Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

There's at least a reasonable chance that you'll get some D2 dwarves, since they're about all you'll be recruiting in your cap for the first 10-15 turns.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

One dwarf in 4 has D1. One dwarf in 10 has another random. Out of these, only 1 in 4 will have another death random. So its 1/4, 1/10 and then another 1/4.
Somebody who doesnt such at math as much as I do can tell us the chance of getting such a mutant.

I've seen one D1F1 dwarf once in my life. Counting on a D2 dwarf is not something I'd advise.

---

But were Allfather to become cheaper, I'd probably pick Earth over Astral, of course... I hate starting with no astral, but Vanjarls really need at least a minor earth bless. And Earth is one of the best paths for an SC, too.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Multiply the factors together, it's a 1/160 to get a d2 Dwarf.
You have twice the chance of getting D1F1, so that's a 1/80.

You are bound to have plenty of D1 dwarfs however, so if you use those to start a death economy you should soon be able to empower one and bootstrap down Death through that road.

Of course, having Death on your Pretender is "really" helpful.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

True I suppose. I guess I'm just being spoiled in my game. I've already gotten 2 D2s and some other 10%s and its like turn 20 or so.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Is there a reason why Knights of Avalon don't get a hoof attack?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Another oddity, Jomon's Ashigaru, Samurai archers, basic Samurai, and Ninjas all have only 9 HP for some reason.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

There's been a lot of discussion about how to rebalance Machaka, and it seems almost entirely there. The latest Black Hunter goldcost change was huge, and I've been seeing people actually use them for expansion(and be justified doing so, too!). I think the nation isn't quite where it needs to be still, though. I'd propose just a handful of minor changes for the next version.

I'll start with the most obvious: for some strange reason, currently Hunter Spiders(once they lose their rider) have a strength of only 11. This is frankly criminal, and it is the reason they deal no damage once their rider is gone. In order to have the same damage with their fangs as they do with a rider, they should have 16 strength.

Province defense can also be easily improved. Simply change the commanders to a Witch Doctor(for the first) and Voice of the Lord. The changes are both thematic and effective--Sermon of Courage makes your masses of Militia no longer so much of a disadvantage, and the Witch doctor can put down some fairly random but occasionally effective magical support. Wandering thugs will occasionally get blinded, combusted, Decayed, and once in a blue moon a Witch Doctor might even get off a lucky Flaming Hands. It's also perfect thematically--Witch doctors even have in their flavor texts that they hide in the wilderness to potshot enemies.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

1 point of PD shouldn't get mages, ever. The only exceptions currently are EA Van and Hel, who literally have no non-mage commanders in their rosters. (Possibly some of the expansion nations have one, though I can't think of any...I just glanced at the lineups in the book)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

LA Marignon at least gets a chartmaker AS 100% random with PD as 2d commander...and they do have other types of leaders

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I think Micah is objecting to one as *first* commander.

Plently of nations get a weak mage as 2nd commander (often because its also a priest). Ermor gets a Pontifex (F1H2) for example.

But as a *first* commander its incredibly rare, and only because the rosters of those nations have no non-mage commanders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Ok my bad, I answered before the question reached my brain :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

regarding the LA Ulm debate (templars and templars vs. guardians)

Just a quick question Fanto: what kind of bless did you put on the templars? I've been running some tests with your 4 templar+priest expansion parties (with a 4N4E4D4S4B bless: I compromised my scales more then I'd like to). They do great against light infantry/archers/light barbarians, but the parties die when put up against barbarians (regular barbarians), HC, or large numbers of HI. I can see using Call Horror+scout against these types of indy provinces, but Call Horror is blood-4, which, if you're going to start blood hunting early (like you should), you're going to be tight in research (as well as unable to touch evocation/construction for some time). I can see the strategy working pretty well, I just think it cuts into Ulm's other research priorities, and leaves Ulm somewhat vulnerable to attack. What was the pretender build you used (since the build has a big impact on the optimal strategy for a nation)? Now that I think about it, you can probably incorporate parties of templars in a general infantry/ranger/villain expansion to make the whole thing go quicker and smoother. I'm going to have to look into that.

