Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I agree.

I personally think this game has been a great success, and certainly the most competitive all-round I've ever played in. I split the credit for this between the game rules and WingedDog's great efforts to find subs. As without the latter we would have lost quite a few nations already by now.

But 37/38 turns without the AI appearing smashes my previous record on that front to pieces. This is even more impressive when you compare this to a game like Legends of Faerun, where about 1/4 of the players had been lost by turn 25. Although that's an unfair comparison, as you have to factor in the Baalz's +17 curse aura when talking about the drop-outs in Legends.


It will be very hard to get a game where all the players are evenly matched skill wise, as even amongst vets and noobs the skill levels vary quite a bit I think. And nation pick will be critical in this factor as well. The only way I can see it happening is in blitz games of 4-5 players, but they are less fun to play IMO. But apart from the recent Man incident, I don't think any war in this game has been won cheaply so far (indeed, most of the 'wins' haven't even been 'won' yet).

I personally think that any game, regardless of map or players, can be resonably balanced and hard fought as long as each player fights until the bitter end. And the end as in the 'proper' end, not just the point where a player decides they can no longer 'win' the game or war, so start flicking the 'Bail-Out' switch. As mentioned above by Agema, something like barricading yourself in your capital and summoning anything and everything to keep the walls up can have a dramatic effect on the game, and can sometimes add 10+ turns to a conquerors invasion timetable.


One of the most unbalancing things for games IMO is when a player takes a hopeless 'I'm going to lose, so may as well throw everything at them to try and break the siege' approach. Since that is effectively what the AI does nine times out of ten, and one of the main reasons AI's appearing unbalances games so much. The result of this action is mostly always that the sieging army captures the fort many turns quicker than is should have done, and probably for far less casualties as well.

But I think many players just see this convenient kamikaze option as the quickest way out of a game they are losing, since they can easily justify going AI if they've just had all their troops killed. Which is a decision they themselves, not their opponent, decided to take. Empty forts are pretty easy to capture by all acounts, and I don't recall the soldiers at Rorke's Drift (as one of many examples) charging out to meet their enemies when they appeared at the gates.

Going down in a 'Blaze of Glory' may appear to be a fun way to die, but it is never a good thing for game balance IMO. And it's pretty illogical to me that when your enemy asks "Please can you come out of your fort so we can kill you all?" you respond "Ok, I'll be right there".

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I'd really like to prove you wrong, but can't. I'd have to go AI to write more :P

Anyway, Man didn't lose anything, looking on graphs. Just some provs to raiders, no armies lost, pretender still alive, gem income really bug, research going well... Anyway, just stating my opinion.

RAND is a really interesting game. Much much more interesting map [even with unbalanced positions], big tension, really interesting development.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

That may be true, but the graphs show Man were still researching when Drager went AI, so there must have been access to both mages and labs. And mages and labs mean you can summon stuff, forge stuff, and maybe good stuff as well considering Man are riding high on the research graph. And as Agema pointed out, with Mother Oak and Gift Health up, Man could easily have pumped a load of Nature gems into stuffing their two forts full of summoned creatures. Serpents, Dryads, Lions, Animals Hordes etc. All would have slowed their foe(s) down a bit, if not a lot. Every little helps as they say.

I'd love to give Drager the benefit of the doubt, but at first sight it looks like an early bail to me. Also consider that Caelum were certainly in a worse positon by all accounts when the Caelum player bailed, but WingedDog worked his magic to find a sub for them. That was several turns ago now, and Caelum are still with us. And at this stage I'd put money on Caelum outlasting Man as well. No position is ever hopeless enough to give it to the AI IMO. As even scripting one mage to cast one useful spell means doing more than the AI ever would.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I look forward to hearing your views :) Although definitely once the game is over (Two AI's are two too many), or one of us has been eliminated.

Spot on.

Yes Pasha's RAND is getting interesting. One or two nations didn't seem to get out of the blocks properly though, so maybe not a good example of an evenly balanced game. And quite a bit of difference in nation strength as well IMO, so again maybe not the best of examples if talking about balance (although guessing you're not given your 'unbalanced positions' quote)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Heheh, I'm really enjoying this game, but I have several occasions where game events really, really called for some good trash talking/bragging/threatening/complaining/begging (being ambiguous to avoid being booted ;)). Ah well, guess you can't have it all at the same time. :)

But don't worry Zeldor, I'm coming for you next so you can talk all you want soon enough. Or maybe I'm already invading you, so hard to tell...

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Nation/player list updated.
Turn 38 and only 3 nations dead, if I weren't in this game I'd say nobody is fighting however that couldn't be further from the truth.

