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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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Anyway, voting will remain open until at least 05:00 GMT on 10-6. After that we will resume play as expediently as we can. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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and yes, I hope we'd be above any shenanigans but everyone might not feel obligated to cooperate with an option they didn't agree to. Or they might not be bothered to read all the posts/emails etc... Options A, and C don't require any cooperation whatsoever and B only requires a tiny bit (refrain from sending new 2h's during the short time window while Zeldor is doing his free turns). |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Cant help saying that this poll is just baaaaaaaaaaaad.
A) This variant is unacceptable for Zeldor. If we choose A, congratulations - we've lost 10 days only to continue playing without Zeldor. B) It seem this version has most votes by now. C) This variant is unacceptable for me. Do you really want me to go AI to make up for Ermor's stales? D)This is simply an overcompensation. Giving Ermor 3 free turns in late game, with just one turn for us to save our armies, when he already has a huge lead in armies and gems (except me maybe), is an I.WIN button - Marignon will die with no hopes to recover. E) It 'almost' ok, but it punishes me for Ermor's stales. I fail to see how this is fair. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I'd surely prefer to have some agreement by biggest players than voting like that. But well, it's not like we didn't try. I will wait till everyone makes a vote and add mine, checking if it can make any difference, as I'd prefer to not vote about a matter that is about me.
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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There is no fear of "splitting the vote" because the schulze system will figure out what would have won in a pairwise runoff between the two best options. So could we please try to make some kind of productive suggestion instead of just griping, complaining, and threatening to quit. Dragar has suggested: Option F: Declare the game finished and Ermor the winner. Kuritza has suggested: something? Fill me in here. What do you want to do? |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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Just because a player doesn't have a realistic chance of getting 1st place in the game, he might still enjoy playing his turns and learning more about the game. It wouldn't seem right to submit a big rollback or force stales on them without allowing them the same chance to weigh in as everyone else. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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Ok, we tried to make an agreement, we suggested some variants. Micah did, I did, you did. We tried. But in my opinion its either everybody agrees on something, or we just go on as is. I can assure you that I will quit this game if we rollback 3 turns after our democratic poll. Or, for example, if we decide on 3 forced stales with one turn in-between, and Ermor takes that opportunity to raid the hell out of me somehow. Or is Man going AI because of these stales a better result than Ermor going AI? If we cant continue normally, we should close this game without a winner. P.S. Well, I have another solution. There are 10 players in this game; if one player can ask for a 3-turns rollback, so can others, right? I vote for a 30-turns rollback. Then its fair for everyone! |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
/givecookie_to_Kuritza
Well said. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Then again, just closing the game is still punishing these of us who didnt stale and just want to keep playing. ^^
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
okay so I tried to help the group come to a fair solution. But obviously I have failed completely as a leader.
Since my approval rating is hovering at exactly 0% there is no point to me continuing as admin. The admin password is painintheass Good luck to anyone who wants to step up and take over. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Actually you did a very good job - maybe we should just let the poll stay up one more day and then count the votes.
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Huh, I think you are doing really well. Way better than Juffos. I only think that poll is a bit too much, as it seems people would be ok [well, by ok I mean pissed as much] as with you making a decision and just presenting it. I really really hope you won't get discouraged and give up on any admining, it usually does not have problems like that.
BTW, I'd prefer continuing without stales if I could only get a diplomatic agreement with Marignon and Man. I can only object to that because I know that MArignon and Man are going to fight me and with that stales I have 0% chances to win against both of them. I am not even sure if I could kill Man or Marignon alone. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Hey, I didn't do anything during this except leaning back and eating popcorn, you can't compare me to him :)
It seems like the only way to end this drama with no casualties is to declare the game an unlimited stalemate works. Guild won. No regrets. Comments? |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I like the "everyone loses" part - except that I don't want to lose! I want to be vanquished like a REAL god! Me! Me! Why isn't anyone paying any attention?!
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Well thanks for the positive comments but, as I thought, it may be too late to save this game.
Someone has changed the admin password and posted a cute new status message. I don't know who did it. Maybe it's better if we just forget the whole mess every happened. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Meh... :( I liked this game.
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Perhaps it wasnt such a good idea to post the password.
Postponing the game for 10 days and making this poll wasnt a good solution too, but now we are screwed. But at least I will be able to go on vacation without worrying about this game. Whoever did this dumb prank - thanks for making me waste all this time for such a stupid ending. By the way, this is JUST what I was saying. One player staled, and instead of continuing this game, maybe reaching some diplomatic solution, this madness with 3-turns rollback (why not 30, indeed) or forced stales ensued, so in the end this game was ruined for everyone instead of just one player. I have learned from my mistake in Qwerty. Too bad I have to learn from the same mistake again, without even repeating it. P.S. Anyway, I think Llama can fix the problem. If we ask him for it, of course. But it looks like some of us just dont want to continue. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
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If someone wants to take some leadership then talk to lamabeast and take the game over. Otherwise it is time to put the game out of its misery. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Ok.
