Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Wow.

Yes, I too blame the Democrats for helping Europe rebuild after WWII. o_0

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Obama calls people tax payers that are not paying taxes, and in fact are welfare recipients.

Obamas own figures show that everyone earning under $226K a year gets a tax cut. This is where he gets the 95% figure.

My point - is that 38% of these people are not PAYING any taxes.
(48% after his plan)

So really it breaks out something like this:

Somewhat more than 38% of people will get money, when they pay nothing.
Something like 50% will get a tax decrease.
And something like 5% will get a huge increase.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

If it was an opinion piece, I would accept the merit of your opinion.

However, since I am betting you did not even look at the article, I will clarify. The article uses statistics compiled from the economic report that the White House presents to the President himself, and Congress, every year. If you doubt the veracity of the analysis itself, simply because you consider the source biased - then I would offer to confirm the results. But since I am sure you would consider me biased at this point (yes, I am biased towards truth, rather than denial), then maybe you should follow the link the the government webpage that will allow you to directly download the entire report, in PDF format.



Do you honestly believe that? How on Earth can you state something like that as fact? The Federal government clearly disagrees on your assertion that deficit increased under Clinton. In fact, by their records, he showed the only budget surplus since 1969 (2001 was still in surplus, but the year a President takes office, is not their budget).

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Somewhat more than 38% of people will get money, when they pay nothing.
Something like 50% will get a tax decrease.
And something like 5% will get a huge increase.

what can I say... sounds good?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Lets make it simple:

1. The USA was the only world power to escape WWII with its economy intact.
2. The democrats retained power for significantly all of the 40 year period.
3. The democrats did a world class job of managing the economy.

One of those things has to be false. Because if it were true, the US would still have an equally dominant economy.

I believe the statistics show that after wwii, the gnp of the american economy exceeded all other powers involved in the war - combined. In fact, the GNP of the American economy is more than 50% of the GNP of the rest of the world combined.

It certainly wasn't true after 40 years of democratic rule.

So Jims assertion that the democrats do (did) an outstanding job of managing the economy fails on its face.

But if you need a link, here is a comparison of US growth rates to japanese growth rates post wwii:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5aE...esult#PPA45,M1

Here you see similiar statistics for france, italy and spain
ie., that they are narrowing the per person gdp all through the 1960s and 1970s... IE., that the the democrats did not do an outstanding job.. indeed - they did worse than the managers of four countries.

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/181

In fact, if you examine the data further, they did worse than the managers of virtually *all* those world powers over the same period.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Obama's campaign released his birth certificate on June 13, 2008 and launched a fact-check Web site named Fightthesmears.com in response to allegations that he doesn't have a valid birth certificate, and in response to allegations that he would be muslim (which isn't true as well). The state's Department of Health director of Hawai‘i released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

It takes me less than a minute to look up these things in Google and debunk your stories, again and again, I wonder why you don't manage to do that yourself. Again, conspiracy sites and attack sites are hardly the right source of information. If you'd make a minimal effort to check the facts yourself you wouldn't have to make such a poor impression here.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I don't think that I stated anyone did an excellent (or stellar) job of anything. However, the statistics compiled by our own government show with clear numbers, that averaging out each year under a Democratic President there was a trend of better performance in every economic indicator, than there was under a Republican President.

Some of the statistics in the report (compiled by our government! I can't stress this enough) do start in the 40's, and some start in the 50's. I believe the reason to do the table of statistics as they were done in the article, was to only use data beginning in years when data in all areas was available


The Democrats have not "been in power" for the last 40 years, that is patently false. How can you even make such a claim, when the directly observable trends in areas of economy, society, and bureaucracy swing in VERY different directions when there is a Republican President in the White House (as there has been for 20 of the last 28 years, for example).

In fact, according to all indicators, as tracked by our own government, perhaps you could postulate that Democrats haven't done a "stellar" job with the economy, but it is also glaringly obvious from these figures that the Republicans did substantially, and reliably worse (f not horribly so).


I hardly see what deficit figures near 100% of the annual tax incomes for the last 3 years of WWII has to do with anything? The entire world was under rather unique economic stresses at the time, and we came through it the best that we could.

Let me give you an interesting bit of information, while we are on the subject of taxation, spending, deficit, and the relative performance of Presidents of different parties.....

