times?..

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Well for a spell that can kill up to prot. 30 armies entirely I think its clear that it should be made more expensive and upped in research tree. Of course I accept it the way it currently is (not much choice there), but it doesn't mean I think it makes much sense.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Hey bossman, of the last three turns, Ive only had one legit...appears no matter which order I send in my turns (and ossas) oceania comes back with CD validation error. Also, Im moving across the country in 3 days, so hopefully he will be back by then. Otherwise, might need someone to run both the nations :)

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

That's strange sending two nations turns from same computer works for me for sometime now.

ano, can you please postpone hosting by 24h?

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Strange indeed.
Klagrok, did you play both turns from the same PC?

Hosting postponed.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yes on the same computer :) . It has worked a few times, but last two turns went through, not corrupted like it has been a few times (i created another game slot for ossa), but still getting stale turn reports.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Don't know why it is happening.
The only thing I can offer is that you send someone not engaged in this game your .2h file and then ask him to submit it.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I think its important to get to the bottom of this.
First thing I can say is that llamaserver emits a warning when two turns are submitted with same keys. Now I find it strange that it reports Ctis+Man and Van+R'lyeh and not your nations.

Maybe something more fundamental is wrong with your turns.

I guess when llamabeast be back from his vacation (today?) he may be able to help you resolve this.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Llamaserver doesn't report it because one of the turns is staled due to key violation. The question is why this violation occurs.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

Yes, but I had started a dedicated thread (can't find it now) for the question of possible key violations and it was confirmed from numerous sources that submitting multiple turns from same computer should not cause key violation. It makes sense for it allows one player to sub for a teammate in a team game, it allows to create setups in which a player may control more than one nation. I guess it also allows hot seat to work. Only issue is using same key from different computers (rights violation).

That is why I find the stales due to invalid key strange. It doesn't sit well with confirmed behavior as described above.

Re: Qwerty - MA team game. Running
 

I remember your thread and yes, this behaviour is strange. Maybe something in the submitted turns was different enough for the game to declare it key violation. I don't see any other explanation.