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I do belive I have replayed to you PM.

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I believe there are special sites there.

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Saruud is playing Vanheim

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There's no such user.

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:rolleyes: Typo, it's Saarud

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Going AI, night night.

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Everyone please welcome Radioheart, he will be the new ruler of Vanheim.

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I think we'll be needing a sub for the subbed sub soon...

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Hey wow. Vanheim under new management. Who is on our side? Dispatch messengers to declare your allegiance. Any big wars going on I should know about, specifically wars involving Vanheim?

Should have a turn posted by late tonight, early Sunday morning. If you have anything important for me to consider, send it in.

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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41327 <- I think Mictlan just declared war on you!

Besides that there are individual wars going on all over the place, but this is the only one that concerns you to my knowledge.

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Actually Mictlan declared war on the former ruler a few turns ago.

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The Sauromatia is shoked by Mictlan's behavior.
Seeng Mictlan has started taking provinces of my enemy - Marveni, after Marveni were put to AI, I've sent the notification to Mictlan representative about coordinating our moves in order to avoid fighting each other. I've send him numbers of provinces I was going to atack and asked if it was OK with him. With his confirmation received I sent my troops.
Today I watch my turn-file and find my prophet bumping into 110 Mictlan sacred units instead of Marveni PD resulting him swift death. So far I had a NAP-3 with Mictlan, but this is inappropriate. Waiting for the comments from Executor about this incident.

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You are talking about province 289 right?
It was my province until Marverni AI took it from me 2 turns ago, You can check it if you don't believe me. If I missed seeing that you are going to attack that province too I'm sorry that but I was just retaking it.
I did say also that I will not take any Marverni provinces as I have not and was able to take several this turn also.

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Executor
I checked the turns, indeed, it used to be your province, my apologee. I'm a new player in this game and do not remember territories precisely. But I did inform you about my intention taking it, so you could have written something like: "Yes, take all provinces exept 289 - it was mine, I'm retaking it." Please read diplomacy messages more carefuly, and give more specific answers next time.

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Do not trust Agartha for they are oathbreakers, we received a message saying they will honer our 3 turn NAP before any hostile activities, and suddenly they attacked.

We are sure we can handle them on our own, but now we offer to any nation that declares war on Agartha 80 water, 40 earth, 40 astral, 40 fire gems.

To the Nation who captures their Capital we shall send Aurgelmer and 100 blood slaves.

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The Vanheim seems to be staling again. Should we search for the sub already?

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Told you so...

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Executor
I see... Met him before?

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He's in another game where I'm in and he isn't staling there. Radioheart right?
Anyway Vanheim is behind very badly and they'd be done with in a couple of turns if Agartha didn't interfere.

I've even PM'd him but he never answered.

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No, Executor claimed that he'd pew pew pwn the sub (not his exact words lol)and that I'd be needing to find another sub. Which it looks like I will have to.

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Err, hey yeah sorry about that. Still here though. Had a hard time getting a handle on the Van in this game, and I didn't mean to stale these past two turns. Just not much I can do with an income nearly all spent on upkeep and no real class A mages at hand.

Mostly making a turn wouldn't be so different from a stale, though I suspect Mictlan would've been battered by a half dozen more Blights.

Will try and work harder. Hah. Haven't looked at the newest turn yet, so hope there is still something to work with.

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I can play for Van's. :)

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Slobby
karnoza is the player I PMed you about.

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Well looks like I'll have to be a hardass yet again. Radioheart while your subbing has been appreciated, you're out and Karnoza is in. Karnoza send me a pm with your email and I'll get you set up.

Note that I will most likely extend the current turn by 24-48 hours due to the time differences between Karnoza and I, so that he'll have a chance to familiarize himself with the position.

I apologize for the delay all, and appreciate your patience.

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Greetings to all. As a sub I have some questions:
1. Can you write me here or through PM about current pacts with other nations?
2. I propose standart NAP 3 to everyone except Mictlan.

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Hahaha, why so hostile?

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So I guess this might be considered a World War against Mictlan ah?
So far 4 nations, who else might join???

This is really pathetic, 4 against 1 and yet you use exploits and break NAPs.

Vanheim, sneaking an army away from a siege is considered a exploit.