This is the % increase in our national debt, over the period of a particular President's time in office (first 2 lumped because JFK wasn't around long enough, nor Ford....) -

JFK+LBJ = 28.24%
Nixon+Ford = 70.6%
Carter = 44.51% (I'll agree, this one is bad enough)
Reagan = 186.14% (makes Carter look like a financial GENIUS)
Bush Sr= 53.85% (worse in 4 years than even Carter as well)
Clinton = 40.65%
Bush Jr = 71.52%

So you see, according to our own internal bookkeeping, every Democrat has performed better in terms of the relative balance of revenue/spending than the Republican that followed them.


And yet, still, these numbers are embarassing. Neither party should consistently see debt growth on such a ridiculous scale. My argument the entire time was that what we truly need is a new paradigm altogether, and a new system whereby we can have a functioning economy, AND a functioning social infrastructure. While both are inarguably dysfunctional in American today (and have been for decades), there is a measurable difference, in all available benchmarking, that favors Democrats in nearly all statistical categories that we can look at.

So to reiterate - I do not think that any Democrat, Obama included, is the real answer we are looking for. But at the same time, it is ridiculous to claim that a Democrat will be worse than a Republican (in general terms), based on party affiliation, for any purpose other than your anger at having your income potential hampered, as one of those top 5% earners in the nation. If you're in the other 95%, and most of us are, then you are being completely deceived into your vote, and that is a statistically corroborated fact, because a Republican will do far more harm to you than a Democrat will.

<3

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

And it looks like Obama for the win! YAY!

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Yay, Obama won, it's the democrat's turn to wreck occidental economy ! Just kidding guys, don't get the guns out.By the way, I really hope BO won't get shot out.
Giving my stranger 'point de vue' : I hope he really is the change motor USA needs today to stay world leaders, chinese scare me a bit. As he is from Yale, I'm afraid he'll be just as other USA politicians : lobby rules, poor gets poorer (I'm talking of USA poor !)...etc

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I am relieved that Obama won.

But it sad that I am merely relieved. I think that we have so many problems that I admit to great fears that many of them will/can not be overcome. But at least there is a modicum of hope.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

ACORN's not "pseudo-marxist." In fact I'm really not sure what "pseudo-marxist" is. You're either for the dictatorship of the proletariat and the destruction of the bourgeoisie or you're against it. Last I checked, Obama was against it. ACORN doesn't even have a stated position on taxes or the economy in general. Their focus is housing for low income people. The voter registration stuff spun out of that.

Ayers is a distinguished professor of education at U. Illinois Chicago. He and Obama served on a board about education reform (the Annenberg project) that had republican funding. Apparently he wasn't too much of a terrorist to get invited to sit on that board, or to be declared Chicagoan of the year in 1997 for his work on it. I'm not denying that they're acquaintances, even friends. What I'm denying is that Ayers is a "terrorist." That "didn't do enough" line about his activities in the 60's that keeps getting thrown around isn't "didn't bomb enough" but "didn't oppose the war effectively enough." Did he do some stupid things in the 60's? Yes. Is he a fringe voice or terrorist sympathizer now? Hardly.

If by "blame first and always" you mean "acknowledge errors and work to correct them," I agree. We've just had eight years of blame last and never, and boy did it work out great.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I just remembered something, and that is a story that I read in my newspaper almost exactly three months ago, about Obama's journey through life and his supporters. Among it was the heart-warming story about him visiting his old Highschool Punahou in Honolulu on December 17th in 2004, where he spent his time from 1971 (5th grade) to 1979 (12th grade). His supervisor and liaison teacher at the time, Eric Kusunoki, embarrassedly remembers how the 13-year-old Obama offered "You may call me Barry" after Kusunoki pronounced his first name like "barracks". Yes, Barry was his nickname. No, it wasn't anything else. I'd like to see a copy of that kenyan birth certificate. You should probably know by now that you're better off by assuming that that one is a manufactured forgery, instead of the Hawaiian one, like you should have assumed it in the first place. No matter how strongly you may wish that it was the other way around.

There never was a court trial, hence he never had to or even could submit it before court. How long does it take you to pierce that into your skull?

