Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Vets, get it together with your team, I need you guys to decide on your 6 player starting team ASAP. I would think you'd want Dr. P, Baalz, Lingchih, and/or whoever is most experienced.

Everyone, I want your feedback on the map candidates, no response and I'll assume that what I choose will be approriate. Here's the map post again:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...&postcount=187

With regard to nation selection, namad, your example is correct in theory, though it is possible, though unlikely, that all of your 10 choices could be identical to the noob's top picks in the exact same order, in which case you'd want a few more just to be on the safe side. Thus I would submit a list of all available nations (minus the 3 water nations, Ashdod, and whatever is picked by Unoptimized (if something is picked) just to be on the safe side. If you want to submit a smaller list that is fine but just be aware there is a chance you may need more.

Hoplosternum, your in as a noob alternate for now, chrispederson is in as a vet alternate for now.

Edit my above post. Going over the possibilities, it does look like your correct namad. Your team's 10 choices should be sufficent even if the upper portions of both lists are duplicates.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I am in agreement and have already stated that this is what I want more than once. so please, continue with the game preparations, I have no opposition to this.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I'm sorry I was being so petty I had a long weekend and I knew that today I'd want to delete my post... In fact I just tried to edit it to delete it but you can only edit posts 1hour after you make them

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

if we use zeldor's map will everything be on? all the crazy indies? this might be bad for noobs.... additionally i do not see how this map could ever support any number of players other than 12or24 and 18 is not either of those numbers?

honestly games this big are a bit wonky I'm not sure there is really any ideal map? But I encourage players to post some opinions at least

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

If any map is used that has specials on it I think it would be best to remove them. There's no sense in making this game unduly complicated.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Also, if you don't hear from unoptomized today I suggest bringing in an alternate (other games are having issues contacting him as well). Since I think stretch was disinclined to play a whole game, I guess that brings hoplosternum in. I'll send him a pm.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Regarding the maps, would all the various tunnels and caves and such be there? Number two looks interesting, but I'm not sure how all those cave provinces might affect things.

Do we want maps with lots of water (if so, please give me Shinuyama and place me on the coast! ;) )?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

OK I have registered :) Can't see anything but the archives so far....

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I will play Ashdod, and will herald the end of this dark vet dominated age! :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Unoptimized - Unfortuantely you will have to pick a different nation, as Namad has already taken Ashdod. I suggest you stop by the noob forum and look at recent discussion into nation selection before announcing your pick.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I'm loling at Namad getting Ashdod. You noobs best pick a powerhouse nation! Like Man, Man has SUCH good ranged units.

(Don't actually pick Man.)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ah, the bigger they are, the harder they, er, well, crush your tiny skull... :(

Well, if the mighty Vets need the crutch of Ashdod to feel they have a chance (we noobs are also willing to throw in a big SUV, or maybe a large caliber hand gun, if they're still feeling the need to compensate for something), then I guess it would be wrong to not let them have it :D

Yep, let the smack talk officially begin! :P

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Yeah, the vets getting ashdod is a bit excessive. With team support like this, there's just not a whole lot ashdod can't do... it's going to be interesting to see if the noobs can handle them. I know in the last game hinnom pretty much held an entire front singlehandedly.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

if ashdod is really this unfair we could always just ban ashdod from the game entirely? although if hinnom wasn't banned it seems a bit odd to ban ashdod?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ashdod isn't that terrific as many use to think. It is a widespread opinion that was caused by someone winning several games with them with ease. But game result usually depends on player much more than on nation and there're a lot of very strong nations in middle age besides Ashdod.
Yes, Ashdod is very good but not uber. I clearly remember one very talkative and well-known person doing absolutely nothing with them and being smashed by Ulm who was fighting at several fronts in a couple of turns. So I have to once again say that result depends on player to much greater degree.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well, ashdod is banned from a lot of mp games. But having them in this game is not necessarily a bad idea. After all it gives the noobs some practice in attempting to deal with them in an environment where it's difficult to be crushed outright. It just means that figuring out how to fight ashdod will occupy much of the noobs strategic thinking this game. Much like fear of niefelheim in the last game drew much of the noob team's attention. Or the gorgon and VQ in the first one.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I think in a team game like this, what few weaknesses ashdod has can be easily patched up by its teammates. Which creates the situation where they really are unmentionably uber.