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I wouldn't consider moving stealth units out of a siege situation an exploit. I believe you were thinking of the bug reported in post 14 in the bug thread shortlist at the following link,

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=33557&page=2

The movement of non stealth units led by a stealthy commander was the bug, which I would agree to be an exploit. However, it is reported as fixed. I've tried to reproduce it and cannot, so I can only assume Van led stealth units out, which I believe is WAD.

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Oh, my apologies you are correct, I misinterpreted that expoit. However I ever dislike NAP breakers and if you're gonna go 2,3,4 against one, you might at least have the courtesy to say, I declare war and wait those 3 turns. OR honer the NAP once you say: 'I declare war and will honer our NAP', and than attack before it ends. Those are low tactics.

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I just came as a representative from Caelum, in the Standards game. We are officially declaring war on Mictlan in this game.

Take that!

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That's a bit more of sticky situation, and I really don't know if there's anything that can be done. This game was made before the great debate on the meaning of NAPs and as such there is nothing stating what NAPs mean, or whether or not they should be binding or mere lip service.

On the plus side it could have been 5 on 1, as I was seriously thinking of attacking you to.

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If someone chooses to break a NAP is their decision, but it gives a bad reputation, and I watch and conspire against those players in any other games as do other players I presume. Once someone crosses you over you tend to lose confidence in him.

Now seeing what type of players are in this game, I very well may decide to kill the game by casting Armagedon several times, or utherdark and spells alike.
What would that be considered?

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That's entirely your perogative. Although in all honesty how many players of this game have screwed you over? There are 8 players left not including yourself, you're at war with 4 of them, and 2-3 may have back stabbed you. So you're hurting atleast 5 other players for no reason.

To be honest at first I did feel bad for you, however I now recall that you're in Timewarp, a game where back stabbing is allowed (and is spelled out as such in the opening thread). You say you're all about keeping your pacts, etc. and yet you signed up for a game that's the complete opposite. :confused: With your dominant position in Timewarp, I'll give the following advice, trust no one, because other players will probably turn on you soon enough.

Imo it seems to me that you're more upset over being dealt a losing hand, within 1-2 turns, after months of manoevering to your current position...sure it sucks, but there can only be one.

It's funny that I feel all your anger is directed at me and yet I've done nothing to you, thems the breaks of being the admin I guess.

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No my anger isn't directed at you slobby, when everyone started avoiding my PM's then I realised what was being organized, World War against Mictlan.

Probably a smart call too since I was maybe second on score graphs but you really can't tell who's stronger, me or Cealum, who is being left alone all game by the way and will probably win.

I do uphold my pacts, ALWAYS. I joined Timewarp because I wanted to try a big game and yes I know you organized it. And as far diplomacy goes, if NAP breaking is ok that still doesn't mean everybody's gonna break them. And if they are not ok that doesn't mean everybody is gonna respect that, so it makes little difference what you said in the thread.

"Imo it seems to me that you're more upset over being dealt a losing hand"

Yes, true, 4 against 1 isn't a winning combination, I don't like giving time to a game that I know I'm gonna lose, but keep in mind that I can make a big influence on who wins the game. So come and get it, we've got: Chalice, Boots of Planes, Sicle, A.o.Virtue, Dimension Rod, Aurgelmer, Unquenched Sword, The Sceptre and various other unique items, and whole bunch of gems that we'll decide who to give.

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You keep speaking as if you are innocent. I recieved reports that YOU broke YOUR NAP with my ALLY. Seeing as how I don't have an email ever stating that you and I had a NAP I felt obliged to assist my ALLY.

Spin it how you want. Those who know the truth will merely chuckle as the seeds one sows come back to haunt the sower.

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What the hell are you talking about???

I didn't break the NAP, I waited until it was over and attacked.

How would I even have your email address to send you an email? We agreed on a NAP on either on a PM or in-game message, not sure how but I'm sure that there was one.

I'm not spinning anything, clearly you are.
I have the turn where you stated, I declare war and will honor our 3 turn NAP, and than you attacked.

If Vanheim was your ally, than with which ruler were you allied with since this is the third one I'm in war with, so was it Karnoza, Radioheart or who ever was before him?