One more thing, If you decide your situation is hopeless don't turn AI, at least inform the admin about it so a sub could be found.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Man should be able to fight back. They could retake provinces with armies to keep their castles and a few other provinces active for upkeep and recruitment. They may be limited for anti-thug thugging. They may be able to kit out mothers as just about adequate stealthy thugs against weak-moderate PD. They should have a ton of N3-capable mages and - with good research - access to Charm pretty quickly: pin the thugs down with troops or summoned chaff like swarm, and they'd fail an MR check eventually.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Calahan:

Hmm... dunno, true maybe for Agartha. Hard to say about Caelum, we have to wait till they are dead to know more. Some nations that theoretically had small chances of survival [Ulm, Marverni], are in not so bad shape. Some nations have unfair advantage for sure. Sauro and Vanheim mostly, both getting just 2 neighbours, while Marverni getting 3, Ulm 4, Ermor 4...

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Ermor had 1 neighbor.
My birds see everything.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Yes, hard to know exactly what is going on, or went on in Pasha's RAND, as each nation is sure to have it's own tale to tell. With each one being quite interesting to hear as well I'd imagine. Enjoying playing in the game, but also looking forward to it ending in some senses (although that's ages away) just to hear the players thoughts :)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Executor:

In RAND, not here :)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

:) errr, I knew that... :):):)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Anyway, my issue is that many players seem to be ignorant, blind or trying to play a different game that others. When big player gets bigger, it is obvious that he will be unstoppable soon. If it's no diplo-game and there are some nations with thugs [better if they are teleportable], you may be sure that you are on the hit list. So attacking him now, when he is busy with someone else, is the only viable strategy. That's why there are vet only or invite-only games. So you can be [almost] sure that people will play to win or at least to try and achieve smth. Not just do some lame decisions and ignore the game.

And I think that game is going in that direction. And few others too. And I know perfectly well that winning without people trying to stop me is not fun at all. And is not worth much. So if it's true for that game, I will just switch to AI and look for more interesting game, probably some of QMs invite games.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Zeldor, maybe I'm misreading your post, but it just really rubbed me the wrong way. Did you just say that the other players in this game are not playing their nations how you want them to so you're taking your ball and going home? The whole fricking point of a no diplomacy anonymous game is to limit the dogpile on whoever is currently leading, it seems petulant to complain that is how it plays and asinine to throw the whole game in a lurch because of your pouting. If I misunderstood what you meant then I apologize, but if not...I'll just say I think you're behaving very poorly.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I don't think you got it really right :) I just said that everyone should play to either try to win or to not make it too easy for someone else. A bit like what you are looking for with good player's pledge :)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Ok, let me phrase this a different way then, I've just had 3 games in rapid succession get seriously compromised by people abandoning/going AI so please don't do that.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Ok, I will stick with it :) I think I need to get some action going then.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

WingedDog will be unavailable from 5-10 August.
I will be stepping in to help with the admin duties, please direct any delays and sub request from that period to me.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Yes, thanks, Executor. I was about to post about it.

As for the other games I'm in - I think I would be able to handle them, it's not the first time I have a business trip while playing dominions. This time things are more complicated though - the distance I need to travel is 1700 kilometers and I'll go by car. I'll take a notebook and I can access internet via mobile, so I would be able to send my turns, but unable to appear online often enough to handle delay requests.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

From now on Execuor is in charge and should be contacted for delay requests.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Game delayed by 24 hours as requested.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Ok. I will turn my nation AI. I have better things to do and I will let noobs play with noobs. I will switch to invite only games mostly, at least people try there. Congrats to Eriu on winning that game. Not that simply getting into game where everyone is not willing to fight at all was a big challenge :P

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Yeah, fight you bunch of slackers!
So, who were you again Zeldor? And who was Shinuyama? It's hard being the admin and not knowing the players...

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I subbed into this game for Shinuyama so that that nation would fight to the bitter end. I gave it all I had, but the armies of my oppressors were too great, although I got myself many escorts in my journey to the land of the dead. In the end, my cyclops pretender could not be brought down, but died while retreating. If only it had been possible to limp back to the mages and start wreaking havoc... ahh well, good fight!

Zeldor... joining a RAND/no diplomacy game, then crying when people don't gangbang the #1 guy, then naming him publicly, calling everyone else noobs, and turning AI when people are making serious efforts to make sure that no one goes AI? You'd better hope that no one running your 'invite only' games sees this thread. Stay classy.