I think we need at least five votes (sorry, more votes) to continue this game, with or without Ermor or anybody else who doesnt want to play. Then we'll find some diplomatic solution. I'd prefer us all to give Ermor a 3-turns NAP, and let him push these who atacked him one province back. I mean, reclaim all provinces he currently has a border with, that were his before the stales. Then he will have some more time to recover, move fresh spawn etc. These who attacked him still get to hold some new provinces, so it should be a good solution for them too. Better than closing game anyway. I vote for it, so 4 more votes please. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Kuritza, your suggested compensation is about as useful as a band-aid on a severed limb. It not only leaves Ermor worse off in terms of army losses and positioning, but provinces and forts as well. It also doesn't do anything to help Zeldor "catch up" with you or the rest of the players, leaving you with a three turn time advantage on top of the damage inflicted.
The only acceptable solutions to restore some semblance of balance to the game involve stales or rollbacks, IMO, though Zeldor can decide what he's willing to accept if there's still a discussion going on. There is likely going to have to be meaningful compromise for anything to be salvaged from this wreck, and your weak suggestions make me doubt that you're really that interested in reaching an agreement if it harms you in any way. You sat back for a full week while Ermor staled and didn't say a word as far as I can tell, so you're at least somewhat complicit in letting things get to this point. That being said, I don't think it would be unreasonable for any staling agreement to restrict attacks on you, since you didn't attack Ermor while he was staling. It IS reasonable for you to lose 2 or 3 turns worth of forging/research/etc. so that you don't gain a time advantage over Ermor. I still believe that 2 immediate stales would be sufficient, or some 3/1 hybrid scheme, but 2 turns of stales with a turn of preparation is an extremely weak solution in comparison to the damage that was done while Ermor was staling, since he had armies completely surrounded and wiped out, retreats cut and forts sieged and stormed, all of which can't really be done in 2 turns if your opponent simply moves a province away from the border. Just my thoughts on the matter, as an experienced player and a (mostly) neutral observer, though I obviously would like to come up with a solution that works for Zeldor since I was supposed to be subbing for him, so take that bias as you will. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Yes, I am absolutely unwilling to reach a compromise that harms me, because
1) Its not my fault that he staled. He should continue or go AI, but not make us close this game. 2) I didnt benefit from his stales. I didnt capture his land. Why should I suffer? Despite that, I am willing to try and find *some* solution. You seem to imply that we have to offer him a 100% compensation - WHY? Let me repeat myself: I posted here that Ermor stales as soon as I noticed that its his third stale. I dont regularily check stales, you know. And Ermor got some random 'cultist attacks' events, so I was getting scout reports that Ermor attacks Marignon. He even attacked me during the stales that way. :) To sum it up - we arent guilty that Ermor staled, and I want to continue. If there are more players who want to continue as well, we have every right to do so. If they are willing to compensate Ermor for his own stales somewhat - the better, and I hope that it will convince him to stay. But I am not willing to lose all my fetishes because Ermor staled. Or rollback my entire successful war effort. BUMP: Post here if you want to continue this game with no stales and rollbacks, compensating Ermor for the stales via diplomacy. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
1) It's not really anyone's fault that Zeldor staled, he took reasonable precautions and tried to find a sub instead of holding up the game by asking for a delay. It didn't work out properly, and now everyone should be willing to compromise a bit to try to sort things out. It's a crappy situation, so crappy things have to happen to resolve it, trying to dump all of the responsibility and consequences on Zeldor for something that was in large part not his fault isn't a good solution.
2) Claiming that you don't benefit from your biggest rival losing a quarter of his provinces, 3 turns worth of orders, and sizable forces and positioning is farcical. You should "suffer" because otherwise you gain a sizable advantage for no in-game reason, just an administrative failure. And I don't see how a few stales with no one attacking you really constitutes a large degree of suffering anyhow. As to why I think 100% compensation is ideal: Because, as I said, I don't believe Zeldor should be punished in-game for an out-of-game oversight that was far from exclusively his fault, so 100% seems like an ideal number to shoot for. That being said, I think both of my proposed solutions are somewhat conservative, and that he'll come out in worse relative shape than he was in 3 turns back. Obviously a perfect compensation is impossible, but I think my suggestions would hit about 80-90%, leaving Zeldor slightly worse off, but as close as we can get to an equitable solution while making sure he doesn't actually come out ahead. It may be reasonable to allow Jotun's army in 262 to retreat if immediate stales occur, but looking at Zeldor's turn that is the only exposed army he has access to. Marignon's assaults wiped him off the islands wholesale and he now has nothing there to counterattack with. Watering that down even further with a full turn of preparation is so weak as to be be nearly useless. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Fewer fetishes. Immediate stales are going to kill scouts with items worth 10 gems each.