Regarding the validity of his Hawaiian birth certificate, see my previous post on the page before.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Thats simply not true. Both in his book and in an interview after 9/11 he said he was sorry he didn't do more. When asked (after 9/11) if he was sorry if he bombed the police station he said 'no'. His wife was #1 wanted female by the FBI with a heading of 'terrorist.'

Personally, I really despise the use of labels, so had I been advising the mccain camp I would have avoided calling him a terrorist, and avoiding saying things .. like socialist, liberal.

I would have tried to explain why the facts were relevent. Just using labels tends to overstate, and I think people rejected that.

But there will always be a significant portion of the population that does not feel that ayers is a distinguished member of society.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Dude, you are either not reading my posts or english is not your first language.

I *understand* that there was never a trial.

The *reason* there was no trial was because obama/the dnc made a motion to dismiss which was granted by the judge. Said dismissal was for lack of standing.

Obama could have (I would say should have) simply said - hey judge here's my birth certificate.

Understand - the judge didn't say - obama is a citizen. What he said was, Mr. Berg - you don't have cause to seek redress.

In other words, the question of whether Obama is actually a citizen has never been answered in a court.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Jim, by the way

This is where a little understanding goes a long way. Back in 1994 (if I remember) - the democrats voted to remove/take social security obligations off the table. So while social security revenues are taken in and used to 'fund' the budget, social security obligations are no longer calculated as part of the 'federal' deficit.

The deficit figure up until 1994 or so includes SSO. The deficit numbers after do not. Someone here will look up the exact date I'm sure.

When you include social security obligations, the actual national debt is somewhere around 52 trillion dollars, and has increased every year, including your vaunted clinton years.

The deficit caused by excessive govt spending was never fixed - we just pretended the emperor has clothes. voila! the problem is fixed!

The problem is really obvious is you just take a graph of govt spending and compare it to growth in gdp. Or, look at govt spending per capita.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I wonder if you are really reading mine. Let me quote my own post again since you seem to have troubles finding it:
That underlined sentence there is a link to a Web site, BTW. If you hover your mouse over it and click, you can quickly check my statement. Or you may seek other sources that give the same information. I think my Google query was something as ingenious as "Obama birth certificate valid" or so.

I'd like you to always add sources to your statements from now on, too, since it's a hassle to go through Google and find out again and again that they're not facts but conspiracy babble. That Kenyan birth certificate would be a good start, I can't find it. And I'd like you to show your own birth certificate, too, since apparently that's customary.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I don't believe that the two are related. I suspect that the statistics show that war-damaged economies recover faster than peace-time economies can grow. As a baseline comparison, why not use the pre-war economies?

...and of those 4 countries, 3 had strong genuinely socialist political parties between WWII and now. 2 had influential communist parties, in fact. Are you suggesting that having far-left socialist rulership is better for an economy than having a far-right and centre-right 2 party state?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Aezeal, it may surprise you to know that I believe we need to increase what the poor and middle class earn. And I believe that insofar as obama gives wealth to the lowest part of our economy, that he will actually help in pulling us out of the economic prolems we are in.

However, there are good ways, and bad ways to accomplish that.

I am *all* in favor of increasing aid and grants to education.
I am all in favor of giving micro loans so people can start businesses. I am in favor of increasing the minimum wage carefully so that it doesn't cause job loss.

However, using our tax code to do this is wrong.

First, at over 10,000 pages our tax code is already ridiculous. It takes an army of accountants and lawyers to figure it out - and if you can't figure it out - correctly - you're at risk.

Second, the cost of complying with the tax code is huge and non productive - and there are lots of both productive and non productive taxes in our system.

When the government taxes a sale, for example - the government gets some money. Theoretically we all benefit. The hidden kinds of taxes are when the government makes a regulation and the benefits are non existent.

Say for example you are driving - you come to a stop sign. You stop, wait your turn and then proceed. There is no traffic for miles around - you are in the middle of nebraska.

You had to stop - at risk of getting a ticket etc. It had a cost to you - it took 2 minutes out of your day, costs you gas to accelerate again. But the point is.. in this particular case - no one benefited.

In the same way, an inpenetrable tax code benefits no one - and is in fact a hidden tax on all of us.

Second:

Mixing missions is bad policy. The purpose of the IRS should be to collect taxes. Its performance can be measured. How well did it collect taxes. How many audits did it do.. etc

Once you give another role to our tax code - collecting funds AND redistributing wealth, and promoting education, and promoting home ownership, and promoting social equality - how do you measure the success of our tax code?