Do you have any idea how ridicules that what you said sounds? You disregarded our NAP because I attacked your ally ( which you didn't either say he was, so I couldn't have knowen ), even after you stated you WOULD honor it and wait the 3 turns.

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I, as a sub for Agartha, have never made a NAP with you. so stop your raving. When i subbed in everyone else PMed me over the forums or through email (since you can't keep track of these things in game) and arranged for our relations to be agreed upon. Even those who were at war with Agartha at the time. I got nothing from you, except a PM asking for hammers.

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IF that was even the cast, which it isn't since we DID HAVE A NAP, why would you state that out you are canceling it?

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HA LIAR!
I just found the turn where you agreed to a NAP. Turn 40 message sent to you, turn 42 answer arrived where you agreed to a NAP.

What do you have to say about that?

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I thought we did, but then I checked my records and it was actually Marverni, so it was a missend. The only message from you I have ever recieved was a PM over the forums asking if I was playing agartha and if so if you could buy some hammers, (which I responded "yes I have hammers but I will not be selling them to you". Your response indicated you got the message clearly). Why would you think that we had a NAP when we never made a NAP. Obviously the message was a mistaken. You can cry all you want. But you and I, my friend, never made a NAP. All my neighbors did though, including the ones you attacked.

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in game? hmm ... weird. well I cant keep track of things that are only in game especially as that was one of the first turns I played I believe as Agartha and was getting messsages from all sorts of people (most of them were actually reasonable human beings and did it over the forums though). A begginner's mistake I guess. I'll not be making that mistake again. I'll stop attacking you for three turns.

My apologies.

By the way, how do you recall that info, it might come in handy when trying to keep this stuff straight, oh never mind. I just won't deal with in game messages other than to tell people if they have something to say, do it over the forums or through emails so a person can reasonably be expected to keep track of these things.

And maybe if you want these things to be actually remembered and honored you should take the time to do so yourself. And maybe you should not lose your **** over something like this. I mean calling me a liar because I don't remember two ingame messages that happened nearly twenty turns ago. Sheesh.

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You should keep track of your treaty's with other players.

I looked which turn you took over Agartha and went trough my mail for earlier turns since I knew we had a NAP.

What's done is done, I've proven my self correct and I am not asking for cease of hostilities. I never had a problem with anyone attacking me but I did with NAP breaking, that was my only point, so continue the war, no breaks.

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If you want that you should make treaties you want remembered through means with which players can keep track of these things. I'm pretty sure Dom3 doesn't have an in-game treaty tracker, which is why everyone else used other methods.

If you rely on unreliable methods, expect unreliable results. I admit that I have a memory that will lose tracks of such things after a couple of months, but I certainly am no breaker of formal agreements or a liar.

You may be "correct", but certainly you are not justified.

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I don't usually use the in game messages, only sometimes in the begining when I don't expect much diplomacy, but that doesn't mean that it would be disregarded.
Even so, if you get a PM about a treaty that isn't much different from the in game system, just faster. You'll lose track there in a few month also, there is a limit of 300 messages max.
It makes little difference how a treaty is made, the important thing is that there is one.

I tend to write down my treaty's from various games so this doesn't happen, I suggest the same.

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I fail to see how writing it down would make it any more reliable than an email or a PM, and really the issue is an aside.

My main point is:

Before you fly off the handle accusing people personally of being liars and cheats you should calm down first and maybe just send a message saying,
"Hey, we only ever talked about this in-game so maybe you forgot, but we had a NAP and I see you have attacked me."
My response would have been just as reasonable, at which point things could have been handled much more amiably.

Simple as that.

Also, a handy tip.
You can download your message files as an html file or such for archival pruposes. A simpler standard, I think, than writing down all in game messages on paper (which weren't diregarded by the way, just forgotten and missed in the shuffle with no way to refer back).

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You're missing my point,
I ment it as a way to keep track who you have a treaty with, so my scenario doesn't happen again, not for the sake of other people but for you. If someone wants to disregard a NAP he'll do it be it signed by a PM, Email or In game message, it makes no difference.