And yes, I feel sorry for his plight, 3 stales is painful. And still I dont feel oblidged to compensate because things like that happen. I wont be given same luxury in any other game, just as I wasnt allowed rollbacks before. Thus, I am surprised that this game was stopped because of one man's stales. Yes, he did take precautions, but they were not enough. I am subbing a friend right now, in 3 games, and he doesnt stale there because he knew he is leaving and forwarded me the incoming turns. Accept that your have made an error and learn from it, not make your fellow players suffer for it. Do you really have to stop this game just because you are less likely to win it now? |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I made an error? Where? Game admin told me game is probably ending on Sunday, but I contacted Micah to sub for me in case it does not happen. I contacted game admin and told him Micah is my sub. I got confirmation. What else could I do? Take his phone number, so I can make an international call from holiday to check that he really changed the email address to Micah's?
And why do you keep on bringing bad admin behaviour from other games here? And try to justify my losses with that? If you don't play here to win and have no hopes to do that, why are you trying to make absolutely sure I have no chances to win? You keep on repeating the word "fair" all the time, but you must have a completely different understanding of it's meaning. I never asked for succession, I never said I am going to crush everyone. I never said I want 100% compensation for my stales. All I want is fair chance. And you are sending silly counteroffers, showing that you are willing to do almost anything to negate that. All that while complaining about WraithLord's victory. Don't you think it's exactly what he did? You think people like his behaviour? I am pretty sure there is a bunch of players that wouldn't want him in their games. I have sent PM's to both Kuritza and Ossa. I am willing to negotiate - if other side is too. So far I don't see it. I could agree to 0 or 1 stales from others. But in exchange for something. And by smth I mean a fair chance to get back to the game. I really don't feel like volunteering myself for punishement over smth I didn't do. I'm not going to continue like that - as I'd simply prefer to join new game instead of watching my empire get devoured for out of game reasons. I also wouldn't turn AI, as that game could as well be finished if it happened. I simply can't understand how anyone else would prefer not having the game finished [or getting meaningless finish] over getting some agreement. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Exactly.
You prefer to ruin this game for everyone because its ruined for you after YOUR stales. Its a damn bad behaviour if you ask me. Selfishness incarnate. And no, its not just WL who complained against a rollback. There were also Ossa/Klagrok team and Meglobob who were playing. They ALL objected against ONE rollback, almost calling me a cheater and a liar meanwhile. And no again, I dont call his victory 'unfair' now, WL earned it and it was a good lesson for me. I make silly counteroffers? I didnt bring up anything as ABSURD as 'rollback three turns or close the game calling me a victor' yet. My offer may seem silly to you, but it doesnt mean you are right. You are willing to continue with '0 or 1 stales from others. But in exchange for something'. Cool. That something you offered was 'promise you wont attack me until I defeat Marignon'. You dont understand just HOW insolent it sounds, do you? You had a VERY good start, with new players allowing you to absorb other races one by one, affraid of attacking you. And now you offered me to leave you alone until you finish Marignon too? And you call it a 'fair chance'?! I want to finish this game with no stupidity like 3-turns rollback, 3-turns stales and letting LA Ermor conquer the rest of the map without interfering anyhow. Let these who attacked you during stales return your lands, I didnt take them. All I can offer is a NAP, five turns or so, and I think this offer is good. >>I simply can't understand how anyone else would prefer not having the game finished [or getting meaningless finish] over getting some agreement. I'm all for getting some agreement. Just not 'bend over and die', thank you. If you can offer something REASONABLE, not 'let me defeat Marignon and then crush you', please do it. Demanding that Marignon returns you ALL your lands is also unreasonable and proves that you arent really looking for 'a good chance'. Its YOUR problem that you staled. I have NO GODDAMN IDEA why Juffos told you this game is over while there were many votes to keep playing in the game thread. So I REALLY want to read what other players think about this game. If we still have enough players willing to play on, we will play on. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I have followed this game since it started, mainly out of my personal interest of wanting to see how LA Ermor faired (as I started a game as LA Ermor at the exact same time this game kicked off). But I must say there are several things about the recent problem that confuse me. Especially the opinions that some of the current players have regarding it.....