Every one decries tax loopholes - but here you are saying its a good thing because it benefits you personally.

Transparent politics is letting the tax code stand on its own - and then setting up a separate program - to increase home ownership - to increase education. And each of these programs can stand on its own feet - and be measured.

Im not saying this is 100% possible - but it is a goal that should be achieved as much as feasible.

Finally:

There is the old saying - give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Benjamin Franklin said something like - the poor should not be made comfortable in poverty - then should be lead, or if necessary, driven from it.

Look, welfare reform pushed by republicans and signed by clinton was an enormous success in getting people off the welfare roles and into jobs.

We need to make jobs and living wages *more* possible for everyone, not make it easier for more people to live in welfare, which is what just giving people money is.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

http://www.republicanoperative.com/f...lly-won-1.html

Its been posted here before but I'd just like to reiterate.
Read it its scary and funy. The ignorance out there is amazing :D
For example according to some of these people the US is now:
Going to have shira law
Going to have terrorists invited round to the whitehouse.

Don't we just love fear/hate mongers. I'd like to say again that personaly I would have preferd Obama if he were Muslim but that was not very likely... he's a Muslim and worships in a church with a mad pastor... there's something wrong there... btw does Obama have a passport? He's been out of the country right? That should be adequate proof of citizenship.

Anyway read the above forumn and enjoy (but be very very scared) Oh and lets all hope that Obama is the godsend so many people wish him to be... I like him but I have a nagging feeling he'll disapoint... :(
Maybe I just haven't been brough up to expect much from the president of the united states (George Bush Jr since I was 8)

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Dude, I cannot believe you are continuing this argument.

1. There have now been THREE lawsuits on this same topic.
Source: your own kitv article. This is madness.

2. Some Democratic functionaire saying 'yes he has a legitimate' birth certificate is of *no* legal validity. Releasing a document on a webs site is of *no* legal validity.

It is a *court's* perview to settle the question. In a court, the plaintiff and the defendent could provide their own experts - and the credentials of each other can be questioned or not.

I am not taking any position on whether Obama is a citizen.

I am saying:

A. Any candidate should have to prove his qualifications.
B. Obama should have just released his birth certificate to the court, instead of squashing the suit on techical grounds.

If you want to argue with me - address those two points. I don't even see how anyone can think otherwise.

There have now been three *stupid* and time wasting lawsuits on this stupid subject. How many do we have to have? How does that help anyone? Its a big enough deal to enough people.

Obama wants to be a politician for all the people? How does it hurt anyone if he submits a birth certificate to the court *AND IT WOULD MAKE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TRUST HIM MORE*. Some of them would simply say.. huh... I guess he is eligible. Great.

You apparently think I want to discredit him as president. At the present time - I would rather he HAD a birth certificate rather than he didn't. Read it again. I would rather he had one than he didn't.

But yeah, I think a citizen has a right to know that a candidate meets the qualifications of the office.

There is a logical tactic called Reductio ad absurdum - lets use it now.

Suppose the republican party nominated Putin to be president of the United States and Karl Rove said.. yes I've seen his birth certificate. And somehow.. Putin leads in the polls. (An even better example might be renominating GWBush)

Are you really expecting me to believe that you would find that OK? You'd wouldn't want to see that in court... wouldn't expect it go to court? I know *I* would.

I think you're a liar if you say yes, you'd just accept it. So give those on the opposite side of the equation the same respect and the same rights that you'd hope to enjoy for your side.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Hey the election is over. You can reign in your short cock competition until the next one.:smirk:

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Mithras, No one questions whether Obama is a citizen. So a passport doesn't solve the question. Being a citizen is not enough to be president of the united states.

For example, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Henry Kissinger, Peter Jennings are all US citizens - and none of them can be president.

Britney Spears is *also* a US citizen - nor could she be president this year.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, I am making two assertions:

1. Statistics can be used to prove anything.
2. The statistics Jim used to prove that Democrats are better stewards are a particular egregious example of #1.

I suppose I would also advance the argument that who we are as a country now is a product of democrats and republicans - good and bad. That who we are transcends democrat or republican - and that the trends of how our country does are longer range than the time of any one president. Who can doubt that clinton benefitted from the miraculous advent of the pc and the internet when the seeds of it were sown in the late 70's and early 80s.
Who can doubt that the first two years of Obama's presidency will be dealing with the problems of this financial mess.