What game are you talking about btw? PM me the name, I'd like to read the game thread and see if it's informative at all. Ashdod actually only has one HoV win recorded right now, I was under the impression people decided they were so op when they started thinking about the differences between ma and ea, and realized ashdod has a lot less competition than hinnom does.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

You're right, perhaps, in a team game it is much stronger than in usual just because there're ways to cover its weaknesses.

Also, I'd like to know if ratio 12-6 is final and thus there's no sense to keep following the thread. If Hadrian wants to be an alternate then the game lacks one noob team member to have 14-7 (Hopolsternum wants to play, as far as I understand). I just don't like jumping into the train that already started moving so it is best decided now.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Yeah. What Two-bits Said... Umm.. Is that good smack talk, I am a noob. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I think septimius is inclined to play with as many players as can be convinced to play before the game starts. If there's enough for 14-7 right now, it's probably safe to assume that the game will start with 14 noobs and 7 vets.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Yes, I did want as many as possible but we are having issues bringing in the noobs, despite everything we've done and there's at least 1 noob we may need to drop. There seems to be a noob shortage of late, especially of the fresh green variety. We could wait it out and so who else joins, maybe even reach maximum but as the vets don't like large teams to begin with I think it best to see if we can start with just 12-6.

So vets it may be best if we drop ano (sorry ano) for now and Hadrian II will go to alternate. Do you want chrispederson in the starting lineup? if so, someone else must go alternate.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Probably, as I'm not inclined to do a hell of a lot of work on them. I can delete the specials if that's what people want.

TwoBits, likes number 2. Very good, keep those opionions coming in on the map. Tell me which one ya like. I'm inclined toward Planet Rorshach myself.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ok :)
I'd say it would be best if chris joined the noob team though.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

You think chris is not vet material?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I do. Perhaps, not a noob for this game as well but if he played for your team, personally I wouldn't mind.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ah, sorry about my absence, I've been looking for appartments in Cali. Grad school and such :). I can happily play another nation, and I will say hi on the noob boards soon.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

That might be stretching things.

If I don't here from Vellon soon, we shall be minus a noob. And Hoplosternum will be in.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Sorry, been a bit out of touch with this game again. I just posted in the Vet forum, giving command over to theDemon. I will play whatever nation I am assigned. Heh, I'm not even sure who all the vet players are. But, I'm sure we will get it together before the game starts.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

pending hearing back from drp, I think the vet team membership that's on the first post of this thread is what we're going with

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Perhaps it doesn't have to be an exact 2-1 ratio of noobs to vets if more vets want to play. But perhaps if the vets have a higher ratio than that, then noobs should get to pick all their races first (like Ashdod) :D

Just a thought.

Map two looked OK (not sure about the caves and tunnels though). I think 3 would be OK too, or was it 4? (the one with the surrounding ocean), as long as the Noob team gets Shinuyama :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

World of symmetry map. I call it as a 3 game veteran.

The game is named after me. The whole story of the game is based on my pretenders. I name the map.

Mysterio

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

In my opinion:

1. is too big.
2. is too big AND would give vets a big hand up as the center has all the gold and goodies, while indy garrisons keep noobs bottled up. Even without prescripted sites and indies the center has all the farmlands.
3. is a bit too big, but otherwise, why not.
4., 5. why not.

And Sept, remember: If you really intend to put the vets in the center of the map, remember that area of the circle is relative to the square of the radius. Which means, you need to give people crammed in the middle some breathing room or things are really cramped. Seriously cramped.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Keep those map recommendations coming. Any other symmetrical maps that I may be missing let me know.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I played a bit on World of Geometry, and the level 4 independents would be overwritten by the special garrisons all over that map, which are rather challenging for a typical expansion army sometimes.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I feel that we should select the map before finally submitting the nation preference list because well... the map selection might somehow effect someones opinion about the role of a particular nation

additionally what is the hold up? If septimus can go ahead and select a map today the vets can submit their list of preferred nations by tomorrow and then maybe we can get this game started before next monday? thoughts?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Sounds good to me. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

The noobs are finalizing their list now. The map choice should get more attention than it has. What have there been, 3 or 4 out of 18 votes? Anyway, the noob nation list should hopefully be ready by tomorrow.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

There's the modified versions of World of Geometry that were used for Prepo. The team arena version I believe. It had 12 branches instead of 10.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well I don't care that much about which map we play. Though if I remember correctly there is one part were sailing nations reach the opposite side of the land in Rorschach. Unless I'm thinking of another map or thats been changed.