A) Some players gained nothing by Ermor staling. Urrhh, come again? How can that sort of statement possibly be true. If the game leader stales for three turns (and by the concession talk, I assume Ermor was the leader pre-stales) then every single nation gains from it. No exceptions. Everyone has gained because the game leader has become weaker. A nation always becomes weaker when they stale. It is certain that some nations gained more than others, but to say that some nations gained nothing is an absolutely ridiculous idea. I see some experienced and talented players voicing this opinion, so please come on, be real about this. You all know that every single nation has gained from Ermor staling, so anyone saying otherwise is only doing themselves an injustice as a player. B) Nobody is at fault. Again, What?!? Firstly the admin is directly to blame for not doing what was necessary to ensure the sub for Ermor was installed correctly. If the thread comments are correct, then Zeldor informed the admin who his sub would be if the game continued (as there was talk of it ending). And again if the thread comments are correct, then this was also confirmed by the admin. I've admined several games now, and I can't see what more Zeldor could have done to ensure a sub got setup for him. Apart from of course choosing to vacation somewhere with internet access (but that last comment is just my attempt at humour) When I admin a game, if a player informs me of the required info to sort out their sub, and I fail to do it, then it's directly my fault. Not the players. And if this scenario did happen to me, then I'd put my hand up and say I messed up big time, and make a firm decision on what to do about it. Just because an admin has been knocked out of a game is not any excuse for an admin to abandon his admin duties to that game. An admin has a responsibility to ensure the game runs smoothly, is getting played fairly (in an out-of-game sense), and that all necessary admin jobs are getting done. And this responsibity does not end until the game ends, or a replacement admin is found. Also, I always think the players in the game are at fault if they do not point out that a nation is staling. The first stale is of course almost impossible to spot coming, but once a nation has staled, the fact that they have staled should always be pointed out to the admin. And I accept maybe the first stale is not always spotted on the staling logs, although from having played LA Ermor, there is no way I can believe it would not be blindingly obvious in-game to anyone fighting them that they were staling. So while an obvious reason can be found to not have prevented the first stale. And even plausible reasons to not have prevented the second stale. It really is becoming abuse to allow a nation to stale three consecutive turns without the players in the game having attempted to prevent it. Especially the game leading nation. If the admin was notified about the staling and chose to ignore it, then I most certainly apologise. But I only see one reference to it on the thread itself, and I believe that was after Ermor had already staled three times. It also has to be taken into account that before the stales, Ermor had a perfect track record for turn submission. So it can not be claimed that Ermor was a regular staler in any way, and that these recent stales were ignored due to Ermor staling being 'a regular thing'. I'd like to believe that all players are here for a fair fight. And if that is true, then all players have a constant responsibility to ensure that a fair fight is taking place at all times. And by fair I mean fair as in out-of-game, as fair in-game is a completely different matter. And beating up a staler is certainly not fair by a long way. I accept that it is not a players fault if their opponent is staling, but it is their fault if they do not notify the admin about a staling opponent. Beating up a staling nation, and keeping silent about it, is just about the lowest possible form of Dominions gaming in my books (and I'm sure in the books of many other players as well). C) NAP's, events from other games, and regular stales The first two have absolutely no bearing at all on the current issue. I really don't see why they keep getting brought up. Problems should try to be sovled, but all I see being brought up is how similar problem have happened in other games, and inadequate solutions were found to them. So these same inadequate solutions should be used here as well. How is that even logical for one moment? With the third, I certainly agree that stales happen, and that most of the time it is the player themselves who is at fault. But I don't see how that is the case here. Zeldor was away when all this happened, with no access to a computer (not that I'd personally want to fuss about with something like Dominion anyway if I was on vacation, regardless of computer access). And in that situation he correctly lined up a sub for himself for the duration of his absence, and had confirmation from the admin that notification about the sub had been received. So I don't see any reason why Zeldor should have to suffer in-game for the out-of-game issue that caused Ermor to stale three times. Or have any real blame laid upon him (apart from maybe being blamed for trusting an admin who was defeated, to actually do their admin job properly). As far as it's possible to avoid, out-of-game issues should not have any dramatic effects on in-game events. Zeldor going away, and his sub not being correctly arranged by the admin, are both out-of-game issues. So I think any suggestion that this event should just be ignored, and the game continued as is with zero, or maybe just minimum compensation for Ermor, is extremely unfair. As it has basically had the effect of turning the entire game on it's head. And whether or not Ermor are still the most powerful nation is again irrelevant. They are not as powerful as they were before the stales, and the stales were entirely caused by an out-of-game issue. If my understanding is correct from