My first reaction was a post saying that you broke the NAP which you said you'd uphold. It met no answer, so I continued as nothing had happened, but the matter reopened when I was backstabbed once again and than you claimed we never even had a NAP. Now that one did make me "fly off the handle"

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Try a PM next time, your much more likely to get a response. Public accusations and denouncements are hardly amiable first responses to a problem. Rather than assuming everyone is a liar and an honor-less dog, maybe a quick PM to see if it was a mistake and allow people to do the right thing. If you do not give me a chance to behave decently how can I ever prove to you that I would? Again I'm sorry for the mistake, but next time try and refrain from public denouncements of my character until you have at least messaged me first ...

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You had plenty time to explain you self when I stated that you broken your NAP, but you chose not to.

"Rather than assuming everyone is a liar and an honor-less dog"

Not everyone, just those who really are honorless and will not state that there is even a remote chance that they could be wrong.

I did get a responce from Sauromatia, can't say he's right, but I did get an answer at least.

And if you do not trust in game system that much why do you use it yourself?

EDIT: by the way your action at that point clearly showed that you broke the NAP on purpose, it turned not to be so, but if someone did the same thing against you what would you think?

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I did not "choose" to be unresponsive, I simply never read (or posted in, for that matter) the "Beer" thread until today. I have stated in another thread that as a full-time student and employee I don't have time to read threads. I check everyday for emails and PMs, that's it usually. Unfortunately I cannot devout my life and all my time to this game, otherwise I assure you I would have responded to these uncalled for libelous attacks. The only reason I have responded so much today is because I am on winter break, which started this week. So I did not "hear" of any of these accusations until today, at which point I responded.

And mistakes make people honorless? That's pretty ridiculous.

I generally don't, after I got confused from too many messages in game I started replying to people over the forums because I was having trouble keeping track of what agreements the previous player had made with his neighbors and where I stood coming as a sub. Like I said, I never heard anything from you out of game so your messages were forgotten, a mistake, but an honerst one. Anyone who messaged me over the forums was not forgotten and has been treated fairly and honestly.

If someone did that to me I would do exactly as I suggested anyone do. Give people a chance to actually behave well instead of just assuming they are not. Maybe I am an idealist, but at least I don't make an *** of myself by whining and moaning and calling people names puiblicly without being certain that I am justified to do so.

I apologized for the mistake, proven that it was honest and understandable and offered to make ammends, and yet I still haven't heard you apologize for your public abuse. At this point you have proven yourself unreasonable and I wont be dealing with you any longer since it will obviously be a waste of time.

One last piece of advice before I am done though. This is JUST a game in the end. Try and keep that in mind the next time you feel like abusing real people over it.

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"And mistakes make people honorless? That's pretty ridiculous."

Mistakes don't make people honorless

But, What you are constantly failing to realise is that your attack didn't seem like a mistake at that moment. You said you'd honer the NAP and then you attacked, that doesn't seem like a mistake to me.

"but at least I don't make an *** of myself by whining and moaning and calling people names puiblicly without being certain that I am justified to do so."

First of all I'm not either moaning or calling anyone names, if I was believe me you'd know, I had already let the matter with you go away as it happened over half a month ago (there was only one single post calling you an oathbreaker and a bounty on your capital, which I consider is by no means offensive to ANYONE).
My post wasn't directed to you but to WingedDog who did break the NAP on purpose as he explained. NOTHING POSTED RECENTLY was directed to you. You were the one that started this row and getting at me as if I was Hitler or something so I really don't know what your problem is?

I explained myslef and Slobby seemed to understand what I was saying about being jumped on and backstabbed, but than you jumped in with statements that I'm spinning something and that I'm the real oathbreaker and that "Those who know the truth will merely chuckle as the seeds one sows come back to haunt the sower" what ever the hell that means??? And that I'm raving and crying over the NAP that you said on several occasion we never HAD, which I proven you incorrect.

So maybe you should reconsider what you've been directing at me and calm down youself a little.

"and yet I still haven't heard you apologize for your public abuse. At this point you have proven yourself unreasonable and I wont be dealing with you any longer since it will obviously be a waste of time."

Public abuse? Towards who?? Slobby, Karnoza, WingedDog???
Maybe I do come out a little unreasonable but I'm certainly not the only one.

This was never supposed to became personal, I stated that you're (plural as in more than 1 player) using low tactics and you made it look personal.

If I offended someone, which I'm certain I dind't, I apologize to them but not to you as maybe I'm wrong but the is no chance that you are correct.