Squirrelloid: I ran some tests with the black templars and the ghoul guardians (with the same bless) versus the bless-rush units of other nations (with prophets casting banishment on the ghoul guardians). Against Utgard woodmen with E9N9 bless, I sent 6 templars+prophet vs 6 woodsmen+prophet. The templars are slaughtered every time, while the woodsmen suffer low casualties (1-2, 3 at the most) (a very bad attrition rate, considering woodsmen are cheaper, more resource friendly, and generally more useful). Against 12 ghoul guardians+S1D1 fortune teller (which just cast frighten the entire time) vs. 6 woodsmen+prophet (casting banishment), the guardians win every time (with casualties of 1-5 vs 6), in despite of the banishment. With 6 templars vs 6 F9W9 Vans, the Vans win everytime with barely a scratch. With 12 guardians vs 6 Vans (again with a prophet spamming banishment), the guardians and Vans win some of the time, depending on whose dominion they fight on. If on opposing dominion, guardians generally kill 3-4 Vans (and leaving the remaining Vans with 90ish fatigue) and suffer 7-9 casualties before routing, while on friendly dominion, they kill all of the Vans, while suffering 7-9 casualties. Against Mictlan, I sent 12 Jaguar Warriors (F9W9N4) vs 6 Templars. The templars die to the jags every time, while the jags suffer 1-2 casualties. When I sent ghoul guardians, they won every time (0-3 casualties vs 9-12 casualties). Also note, I omitted smite from the tests against the templars. Banishment played a fairly minor role from the prophet in the attrition of the ghoul guardians. So in conclusion, Squirrelloid, I find your claim that ghoul guardians aren't effective, while templars are effective, against common sacred-rushes to be erroneous at best. Templars are slaughtered every time in the sacred-vs.-sacred battles without the interference of smite, while dealing negligible damage against sacreds themselves. Ghoul Guardians, although being undead (which, on the other hand, makes them an awesome counter against hydras), generally don't suffer all that much against banishment, and will still eat sacred for lunch, dinner, breakfast, and brunch, in no particular order. They completely destroyed Mictlan's jaguars, contrary to your claim that the jaguars would prevail. I'm going to have to test Gath's giants, but I foresee a slaughter along the lines of Utgard, in terms of casualties, as a N9E9 bless would be similarly optimal for them.

In conclusion, while I think the Templars have a niche for LA Ulm, and you can definitely expand with them, I don't think they're ideal by themselves as a method of expansion, or warrant a bless strategy. They could definitely benefit and and should receive a slight 10-20 reduction in price, but I don't think it'll be too major, or will allow Templars to really flourish. They'll still be a niche unit, albeit now a more cost-effective niche unit. Really it comes down to the age old question: ghoul guardians, or black templars? When it comes down to that, guardians will win out in most situations.

tl;dr: cheaper Black Templars=good. Some Black Templars in expansion=good(?). Templars=/=anti-sacred. Ghoul Guardians>>sacreds. Ghoul Guardians>>Black Templars.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

So basically you're saying it's a bad idea because it would give something unique to Machaka?

I mean, I know it's a bit different(though not entirely unprecedented, as you mention). Frankly, Machaka can justify having a caster in relatively undefended provinces way better than Helheim or Vanheim can. After all, it's just the village witchdoctor seeing if he can disease the invading army.

It above all makes Machakan province defense unpredictable--and that might be a bad thing, admittedly. I'd personally be less likely to try and use single thugs against Machaka, knowing that there was even a 10% chance my raider would end up decayed or blinded or otherwise taken out by 1 province defense.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

No, I'm saying it's a bad idea because getting a mage for 1 gold is a bad idea.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I'm just trying to think of a way to make Machakan province defense not become an actual liability, to the detriment of the nation. There are only a few ways to make a pile of Militia useful--it seems the most elegant way to do so is to give them a caster. It's more fitting than a priest to start, or even bumping up to a better noncaster commander.