the thread messages, then the situation is that Kuritza and Ossa are the only two directly against the option of a full rollback. Kuritza, because he won a war that involved taking a lot of risks, and quite rightly, doesn't want to have to rely on the random number generator to repeat that victory. So I personally think Kuritza does have a valid claim as to why a full rollback would punish him considerably (more on this in a bit). Ossa on the other hand seems to be against the rollback because then he wouldn't be able to cheaply kill off Ermor's main army(ies), and grab a load of forts and provinces in the process. This to me is exactly the reason why the game should be rolled back. As in the first place, I think it is a very bad show to not only beat-up a staler without mentioning that they were staling (and please don't claim you didn't know), but to then strongly object to the rollback is a serious abuse of a staling nation IMO. That is basically taking the stance of "I gained a huge unfair advantage when my opponent staled, and I have no intention of giving it back, so there". To me at least, any player taking that type of stance is immediately branding themselves as a player who has more interest in purely winning a game rather than in playing fair. So maybe I can offer another possible solution.... "The game is rolled back the three turns to before Ermor started staling, and conditions imposed so that the war Kuritza won is winnable again, but without any of the risks that were attached to it first time around." If that means the nation Kuritza defeated has to stale or submit suicidal orders, then so be it. That particular war has already been fought and an outcome achieved in Kuritza's favour, so it would be unfair and unreasonable to give the defeated nation another crack at surviving it. I am not sure if there are any other major wars/battles elsewhere that would need the same provisions made, but Kuritza's successful war victory seems to be the one most mentioned in the discussion, and unless I am mistaken, his main objection to the rollback (as it would be unfair on him to ask him to win a war a second time if he took risks to win it the first time). These of course are just my observations, and the only vested interest I have in this game is that I have followed it from the start via the thread and llamascores, and would hate to see a good game get ruined by an administrative mistake. Since as a regular admin, that would also make me upset, as it would result in a game being decided purely due to a bad mistake by the admin. Maybe all this is mute now though if control of the password and with it the game has been lost (although I do hope someone has notified llamabeast about this so that he can get control back). There are some competitive players here, but I hope also fair ones. I'd hope that it can be seen that the stales were of no fault of Zeldor's, as he arranged a sub which was confirmed by the admin. Yes the stales are most certainly Zeldor's problem, but they are certainly not his fault. So asking him to just "suck it up" and accept the stales is asking too much. Not without some form of compensation (and it's only really Zeldor who can judge how much compensation he would need to keep playing). Likewise, asking Kuritza to accept having to win his risky war again if the game is rolled-back is also asking too much IMO. If any major nation is lost to the AI over this issue, then the game as a creditable contest more or less immediately comes to an end as I see it. So a compromise is the only solution, and one needs to be reached if the huge amount of time invested by everyone to date is to be salvaged. I don't see how the 'pain' of having to re-do turns is really an issue. Yes it is unwelcome to have the time the last three turns took wasted. But it pales into insignificance when compared to having the time the last 56 turns took wasted. Although if players are happy to play on in a game that has absolutely no credibility, then that's up to them really. Some ideas have already been offered, and I have offered another one above. Maybe I can also offer another perspective as well from which to operate. Instead of looking ahead and trying to find a way to arrange it so that Ermor regains ground while other nations stale, why not look back and say go with the full rollback, and try to help ensure that all non-Ermor related events play out as closely as possible to how they did. (such as provisions being made so that Kuritza wins his war again). I apologise if my comments as an outsider are unwanted. I maybe also offer some apologies to anyone I have offended with my criticisms. Although where criticism has been mentioned, I personally feel it is warranted. Problems happen in games, and usually the most effective method of solution is to work towards a compromise. There are mostly always parties to blame for causing these problems, although in this case those parties are not the ones being punished. I hope my comments have been of some help, or even if the comments haven't, then hopefully my idea and 'new perspective' have been. I feel very sorry for SciencePro to have been handed this mess. Although I would ask him to stick with it, as there'll be no discredit to him if this games falls, but there is HoF admin status awaiting him if he does mange to somehow keep this game going :) Edit: @ Kuritza - Can I please kindly ask you one question. What would you need to see happen to accept the game being rolled back the three turns to before the Ermor stales? Is a guarantee that you would win your war again enough? Maybe winning it cleaner, and with less casualties, could be your form of compensation? (achieved by suicidal orders from your opponent). Would you want something else as well? Or is there just no form of compensation or provision that would accept you allowing the game to be rolled back three turns? |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I have won it as clean as possible. Seriously. Also, I managed to get some unique summons and forge an artifact.