I don't think any serious person can argue that Reagan wasn't a great president. I personally think FDR was a disaster during the great depression -but that he was absolutely *amazing* during ww2. Who can argue that Lincoln saved the union - and Rooseveldt Teddy was a great leader.

I think Woodrew Wilson was an amazing example of american optimism and idealism - even while he did the income tax and the treaty of versailles.

Jimmy Carter, W Bush, and Grant, Taft and Polk, will all go down as mediochre presidents. And while I may not agree with you as to the role of democratic presidents in the 50s-70's.. I believe that Martin Luther King (a democrat, yes?) played a larger and more constructive role than any of those presidents.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Chrispedersen: After reading your long post about taxes etc. you seem like you have political and economic views you've thought about and that are worth debating. So why hitch your horse to this whole citizenship thing? It's a non-starter as an issue.

As for Ayers, I agree that he's not repentant about what he did in the 60's. Obama rightly condemned that.
I also agree that there are many who condemn him for what he did in the 60's, and his lack of remorse for the possibility that innocents could have been hurt. When I read about his responses to these things, I find him testy and unpleasant.

But that's not what I was saying. I was talking about the smear that Ayers now holds fringe/terrorist views, and that Obama endorses them. Both of those claims are demonstrably false.

BTW: "Distinguished" is part of his job title. It means that UIC has recognized his prestige within his field by promoting him. It's the kind of title that usually goes to the one or two members of an academic department's faculty that are most prominent in their field.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I can't believe that you still try to evade admitting that you were wrong.

Contrary to you, I'm at least quoting a well-respected news site from a broadcasting company instead of weblogs or other unfunded sources, if any at all. I gave you the option to find further sources through Google to verify this yourself, too, should I add another dozen links that tell the same story? But wait, why don't you do your homework yourself?

Where's that Kenyan birth certificate, BTW? Or evidence for some of the other myths that you brought up, and which I debunked?

A statement by the Department of Health's director for verification is good enough for a layman like me unless somebody successfully disproves this in court. I don't see how the political position of the Department of Health's director matters. Yeah, "unfortunately", he is a Democrat. There's a 50/50 chance for that, perhaps a little more so if he's from Hawai'i. So what? As you already said, the prosecution is a Democrat, too.

Apparently some rumor on the web is good enough for you to challenge legal validity, though.

ad A.: like McCain, too. Remember that Obama wasn't the only one with allegations of unsure citizenship. Not that I'd think there would be reason to doubt that.
ad B.: the one that squashed the case was the judge. Regardless if there was a hearing or not, what the judge decides is what's "right". I'm not a lawyer, but I'd suppose that if a judge dismisses a case then that doesn't have to do with the defendant evading a trial, but, and let me quote you here again:
... but, continuing my sentence from above, to avoid a nonsensical lawsuit with no sign of success that does little more but waste the time of the defendant, the judge, the jury, and the taxpayer's money over a lunatic's pipe dream.

As I already said, Berg brought the case before the US Supreme Court now. Let's see what they say about it.

I don't see how this matters. Desperation? And I'm really getting tired when I have to repeat myself for people that are too slow or too stubborn to admit that their arguments are groundless and that they have to take them back. I already gave you the choice between humble pie or crow to eat.

Somebody else fight the tin-foil hat people from here on, please. Unless chrispedersen admits that he's at a fault and/or apologizes, I don't care anymore.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I'm probably being niave here, but theres a bit censored on the birth certificate that is shown online. Now this is just a stab in the dark but is it censored for a reason could it be used to damage Obama in some way? If so then you have a perfectly legitemate reason not to make a hard copy of said birth certificate to a publinc domain (court) unless required to do so.

But personally I don't think you'd take that as proof, perhaps the judge will be left wing as well. BTW My point is however high up this goes somebody (not neccessaraly you) can still argue it as invalid. Theres just some people out there who pay no attention to what others say. Again I'm not referring to you Chris, in fact you have been quite good. But you have been unclear about what it was you wanted, I vaguely remember you saying that ALL Obama needed to do was show a birth certificate, then gradually elevated that to it has to be in court and a hard copy.