Either way, a Voice at 20 PD would do a lot of good. You might even stop routing when your first javelin barrage kills 30 of your own militia.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Well, ~30 Machakan PD killed my (unbuffed, naked) D5 Wyrm in Forge of Godhood.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

With Dom10, or without?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

You could change it so that the 1st commander is a priest and the 2nd a mage.


edit:

Some other thing - why have you made carcator so cheap?
I've always found him perfectly useable (he's basically a better demilich without the ability to cast gemcosting spells but with the ability to teleport for free on defense and practically immortal outside your dom if you let the commander carrying him return/retreat - and he can beat PD on his own unless that's focused on archers).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Call horror is now blood 2 in CBM, but before the last update it was blood 1. So you can get it pretty quick. In that game (cbm1.5) I used a f2d4b6 awake blood fountain, with the intention to go for vampires and soul contracts. Worked out well enough but If I could start over I would have used a a4d4b4 vampire queen probably.

I don´t advocate heavy use of templars anyway, but during expansion just two templars flanking makes a big difference. The thing is you can buy them right away and they don´t require undead leadership like the guardians. Past early game I´d say the templars are too expensive in most cases. So quite handy as flankers during early expansion but little else, definately not worth spending any extra points for a blessing.

Agreed 100%

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Oh, you mean lesser horrors. I thought you meant regular horrors. :x

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Can't check now, I think it was 10. Small chance it was 9. Attacking from a friendly dominion province (2 or 3 IIRC) into Machaka's cap. Ate a ton of javelins, got a limp (or crippled), and some Hoplites made it through the crowd to finish the Wyrm off.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

i wish i coulda seen that battle. :( trumanator was subbing for me that particular turn. lol.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Forgive me if I'm displaying my lack of modding knowledge, but there seems to be a lot of instances where you have #__ immediately followed by #end. Is there a reason for this? Also, when can we expect a full changelog?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

What do people think of the midget masher, now that there's been some time to use it? Has anyone bothered to use one?

I keep on thinking it'd be a great idea to put on something big, like a giant or a Basalt King. Then I realize that 22 strength -15 is only 7, and 7 doubled is only 14 damage--not enough to punch through anything's armor. Add to that it being a 2-handed weapon...why would you use it? I mean, it sounds perfect for an Ettin(now there's an idea, boost Earth by letting us summon Ettins!), but that's about the only thing that would use a Midget Masher.

Compare it to Gloves of the Gladiator, which just wrecks entire squares of troops. I think Midget Masher can be buffed to at least -10 damage instead of -15. That way you could maybe kill Militia (or Burgmeister Guards) in one hit. Armor piercing(or even armor negating) would also make a lot of sense, seeing as you are just smashing the entire square and armor doesn't really help against that.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Yeah, I also think -15 makes it a bit disappointing. I can see qm was trying to be careful not to make an overpowerful monster of a weapon, but being as it's two-handed and rather situational I reckon there's some room for increasing the damage slightly.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Its good for a fair number of SC pretenders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Could you enlighten me as to which SC pretenders? I mean, it'd be just fine for a Colossal Fetish or Cyclops or something, but it's still not as good as just putting on Boots of the Behemoth. You would need to be hitting smaller targets anyways--might as well trample multiple squares of them(and deal more damage!)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Trample will rack up your fatigue very fast. I find its useful for really any large SC chassis w/hands, such as Risen Oracle, Cyclops, Father of Winters, etc.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Does the new EA multihero actually work?