So I just dont see why this game should be THAT unique to allow a 3-turns rollback. When Jomon had lots of stales, Ermor saw it as a good reason to attack Jomon - it wasnt a problem. When Ermor staled and somebody saw it as a good reason to attack Ermor, its a problem and we have to roll it back. Double standard? Sorry, things like that happen. Zeldor should have asked Mikah to check game thread maybe. Heck, he shouldnt have *counted* on this game to end. Its called overconfidence. Also, I was that annoyed by a 10-days stale because I dont have much time before my own vacation. But thanks to this childish outbreak, I will have to ask my sub to do the hardest part for me. If this game even contunues, of course. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
while i really don't care that much
this following is a silly solution ===== So maybe I can offer another possible solution.... "The game is rolled back the three turns to before Ermor started staling, and conditions imposed so that the war Kuritza won is winnable again, but without any of the risks that were attached to it first time around." If that means the nation Kuritza defeated has to stale or submit suicidal orders, then so be it. That particular war has already been fought and an outcome achieved in Kuritza's favour, so it would be unfair and unreasonable to give the defeated nation another crack at surviving it. I am not sure if there are any other major wars/battles elsewhere that would need the same provisions made, but Kuritza's successful war victory seems to be the one most mentioned in the discussion, and unless I am mistaken, his main objection to the rollback (as it would be unfair on him to ask him to win a war a second time if he took risks to win it the first time). ==== the war was against me it was the first few turns i ever faced a war against an experienced player in MP one of the three turns I staled (can't rem why now) the other i did sleep deprived on a train and forgot to load my casters up with gems also, as most of the good advice on how to play came from zeldor his absence as a person during this time was key feature in my downfall he had huge numbers of troops adjacent to some of the battlegrounds if we rollback, things will be different a) i know a lot more b) my main ally will be around c) i saw how things might progress on that terrain d) unlikley things happened, like my god dying with a single bad MR save e) zeldor might take action i expect to still die but to cause more serious losses bye for now anthropos |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
ps: to whoever stole the admin slot
your poem is wonderful i hope you are honorable enough to return control of the game to us if you pm me the password so we can at least try and fix things i swear on the blood of my first dead DnD character never to reveal your identity anthropos |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Actually, I think you overestimate that first-hit soul slay. Of course, it was goddamn dramatic, but I dont take chances, usually anyway. Your goddess was more or less doomed.
I had two SCs there, one of them with artifact weapon, Lich with D5 (unscripted, but I still think he would cast drain life or two), some spectres with frost aura (your goddess had no cold immunity) and two astal mages, just in case. But I bet you wouldnt send your goddess without giving her pearls and scripting returning, so my para-drop wouldnt work for the second time indeed. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Well said Calahan. Sadly, it seems to me at this point that Quitti and Zeldor (Edit: and SciencePro, didn't realize he had subbed in, he's not listed in the OP) are the only players here that are capable of acting in a fashion that supports fair play instead of their own base self-interest, so it's a waste of breath to continue.
I personally liked your suggestion, but Anthropos seems opposed to it, and Kuritza continues to spout meaningless noise to cover for the fact that he's not actually willing to give up his undeserved spot as game-leader by agreeing to a compromise. I see that he has time to post about how awesome his battle-group is, but not to address your question about providing an equitable rollback compromise. I find it deeply ironic that he uses the word "childish." Ossa's stated position is no better, though he's not as vocal. The section under the C heading is especially spot on, and yet Kuritza continues to try to cling to other games ("this game be THAT unique") and other situations (Jomon's staling) as a smoke screen. For the record, I DON'T think this game should be "unique" in allowing rollbacks or some other solution given the situation, but I'd point out the exceptionally poor behavior by a majority of players in the game as to why it would be if it were to actually happen. Evidently compromising isn't in peoples' skill set around here. And I agree with your fault-assessment, but I was trying to be diplomatic. In terms of resolving the situation it doesn't really matter whose fault it is as long as it's not Zeldor's, which it is not, so I was trying to avoid pointing fingers. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I haven't read Calahan's post, it was too long. In fact I haven't read most posts here. Can somebody sum up Calahan's post to me? Was it a reformulation of Sheap's rules for Multiplayer etiquette or what people call the "metagame"?
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Quote:
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Maybe some extra unique summon(s) or artefact(s) could form part of any compensation if you missed out on them (and hence wasted the resources on, so could therefore save/use those resources) Quote:
The key to my solution is to try and make every non-Ermor related incident happen just as it did. So that way the game can return to this turn after a rollback, with Kuritza being in the same position as he is now (or better due to some form of compensation). You having a chance to defend yourself better is NOT part of the solution, and would only cause more problems if it happened. So while you say "if we rollback, things will be different", the entire point is that things should not be any different at all in your war if the game is rolled back. Quote:
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And of course Sheap explained all the MP etiquette rules far better than I ever could. Here's the link to Sheap's fantastic "Multi-player 101 Guide" on how to play and act during MP games for those who have not read it (you should!). Think I must have read this at least a dozen times before playing my first MP game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=32050 |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Micah, YOU had to sub Zeldor, and YOU failed to check if the game has ended or not.