Oh and I think you did question his citizenship, in fact a few pages ago... if you want me to dig it up I can, but right now I'm out of time.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Obama is the 44th President of the USA. Being only a marginally involved European, I'll have just one word for this.


WOOOOPWOPWOPWOPWOPWOOOOPWOPWOPWOPWOPWOPWOOOOP :D

No, really, I see very good things on horizon for USA now. ;) Maybe I'm mistaken. Time will tell.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

In some ways this is huge. For example, if it means that minorities continue an active engagement in American politics at the national level and maintain a real voice there, I think it can only be a good thing.

But I'm concerned that people have Obama built up so much in their minds that if he hasn't solved the credit crisis, put humanity on the path to enlightenment, and established universal peace in his first hundred days all of this excitement's going to turn against him. The man is an extremely smart and talented centrist politician, not Jesus.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I think people know he's not the world's saviour, Tichy. But surely it will be a change and if he does even the half of what he promised, they will be all steps in the right direction.

Personally, I'm a little sad though. After 8 years, I can't say "I'm more intelligent than the President of the United States of America!!!" no more... :(

:D Sorry, stupid joke. I have even more stupid ones though ^^

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I'm sorry if it was completely outrageous of me to draw a direct correlation between growth of debt, and a degrees of fiscal responsibility. Especially since you don't seem to care about the other economic indicators presented, either. But apparently my method of providing facts, offends yours right to just believe what you want to believe....?


Okay, at this point I should know better, but I will bite. The assertion that the rise of the internet just suddenly made more money appear, borders on the absurd. Yes, some people made a lot of money. In fact, if you look at our government's published figures, the budget surpluses had more to do with a slowdown in proportionate spending increases, rather than a disproportionate increase in revenues.


Trickle down theory? Make the rich richer to benefit everyone?
Iran Contra? Have the CIA sell cocaine on American soil, to fund militant extremists?
The worst income/expenditure ratio of any President?

Reagan was a tool. The worst kind, really.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I just wonder what all the political satirists and late night comedians are going to do for the next few months, Tifone.

Oh, wait. Oh, crap. Two and a half months of "lame duck" jokes coming right up. Sigh. Wake me in January.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Hey, Bush has 77 days left to do his worst :D Maybe he can declare some random war, or take some civil right away from you guys... (Damn, hope he's not reading or he may take those as suggestions :hurt:)

On a just marginally related topic, damn, that prop8 has passed, I couldn't believe it :eek:

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Obama is President. Let me repeat: Barack Obama *is* President of these United States. Ok, that's a fact.

We've just suffered through 8 horrendous years of bad, stupid, and unconscionable leadership under a man-child not competent to run a 7-11 well. That, and all the disasters and embarassments occurred, in part, because many citizens of these United States chose to focus on things which had nothing whatsoever to do with the President's actual leadership ability.

The question of whether or not Barack Obama is a citizen of the U.S. was answered by his opponent, who was also of dubious citizenship. They cancelled each other out. We can now all feel free to let this one go. It really does *not* matter, and I'm sorry for you if you honestly think it does.

Mccain lost, Obama won. By an enormous landslide. If you want someone to blame for that, blame George W Bush--he's the primary reason Mccain did so poorly against the first black man ever to be elected President in this country. George W Bush forever denied the infallability of rich, white, Christian, European-Americans. If there are any racists out there, George W is basically your very own Benedict Arnold. He lost it for you, and the world has forever changed.

So now that we're past all that, can we please focus on important issues, like the energy crisis, the environment, the economy, stem-cell research, world-relations, education, National health-care, and poverty in this and other countries? Seriously, if you can't focus on these, or something of similar importance, then again I feel sorry for you, and please get out of the way of our conversation and our country, because you're just being a nuisance and a distraction.

I'm not singling any one person out, or pointing any fingers, because this is maybe a message that we all need to hear:

There's a lot of important work to be done, and if you can't manage to force yourself to be a part of the solution, then please don't make the problem bigger with your irrelevancies.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Running the risk of mentioning something irrelevant...


But, in no way does McCains 'dubious' status (and I use ''s because McCain's birth conditions are not dubious in the least) impact Obamas.

Two wrongs don't make a right afterall.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you think the laws of the United States of America should only matter when you feel like they should, I guess you may have more in common with Bush than you probably imagined.