There's nothing in 2828 to say the landshape is 2829 (and vice-versa). So I suspect you'll get a 2828, he'll go on land and become a 1039, and go back in the water and become a 1038. Not that it really matters, except for the descriptions.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Ever been to Japan?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Perhaps a visual would be helpful:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1260494277

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

indeed, a visual would help. I don't see one though :P

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

really sorry man, but it doesn't work either. says its forbiddon

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Well, in that case they should all have like def 16 because of pr0 kung fu skills!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Definitely awe. They should have awe. And a new sprite.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

If that's the case, doesn't the hp reduction on Jomon's troops seem a bit racist then?

Also from a balance and thematic perspective it doesn't seem to make much sense that your average samurai is less hardy than some stock militia ...

Also Jomon troops suck enough as it is.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Exactly, Dom3 is teh racist, towards Vaetti. Get me the UN on the phone!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I don't know if that's the reason they have 9 hp. I just suspect it is. If it is then it might be nice if the description mentioned that Jomonese (not japanese) are a bit smaller than your average people, much in the same way that Ulmish are a bit brawnier.

Changing it could help Jomon's samurai I guess but there are better ways to do that. Like giving them all better morale, since they're based on samurai myths.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

QM:
Smoking Mirror is a really overpriced yet crappy pretender chassis. The chassis could cost 0 pts and it would still be bad.

Maybe drop it to 30-40 pts and increase the innate dominion to 4? It might at least be playable then (assuming you wanted to play Mictlan without a big bless).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I remember a guide stating how awesome and broken it was.

Admittedly since I don't remember who wrote the guide it could have been an effort by one of the vocal but awful players.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I think the CBM rainbow pretender buff bypassed it and made it a bad choice compared to the human pretenders, but that it's fairly nice in vanilla.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I would love someone to point out how in the world that pretender is broken. Its got a thug alternate form with only misc gear slots... if you're using your pretender as a thug you're probably doing something wrong. And its a *bad* thug - it can't even kill independents. Any independents. It dies to militia. (Later in the game when you can cast soul vortex and phoenix pyre it might be pretty awesome. Of course, then you run into like 6 Dai Oni doing the same thing...).

Micah: it would still be bad in Vanilla. For its entrance cost you could make a vanilla sage better than it in almost every way, ignoring the thug alternate form (which is pretty ignorable, since it sucks).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I believe it was a double or triple bless strat. But like I say, I can't remember who came up with it or any more details. Just that they reckoned it to be very powerful.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

You nailed it about the bless.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

So, Sombre doesn't actually believe it, he just said he saw someone else post about it. So maybe you can explain how?

D is a crappy bless for Mictlan

B6 is ok, but not great. Kind of redundant with F.

F is good.

The chassis costs 60 points, meaning you could do a bloodfountain at the same dominion with F9B6 and cost less, plus net 3 blood slaves/turn from the fountain.

Heck, you could probably use any random rainbow that gave you 2 paths you actually wanted, and be as cheap. Like great sage which has FS, both of which you want.

So i'm really not seeing it being uber for blessing. Its got only one good path, and its got a high extra path cost (for a rainbow), and a high chassis cost (for a rainbow). Since we're looking at 9 blesses, the one higher dom doesn't really save you anything because the paths will cost you more.

But by all means, explain why its so uber.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

It used to be a lot cheaper (in fact I think it was exactly what you suggested) and also started with dom 4 which made it pointless to take any other bless chassis.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

No. As the first to suggest the double bless strategy for mictlan, I have followed them since the beginning. Smoking mirror has never been the best platform for mictlan - although many have said so.

But the F9W9 is much better than D9W9 or whatever.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

So what is the best bless platform?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I like S9 from the bidet, and either F9 or F4E4.

I played one game with teh bird too, I think before the MA mictlan air patch. F9Asomething, and it was quite fun, especially once teh bird got his studying done so he could teleport around and cast Fog Warriors on my hordes.

I just can't bring myself to go W9, because it doesn't stack with Quickening.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Should the life drain attack used by rlyeh commanders, for instance, be #bonus to allow them to use weapons at the same time and avoid losing it if they lose an arm, given that they life drain using their facetacles.