I was the one who actually asked to pause this game when I noticed that Ermor stales. And thank you for referring to personal insults, yes. Underserved spot? As a game leader? Say again, I cheated somehow or what? I didnt work to get what I have in this game? Or maybe I didnt suggest that Marignon and Utgard must give Zeldor some land back, and I refused to give Zeldor a NAP? And, while we are at it, ROLLBACK IS NOT A COMPROMISE!!! Its Zeldors demand. Or does 'compromise' mean 'shutting the hell up and agreeing to Zeldors demands' now? But yeah, I'm the one who spouts meaningless nonsense. Hell yeah, I HAD! to agree to a rollback, nullifying my progress. Or I had to stale, killing my fetish-holders. Right, 'compromise' is making a player who just played his own part suffer for another players fault! And what I offered was a 'nonsense' because it didnt provide a 100% compensation! GREAT! You 'dont think this game should be unique' by providing 3-turns rollbacks etc, yet you keep coming here and blaming me for not agreeing to this nonsense. Poor behaviour, my ***. I asked to stop this game to stop Zeldor's slaughter, I supported a diplomatic solution, and its NOT my fault that according to Zeldor, diplomatic solution means 'not attacking him until Marignon is dead' and anything less is 'nonsense'. All I wanted is to continue this goddamn game, because I had a good position which I deserved. To hell with you both. Close this farce of a game, losers cant be winners. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Oh, and Calahan.
Thanks for coming. You were the only one who made sense here, I appreciate it. I dont agree to rollbacks, because I just dont want to do the same tedious routine again where I managed everything so perfectly once, but at least you tried to make it sound appealing and count my interests in too. I just dont want to continue this game anymore. I dont play with these who cant take it like a man after a mistake. I dont play with these who openly say they wont let others to finish this game if they arent allowed to have it their way. And I wont play here after I was told that I 'spout meaningless noise to cover for the fact that he's not actually willing to give up his undeserved spot as game-leader by agreeing to a compromise'. And these guys dare to say something against WL? |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Wow. Dominions is serious business. I lost the game due to five stales in the earlymid game and an opportunistic Ermor in the close neighbourhood. Had fun defending against the impossible odds :)
Oh wow look, suddenly, two rollbacks, how is this possible? I guess some divine fate wants the drama to end and the game to continue. The Emperor's hand guide us all. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Close This Goddamn Game!
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Kuritza, from the sounds of things, the war you won was against Zeldor's *ally*. Claiming you didn't benefit from Zeldor's staling in such a situation is beyond the point of credibility. In fact, from Anthropos description, there were Ermorian armies *right there* on the border who could have intervened if Ermor had not been staling.
Surely, you knew Anthropos was Zeldor's ally. Misrepresenting the extent Ermor was effected or could have effected your war is as good as lying to try to retain an unfair advantage. So I agree with Calahan's long post with the following exception: you should have to refight the war because Ermor may well defend its ally. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Keep on arguing and I will declare AI Jomon the winner.
>:| if the capital still holds, of course. You both are quite stubborn and I like bananas. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
As we are here, I could clarify some things:
- I would have probably attacked Man by now, if not the stales, as his conquer of Caelum was a direct threat to me - before stales I had another border with Man, through Marignon lands I conquered - there were many offers I sent to Kuritza, he just chose to keep on mentioning one of them, the one he found unacceptable - his offers were way more profitable for him than for me, 3-5 turns of peace gives him only time to prepare, while denying my chance to strike at him like I planned - I don't expect 100% compensation as it's simply impossible, but I still think that doing 3 rollbacks would be more fair than force stales [with focus on 'more'] - I agree that it should be more a talk between Ossa and me, but he is not very vocal and his answer was really straight, without room for negotiations - yes, there were stalers in that game [a bit too many] and all was reported to Juffos - and he switched that players to AI, trying to get some subs earlier; those were not leading nations though and everyone had a same chance to eat a peace of them [every neighbour that is] - bananas are good |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
1) I didnt know Anthropos was an ally of Ermor. Otherwise, I'd have attacked him much, much earlier. I just thought he is too inexperienced to understand that not working together to stop Ermor is suicidal.