As it seems to be my role to sub to keep a nation in this game from going AI and giving someone an easy cap, I can take over whatever nation Zeldor is attempting to vacate, if it's still possible. I don't promise to light the sky up, but I can keep it from being a complete pushover.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Nah, my nation was not a complete pushover. I asked for a sub like 30 turns ago and there were not good volunteers. Only one possible recently, who'd not cope with problems.

And yeah, I can tell what I think. People know that I can fight till the end [like only my cap left in Faerun] and I'm just stating facts, not crying. I'm simply not going to participate in that. And those who create invite-only games make them because they don't want to see things that happen here.

P.S. It's not about banging on number 1 guy, it's about common sense :) I love RAND as people there know the game, can read score graphs, can use scotus and make decisions based on that. Decisions that will be good for them.

You will know my nation after that turn, I don't need to make it easier for anyone by saying which nation is going AI :)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Since Abysia imho is the strongest nation in the game while Zeldor continue to rail against Eriu I will presume that he is playing Abysia himself.

In that case I must ask him why he doesn't use all the archdevils + heliographus + artifacts etc that he has to attack Eriu himself.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

There's something wrong with folks playing here. I've never seen a slower game. Turn 47 and only 3 out of 16 nations are killed?

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Zeldor, I find so many things wrong about your post, and indeed slightly offensive, that I don't even know where to begin.

Firstly, thanks for breaking the Rules of a RAND game by basically declaring your nation and hinting at the gangbanging of another nation. Many players are enjoying this game, even if you are not, so I for one would appreciate it if your didn't attempt to diminish and de-rail the game for everyone else.


Secondly, how can you accuse players of not trying? I know I am trying, trying hard. And my scouts are reporting back to me that all the other players seem to be trying hard as well. Or is your comment in reference to players 'not trying' to prevent someone winning. In your supposed case, Eriu. And everyone seems to be fighting as well, just not fighting the nation you want them to, or you think they should be. Given all the wars that have gone on, your claim that players are not willing to fight is almost as absurd as saying they are not trying. Or is the complaint about players not fighting the nation you perceive to be the biggest threat (because of course only your opinion of which nation is the biggest threat is the correct one)

But what do you want players to do exactly. Give up on, and risk possibly losing their own current war just to attack someone else? While simultaneously managing to transmit a subliminal message to their current opponent saying 'Can we stop our war now please so that I can attack someone else'. And what about nations who don't border the correct nation, what do you want them to do? Do you want them to make a bee-line for them, and hope the nations whose territory they would have to take to get to them just 'happen to understand' that they were only being attacked because their provinces were in they way of the nation they were really attacking? Maybe several nations are going to launch new attacks in the coming turns. Who knows. Well obviously you with your precognitive abilities, since you are claiming everyone is just going to stand around idly and let one nation win without a fight.

I do actually agree with you on many of the opinions you've voiced regarding how a lot of players don't always know how to play larger scale games properly. As more often than not players do nothing to stop one or two nations becoming incredibly powerful, but you of all people should know a RAND game is different, and ganging on leading nations is a hell of a lot tougher than in games with diplomacy. It does require more skill and experience in 'reading' the game, but this actually brings me nicely onto my third point.............


Thirdly, since when have Eriu clearly been the top nation to congratulate them on winning? Unless I've been playing the wrong game for 47 turns, it appears to me there are at least two or three other nations doing just as well, if not better than Eriu. And another two or three nations closely following behind them. I'd actually put Eriu's (apparent) opponent up just as high as Eriu. Given that they have the Well of Misery, a huge level of research, and easy access to multiple high level death mages. And if the C'tis player can't do something with all that lot to make Eriu's life a living hell, then they need shooting. Although if they can't, then I would agree with your assessment of at least one player in the game being a complete noob. ie. The C'tis player.


For me, there are no signs at all of a clear leader yet in this game, which I'm hoping is largely because the AI's have to the greater part been kept out of this game, meaning that taking a nation's scalp is being made as difficult as it is supposed to be. (O/T. This would also give evidence to my belief that players turning AI completely ruins games, and keeping AI's out leads to far more enjoyable, and more competitive games all round).

So as far as I can tell Zeldor, you are complaining that Eriu are doing what Eriu do best. Raiding. Which for me is the equivalent of complaining about Mictlan recruiting Jag warriors. That's what Mictlan does best. What should we complain about next? Abysia blood hunting. Or maybe Ermor reanimating? I know, Marignon are not allowed to summon any angels, because if they do I will complain like hell and declare them the winner.