So we should have what, a friday/saturday start

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Hey guys! Just dropping a line to let you know I'm not dead. I'm just staying at a friend's place while I look for housing, and so its been difficult to get regular internet access/time. Anyway, I'm going to try to look at the noob forum today or tomorrow. I'll be back home on thursday, and then this can be rocked :).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ok, so we are waiting for Unoptimized to post his official choice so both teams can scratch it off their team list. We know what he will probably take so this will happen very shortly.

Then I need the vet team to PM me their ranked team list. I'll post both lists and the results for all too see, so that you all can see I'm not being partial and that it was done correctly. It should be fairly straightforward though, but if someone feels as though they'd prefer an independent party do the team assignments, let me know.

If you'd like to wait until map selection is finalized that is fine, just remember if you say nothing, you have no say! I will assume you don't care eitherway. Here's the link again with the top candidates so far:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...&postcount=187

I do want to move this along as speedily as possible though, so we can get going.

While I'm inclined to toward planet Roarscach #4 (terrible speller) because it has a large cental landmass and both teams can be placed so that they can have a common front, I also like AOM Ogre. True AOM Ogre is rather large, however the actual land prov/player ratio is a bit less, about 23. That water in the middle does introduce some interesting strategic attack options, and would force most battles to take place in the sea. So think about it.

Hopefully, we can begin the pretender creation/placement phase by this weekend.

Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

oops, edit my above post, that is Planet Rorscach #3, not #4 on my list. Yeah there is a version with sailing starts, but I'll be placing nations manually so doesn't really matter I don't think. I'm going to get in touch with Cleveland if I can for a recommendation.

Oh yeah, and Hoplosternum is in for Vellon (no responses/no posts on our forum). I haven't heard from Skinu in awhile either. So some more noobs/alternates would be nice. I like to be prepared. :)

Yep, that one is on my list of candidates already.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

i think that in theory the map selection definitely effects the effectiveness of some individual nations... now people might be too lazy to change their preferences in light of this data but it seems to only be technically correct that the map be declared before the preferences of nations submitted?


certainly map selection is not dependent on untopimized's pick... so perhaps we can have the map selected by tonight/tomorrow so that when unoptimized is home and tells you his nation that will allow us all to submit our preferred list of nations?

if you currently have a list of preferred nations that is one nation longer than it needs to be all you will have to do when untopimized picks his nation is to remove it from your list that had an extra nation on it.... that step will require no extra deliberation

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I vote 3. Planet Rorschach for the map

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Personally I don't like any of the maps for this game :p

I think you want a map which allows all 18 (?) players to fight each other. No one will learn much or have a great time lurking around at the back. Everyone, if possible, needs a front line.

The maps chosen while nice for ordinary mp or sp play don't fit this. They have too much sea which will stop people getting at the other side (Ogre is especially bad for this) or have constricted fronts (Symetry & the Geometry ones especially). Cleveland's Map (Map 3) is best but I think is inferior to simply making a random map with our set up.

If we make a random with very little sea (say 5% or less) for say 360 provinces at 1600*1600 pixels (so square) you should get a decent set up. These are easy to create.

We could then set up the 6 vets in a line east to west in the middle. With a line of 6 noobs close to the North edge (but not right on it) and 6 more in the same position in the south. You would get a map looking something like this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXxXXXXXXX
X 6 Noobs here XXXXXX
X XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 Vets here XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 South Noobs XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

With each X being roughly a column of provinces (19*19 = 361). PS it's really square :)


This would give the noobs only a small amount of safe space behind their capitals so they have to expand towards danger (the Vets). The Vets have no safe space but lots of expansion room. This way the edge advantage is lessened as there is little safe hinterland that only the edge powers have. Plus the powers don't meet straight away allowing for expansion.