All that said, I don't dispute that Obama is a natural American citizen, but I think its a prefectly fair question to put towards ANYONE who is running for president, and a trivial one to be answered CLEARLY, which is why some people no doubt find it odd that Obama never did answer the question beyond all shadow of doubt.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I'm pretty sure it's beyond all shadow of a doubt. If there's really anything to this at all, then I'll be amazed and shocked.

It's just a meaningless gripe, is the problem. Can anyone honestly suppose that if Obama really wasn't a citizen of the U.S., that it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a certainty? Every journalist in America would *love* the exclusive rights to that story. They'd kill for it. It's nothing more than a silly conspiracy theory--exactly the kind that we love in this country. The fact that Mccain's citizenship was also questioned just makes it even less valid, and much more petty.

Yes, I do think that the President of the U.S. should be a citizen of the United States. I absolutely do, so that answers that question. I just don't for one minute believe that Barack Obama *isn't* one.
I don't even waste my time wondering. I-infact-rely on the legal system of this country to present to me such questions, and to deal with them in a timely, efficient fashion.

Do you have any real, actual, physical proof that he's not? If so, please forward it to the Washington Post or the NY Times. I'm sure I'll hear about it eventually. Why you waited a whole entire year to present your incontrovertible evidence is beyond me.

In the meantime, there are real, serious problems that need to be solved.

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By the way, Barack Obama was, as far as I know, born in Hawaii, which is an actual state. Mccain was born in Panama, which is not a part of the United States. The fact-again, as far as I know-that he was born in a sovereign state of the U.S., is-honestly-good enough for me. If you can prove that he was born somewhere else, then please keep me posted. Being born on U.S. soil does it for me--which is why I consider Mccain to be a valid Presidential candidate (and I personally consider him to be a fine human being, and a great American, just so you know where I stand. My mom likes him too.), and Arnold Schwartzenegger not to be.

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Does anyone really believe that he could not have gotten this far without the CIA or someone checking his background?

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Well, people believe in a lot of things. Often very strongly. That doesn't make them so...

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I never challenged Obamas birth status, only pointed out that your logic about McCain having a dubious birth status has nothing to do with anyone elses status.

I find it odd that Obama didn't squash this story more completely, and instead released documents which were questionable (again I'm not questioning them, just observing that they are being questioned). It should be a completely trivial exercise (as it was for McCain, both parents US citizens, born at a military base, ...), yet apparently it is not.

Why? Who knows, but the fringers in the US will take any story and try to give it wheels, hell listen to Alex Jones sometime if you want an appreciation into just how insane some people actually are.

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HoneyBadger -- the sticking point is that to be president one must be a natural citizen (born here) and not naturalized. Schwarzeneggar was born in Austria and became a citizen later in life, so he cannot be president, though he can be a governor, senator, etc. That's what that whole lawsuit was about. The claims vary between he wasn't born in Hawai'i, or that he was born in Hawai'i pre-statehood.

Both claims are hooey, and so now the combatants are reduced to complaining that they dismissed the original bogus suit on grounds that the complainant lacked the standing to bring it, instead of going to trial and demonstrating its bogosity.

I think this debate has entered the hallowed ranks of ridiculousness previously reserved for howling about Monkey PD.

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You don't have to tell me, Tichy, I just wanted to squash this particular conspiracy theory once and for all, and I think that's been accomplished.

As far as not going to court if you don't have to--well, who wants to do that? Who here enjoys the thought of jury duty? I also understand there are court fees involved, not to mention lawyer fees.

And the statement "You're not even qualified to bring your argument to my attention." holds as much weight for me as "Your argument is fallacious and silly and wrong." What's the difference?

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You really are much more like Bush than you probably realize.

Just saying...

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I've tried to stay out of this, but really. Comparing someone to Bush? That sounds a lot like ad hominem to me (plus, HB might like Bush and consider that a compliment, though it was fairly clearly, to me, meant as an insult).

Just saying... :)

Edit: Also, why compare HB to Bush? The current flow of the thread had very little, if anything, to do with bush. HB wasn't saying (s)he (I forget which gender HB is, unfortunately; sigh, and sorry HB) isn't like Bush, you just threw the comment out there. At least, that's how it seems to me.

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Has Godwin's Law kicked in yet?