Eriu have gained the upper hand in both their previous wars against Man and Caelum by mass raiding, which is pretty obvious both from the graphs, and from having some knowledge of Eriu as a nation. And this will always be a feature of any war with Eriu. Will this lead them to victory over C'tis? Only further turns will tell us that. But it appears to me that C'tis started the war against Eriu, so it's up to them to handle the consequences of their actions as well.


Also, if your misgivings about how the course this game has run, or is running, possibly because nobody has yet come to the aid of C'tis against Eriu, then have you considered players don't actually want C'tis around? They are a far more dangerous nation in the long run than Eriu IMO, and living next door to the Miasma isn't always a fun experience. So calling everyone a noob just because they are, by appearance, not helping C'tis is way out of line. Maybe some are actually cheering for Eriu, as they'd much rather fight them in the late game than C'tis. Also consider that the Eriu - C'tis war is only a few turns old. So to expect a third nation to enter that war at the drop of a hat, in a RAND game, is probably asking a bit much.

So before you make any blanket statements again Zeldor, please pause for a moment to think that maybe, just maybe, just this one time, you don't know everything that's going on in a game of Dominions.


And can I ask you to please have some consideration for the players who are enjoying the game before saying things, like revealing who's playing which nation. Or doing things, like turning yourself AI, that will only serve to spoil the game for everyone. If you wish to leave the game then I fully entrust WingedDog and Executor to find a sub for you. Maybe the sub won't be as good as you, given your vast experience and knowledge of the game, but they will certainly be better than the AI, and maybe also keener to play in such an enjoyable game than you currently seem to be.

All players deserve enough respect so that no individual players actions should be the cause of ruining their games. Be they a noob or a vet. A star player or a complete incompetent. The members on these forums are nowhere near equal as players (in ability), but they should all be treated equal as people.


ps. Zeldor, I also wouldn't say Pasha's RAND game is so well balanced, and 'being played better by all' either. As there seems to be a few nations there who are pulling well away from the others. And as yet I don't see any 'in-built vet instinct' kicking in that's stopping it from happening. Some nations also appear to have hardly been involved in any fighting all game. So are they not trying, or not fighting as well? Are you voicing similar complaints in their direction? Or are you one of the nations happily turtling away, so there you are happy that nothing is being done about it.

And to me Pasha's RAND game also has a lot more clear leaders in it than this game does. So there it's a lot easier, and more obvious, which nations should be brought down a peg or two. Not that any of that has happened yet, since other nations are wrapped up in, or recovering from their own wars. Exactly like what is happening in this game.

I am enjoying that game like I am enjoying this one, but I see nothing 'superior' about it, and see no big difference between them in terms of how they are currently being played.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I put that down to purely the fact that only two nations (Man+Pan) have so far gone AI in this game. When the AI takes over, you can put good money on the fact that they'll break any sieges taking places, lose all thier troops as a result, leaving their enemies with a simple walkover.

But if a human player bunkers down it their forts, it can easily take 10-20+ turns to finish them off. Sometimes it's not even worth trying to storm the forts, as it's easier to dom-kill them than risk heavy loses. Only 3 nations have been knocked out, but there are another two or three that are on the verge.

And I'd actually say that there is 'something wrong' with the games that have lots of casualties before mid-game, and that it is actually this game that is the normal one. Problem is that the vast majority of games have lots of early casualties due to the common, and toxic mix of AI-turning and high newbiecide rate. So it just 'appears' that things are not normal in this game because there are so many nations in it fighting to the last.

This should be credited to all the players who have stuck it out (and shame to the ones who bailed) and all the subs who have come in to put up the last ditch fights. The latter deserve huge thanks and credit in my books. (and of course thanks again to WingedDog for doing the work to find them)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Not necessarily correct, the absence of AI's does provides a much more enjoyable and harder conquest but that still doesn't change my mind about this being a slower game. Normally I'm used to seeing a few nation killed in the first 20-30 turns due to rushes, with or without AI's, hell I always try to rush someone as soon as I can, didn't seem to work here doe.:)

I still feel that 3 nations dead is a slow kill rate, especially since there are some great players here.
And take a look at Yarg, turn 20, two players dead, and there are some on the verge as well, and I think they're all fighting it out.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

True, but YARG had bullseye marked capitals, which helps no end in directing rush nations to their nearest target.