2) Pray tell me just how could Ermor help Caelum? By attacking him from the opposite side? 3) Pray tell me, what 'reasonable' offers did I neglect? I quote you: So how about changing that a bit? My offer is to sign long-term peace deal [for example "As long as Marignon lives +3", I could also consider fixed time NAP or just solid NAPX]. You'd grow stronger and face the winner and fight for victory in that game, something you'd surely like And I'd have some chances to try and fight Marignon + Utgard, having some challenge after losing so much. I offered you NAP 5 (just what you asked for), which was called 'Man spouts nonsense' later, without even bothering to make a counter offer, like 'nap 10 would be more like it', so stop lying. Thank you. 4)BY ALL MEANS, please do declare AI Jomon a winner. That would be an ideal solution. Or Arco, I dont care. Just declare somebody who is not Zeldor, Kuritza or Ossa a winner and close the game. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
So 5 turns of peace is that solid fixed time NAP you are referring to. As something I should take after 3 stales and 10 turns lost preparations against Marignon?
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Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
When playing any game, from dominions to DND to monopoly to pickup basketball it is unenviable that disagreements will arise. If you are in such a disagreement you have some options:
A) Come up with a compromise or win-win solution B) Capitulate because you realize that it is more important that the game go on without bad feelings than ruining everybody’s fun over whatever silly thing you are arguing about C) Flip a coin D) take a vote OR E) Demand that you get your way or else you will take your ball and go home I am not going to name any names here, (I could think of at least two) but if you responded to such a situation by threatening to quit before making a serious effort at a compromise then I think you acted with poor judgment and poor sportsmanship. If the game is ruined (as it seems like it might be) then that poor decision-making is the reason why. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
someone has made our decision for us
while i would LOVE to get a second chance to defend against Kuritza (without staling this time) the amount of heat i received for suggesting that just i submit suicidal orders for three turns was a dumb idea has made me reconsider the sanity of the other players unfortunately after all that we did and however many hours we spent here the game is now ruined i'm sad for that my initial proposal was to get kuritza and zeldor to work it out and that i support any agrement the tow of them coudl make funny if that has put me in the 'insanely selfish' category to some (lol) i fear the only reasonable thing to do is go AI and stop reading this thread as fighting kuritza now, even if i did do better would be a very very hollow prize bye for now anthropos |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Lets just get on playing and forget this whole discussion, it's not getting us anywhere anyway now that fact were made by our anonymous admin.
Concerning my "childish" position: I'm just still angry with Zeldor that he talked Ryleth into attacking me, effectivly ending all my hopes to gain ground against Ermor. Thats all ;) Anyone interested in a crusade now? Though Zeldor asked me repeteadly for NAP I'm not going to talk to undead people. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
Apologies Anthropos, I didn't fully read your post regarding Ermor's stales having a direct effect on your conflict with Man. That changes the situation and does in fact justify some level of compensation to you, although it gets tricky since you now know what Kuritza brings to bear. Though it does beg the question why you didn't speak up about your ally's woes.
I was under the impression from Kuritza that the events were discrete entities, and if that were so it would have been unfair for you to get a re-do with your extra knowledge and experience. Hopefully the single stale that Ermor suffered will serve to alleviate that disadvantage for Kuritza and restore a more-or-less level playing field if the game continues. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
>> So 5 turns of peace is that solid fixed time NAP you are referring to. As something I should take after 3 stales and 10 turns lost preparations against Marignon?
Yes, and what else does it look like? You asked for a fixed time NAP, I offered you a fixed time NAP. But then you didnt even bother saying 'No, I want 10 turns of peace', or something like that, you just stopped negotiating and told everyone that I'm not trying to reach a compromise. Now who was ACTUALLY not trying to reach a compromise here?!! Zeldor, you just told us 'my way or high way'. Either rollback, lots of immediate stales, or letting you kill us one by one, or you wont let us finish this game. (Btw it was funny to read how Marignon is so much scarier than you. Were I a new player, I may have even bought that) Anhtropos, I'd love to play with or against you again, but in another game. If I ever decide to play Dominions again. Close this game. I refuse to go on, too much unpleasant feelings here. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I proclaim Utgård the winner!
Seriously, this has gone far enough. It doesn't seem we can find a reasonable solution to this, so the best option would be to a) close the game b) close the game, c) proclaim Utgård the winner and close the game. |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I'd propose Jomon for his attitude of not giving up alone.
Serious, he didnt quit while he was besieged in his only castle for dozends of turns! |
Re: Setsumi - LA game, upload pretenders!
I vote for Jomon.
P.S. I could continue playing if Zeldor & Micah apologize for some things I had to read here, like 'spouting meaningless noise', 'refusing to compromise', 'unfair position' etc. Which will be called another 'Man nonsense', I'm sure. But I'd really prefer to end this game. First, because I'm seriously offended. Second, because of two rollbacks I didnt agree to. Third, because Zeldor managed to stale this game for too long. Next hosting is 15th October, in November I wont be able to play for two weeks. BG, Game over. Jomon for the winner! |
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