If not that's amazing. Good job Dom3 comm.

Godwin's Law

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Wow Jim.

I dont really know how to respond to that, other than to say millions and millions of americans lined the highways of america to pay their last respect - and two polls by historians have ranked him in the top 10 of american presidents. And he is widely regarded as the icon of the american conservative movement.

A long period of prosperity at home, the most successful arms reductions we ever had with the soviets, a major role in freeing eastern europe from the USSR - dramatic reductions in unemployment, and inflation. Event he iconic are you better off now than you were 4 years ago... and so many other staples of modern political activism.. my memory tells me springs from the Reagan era.

Thousands of americans from across the political divide thought he was a great president - including those that were his political opponents such as Tip O'Neil, Walter Mondale

His allies loved him, including european leaders (thatcher for example) and his enemies respected him.

You can have the last word on Reagan....

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I DID look at the article, and if it is on Slate then it is an opinion piece of one kind or another. This one attempted to be more factual than most, however with a grand total of three democratic terms in the last ten presidential terms, it can hardly come up with enough evidence to make a case for Democratic stewardship of the economy (especially since President Carter's time in office was hardly known for sound economic policy or good growth).

That is true... however initially deficits went up (I think it was for the first two fiscal years... then he got a Republican Congress, and it stopped being a solely Democratic government and became a bipartisan one). Just because he finished his term up doesn't mean he didn't increase the deficit during his time in office, and if one is arguing for his presidency as a whole then since the national debt increased, by the measure you are using he failed there as well.

I am not saying that is his fault... this is a structural part of the US now and became systematic long before he came into office, and deficits aren't really a good yardstick for measuring economic success or sound fiscal policy. Also keep in mind that a large part of his "balanced budget" came from slashing defense spending due to the United States being not only at peace but completely unchallenged. Said defense spending had to be dramatically increased during the Bush years to compensate for a decreased military capability trying to sustain the vast array of strategic committments in a world still unstable from the loss of the international power system after the fall of the Soviet Union and the attempted(ing) rise of successor states. A lot of it also came from a series of economic bubbles that burst right about the time he handed things over. Economic cycles mean that we tend to see the results of the last presidency in the term of the next one. Ironic, eh?

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My party in this non-election will refrain from mudslinging, and stick to the issues, so while my inestimable non-opponent is busy sputtering, grasping at straws, and citing unfounded comparisons, name-calling, and baseless arguments, I'd rather stick to the non-topic, which, while it is itself completely silly, has yet to be backed up with any sort of topicality, reasonability, or reality.

So, in the words of our fourtieth President, Ronald Reagan: "Wake me up when something happens".

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Please feel free to refresh your memory of the thread. This particular subthread evolved essentially as thus:

a). I fairly often referred to soetoro as soetoro. Ich accused me of trolling and asked me to quit.
b). I responded that I found it useful to inform people that Barry had changed his name. Did Ich know why he changed his name - both the reason given in his book and what I consider to be the likely actual reason.
c. The conversation devolved into why names matter, and why its relevent to the election. My post on said subject is on page 10.
I have copied it for you:

'Be reasonable. Do it my way.'

My next quote was on page 14:
The next quote pg 15:
Etc. Etc. No where will you find that I believe Obama isn't a citizen, or even that he isn't a natural born US citizen. In fact on page 18? I said I hope that he *is*.

Read my argument and you will consistently see that I believe a candidates actions count; that qualifications should be examined as part of the system; and that obama as a political move should have just released the documents.

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Sighs patiently. Thats just it honey. *There *is* *no* *legal* *verification* *of* a *candidates* *qualifications*.

This is what I have been saying for 8 pages now. I looked into this for 12 hours, and ended up calling the department of elections in florida who said that the democratic party was responsible for ensuring Obama met the legal requirements.

No one else. Not the federal government. Not the states. The democratic parties. Minor candidates have to affirm an oath or some such that they meet the requirements - but major party candidates do not.

Please.. prove me wrong.. I would love it if you could.

You have it backwards - the constitution requires that a candidate be a natural born citizen of a certain age. It isn't incumbent on me to prove he isn't. Its up to the candidate to prove *he is*.

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Ok, well, I'm glad that's straightened out. Now that he's President, it's good to know that he's a citizen of the United States. Thanks for clearing that up, Chrispedersen.