Edit: YARG also had a lot more early stalers as well, which has also helped identify 'weak' targets to attack.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Yeah, I suppose it does help.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

A sub has been found to take over Zeldors nation for the moment to keep the nations from stalieng, however this is only a temporary situation until I menage to find a full time sub to take over.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Wow, that was a fast sub hunt!
It appears we've found a permanent sub to step in instead of Zeldor.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Great! Hopefully people will continue to let you know if they fail a morale check for this game, instead of just clicking AI. Although I also hope that people will just stick it out and try their hardest, too.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Zeldor, it's also in stellar bad taste to denigrate the effort of not only the Eriu player but also every person he's fought. No "wow, impressive performance", instead it's "Lolz, he's only winning by the good luck of having terrible opponents. You guys are all lame, everyone but me is a loser who doesn't know how to play so I'm quitting.". You've at best got a very spotty idea of any maneuvers and counters tried in wars you're not involved in, and there are some pretty good players in this game - it's astoundingly arrogant to claim nobody is even trying. Your behavior in this game has been atrocious enough to earn you a spot on my very short ban list. Not that I expect this to be a terribly devastating announcement, I'm just letting you know now not to try and join any games I'm hosting. You're right that the reason people make invite only games is because they don't want to see stuff that happened in this game - namely your behavior.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I thought the whole point of the "No Diplo" part of RAND games was so players DID have a chance to fight a whole bunch of 1 vs 1 wars and to avoid dogpiling. And as it stands, the graphs show that there are a bunch of players more or less equal, and no clear leader. That's all everyone is able to tell from public intel anyway.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Wow, quite the controversy. Some perspective from a noob:

• Congratulating Eriu for winning is like congratulating the tallest third grader in a school on making the NBA. Better chance, yes. Guaranteed? Naaaa.
• I'm having fun, a lot of it! Thanks to everyone I have fought, or stared at suspiciously over our borders.
• Thanks to all the previous, current, and future subs for keeping the game interesting (and especially the admins for finding them!)

Also, a quick message to my neighbour: prepare to die. You know who you are.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

As an outsider, I'd just like to thank Calahan for pointing out to me the major difference between fighting to the very end and going AI, namely the AI's habit of suiciding out of all its forts. I have been watching my brother's performance in Cripple Fight, and though Arco has been essentially irrelavant since around turn 35, tgbob stuck through it and managed to survive and tie up his resources till turn 60! That has probably made a huge difference by preventing him from eliminating any other nations. This really throws into perspective for me the importance of fighting to the last. Thanks to Calahan and tgbob for teaching me this.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

My thanks should go to you then Trumanator for observing, listening and learning, just what a huge difference not going AI really does make. I wish more players could be enlightened :angel

And the best way you can thank me (and tgbob) in return is by adopting a stead-fast "never turn-AI policy". As anyone who plays with that great attitude is more than welcome to play in any future games that I organise :)

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Baalz:

Yeah, you are probably right. Instead of talking too much here I should have just turned AI 10 turns ago, without saying anything.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Well, I dare say merely disrespecting your fellow players by quitting in a tantrum is a marginal improvement over disrespecting your fellow players by spoiling the RAND rules and insulting them all as well.

When you don't know what problems other people are struggling with or what they are preparing to do, you've got no right deciding they are making bad strategic choices.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I have just returned from my trip, it took some time to read through the thread. Zeldor's behaviour is unexeptable, and I hope nobody else playing this game is going to copy it. I'm repeting myself, but the best thing you can do if the interest for the game is lost - is to inform admin about it. Breaking the rules of the game you signed for, or throwing iunsubstantiated insults at other players neither adds you a credit as a good player nor increaces community reputation. IMO Executor had solved the situation the best way it could be solved.

Executor
I have another trip 14-23 August, would you be able to administrate the game again? From what I heard you did great job so far.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Yeah, I'm here.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Can I ask who the original Caelum and Shinuyama players were? Since both have now been eliminated.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I was Caelum. I think the score graphs show pretty well what happened to me :hurt:. Congrats to Eriu on a perfectly timed attack.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I was Shinuyama for the last 8 turns or so (once they had been reduced to 6 or 7 provinces).

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

Shinuyama was ruled originly by Cerlin, until turn 37.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

thanks WingedDog. Confused me for a moment as I couldn't see any 'Cerlin' signed up for this game. But then I traced your 'Hot Swap' post for the answers.

Re: New game - The Art of War, Fight!
 

I'm enjoying this game, mostly. Looking at the graphs alone, without any information from what my scouts know...

I don't see Eriu as a clear leader. It's inconceivable that Abysia and Marignon don't have major firepower with their research and plentiful teritory. Below that, Mictlan and Atlantis still seem pretty handy. C'tis, Vanheim, Ermor, Agartha, Oceania are all in various stages of relative weakness or trouble but capable of still being a significant factor, and then there's Machaka and Man almost dead. Your money would be on one of the big three, but depending on how a large war or three went, one of the weaker nations could come into play as well.