This enables everyone to get to at least some enemies by walking. It also gives plenty of strategy options. The Vets can perhaps shield the south 6 with two while sending four north. Or spread equally each way so they can all attack or defend in either direction. While no noob is stuck at the back the noobs could shield weaker powers somewhat. And at roughly 19 provinces wide all sets of six work out nicely with the capital and all surrounding provinces being available - everyone gets that - then expands north or south (or both) but not east or west initially. You could zig zag the Capitals if needed but I am not sure this is desirable.

Even though 20 per player is a little large these games are unlikley to drag on very long on past experience and so will end before late game micromanagement hell decends :p

Obviously it's best if we can get a neutral to build the map and place the capitals. But we can even use the set up without. I (or someone) makes the map and places the 18 capital locations. Then sends the map to the opposition to check that the Capital placements are reasonable and what was decided. Then, after nation selection, the noobs announce the (say) northern 6 noob powers locations east to west. Then the Vets put down their six in whatever order they like (knowing the 6 northern locations). Then the noobs declare the southern 6. So neither side can guarantee fully the match ups they like.

Anyway if you are really sold on those 5 I think Cleveland's map is best for this one game. But a random is best of all. Whatever we play we have to find someone (or some method) to place the powers. Unless you want to go random which is likely to marginalise some powers into spectators (and turn others in to doomed surrounded victims) on set up :(

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I thought the idea of at least map # 3 was to put teams into two cocentric circles. Vets in the middle and noobs on the edges. Could accomplish the same goal as hoplosternums.

Anyway the effect of these mostly uniform maps and geometric placements will be that the first kill will be a hard thing to achieve. How it will play will be fun to see...

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

The map I'm talking about is greatly different than the one referred to in your maps post. I'll attach it.

I think if you took the World of Geometry remake (prepo team arena version, not the regular version), took out all special indeps and sites, added cave connections between the branches so that the noobs can support each other and if one of them dies it threatens their immediate neighbors rather than giving a time buffer, and then added some more connections between places near the center to the caves OR eliminate the center <-> caves connections entirely. I don't think either team wants to keep on switching ownership of the center prov just to be able to perform an offensive through that prov.

Here's the original map, and also included is a second version that I propose as the variant we use. I've just swapped the center prov's connections to the 4 port provs surrounding it, removed all special sites, indeps, and poptypes, removed the VP, and added some branch<->branch connections to allow the noobs to interact. When placing starts on this map, I recommend putting the vets between the center and the start of the branches, not too close to the port provs as you don't want us in the caves system early. For the vets, something like provs 215, 144, 143 etc). The noobs should get access to the caves system early and most of their branch, I'd recommend placing them pretty far back in the branches, something like 132, 229, 56. You'll have to do some nostart editing as the start positions I think are pretty fixed.

If there's one thing contentious about the things I've changed, I think it might be the branch<->branch connections. They connect all the noob caps in a big ring with small spaces in between, which could be difficult for dominion management, and perhaps defense. However, other than the caves system, there isn't any way to move between branches. If you put branch<->branch connections further up the branches, it would be safer, but the vets might secure them first.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Hi all,

S-S tells me you guys are considering Planet Rorschach for your map. If so, I hope you enjoy it, as this seems like a fun game.

The most up-to-date version is available in my signature, annoyingly named PlanetRorschach v4b.

S-S also asked for some placement advice...If I were setting up this game, I'd probably set the teams up as follows:
Attachment 8352
...where Blue is the Vet team, Red is Noobs. [I'd eliminate all the starts with a white slash through them, so no underwater nations.]

With these starts, the Vets have "circled the wagons" against the Noob assault (remember, it's wraparound), but they're split in half by the sea...so the water AND the center are both of vital strategic importantance. For added fun, I'd probably put the weakest Noob nation in the center, which the Vets will surely drive directly toward, making for some exciting Turn 5 action.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I'm traveling this weekend (as usual), but shouldn't be more than 12hrs from a computer.

Cheers,
cleveland

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well, while you are traveling, be sure to put the finishing touches on your much-anticipated MA Man guide. :)