Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I considered going for early VPs with my natural water access, but I figured I would already be an early-game target and didn't need to draw any more attention to myself.

Honestly, I was trying out a Baalz-style strategy, which I think makes the loss of 25 points a bit of a nonissue. The downside was my forces weren't consolidated when you came knocking so they pretty much got steamrolled piecemeal.

As I was considering it though, I think the handicaps actually might need to be a bit harder. I was testing out bless builds and a loss of 25 points is rather small change. Sure, you may have slightly worse scales or lose a bit of your bless, but it doesn't strike me as really even by any means.

I think it's a great idea, but maybe if the handicaps are somehow normalized to, say, the cost of increasing dom scales a point, rather than arbitrary values. I think one of the issues was the relative lack of bidding wars. The community seems small enough to where this may never happen extensively, so it may be better to high-ball the opening bids.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

The only reason I didn't take VPs early was for diplomacy reasons (same as Marverni). It's sort of like painting a giant target over your ball sack (you know, where you keep your soccer balls), but when Marverni took one, I decided I might as well start grabbing them or risk falling behind.

I'm taking 3 this turn, btw: 126, 101, 81.

That should be 6 VP total (1 + 2 + 3).

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debaser was having problems with the 24 hour timer, so I added 8 hours. Theoretically we should be at 40.

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Interesting that Marverni hasn't claimed any vps...

Cammorak.. I really wish we got more bids. But as we haven't I will definitely keep your feedback in mind on the next one.

Still, I do think the bids definitely changed the game: We have no mictlan, or sauromatia in the game, for example. Conversely, we do have yomi, arco, abysia, marverni - which I think is proof of concept.

Personally I think thats a huge plus.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I definitely agree that the bidding is a huge plus and an important component of the concept. What I was trying to say is that the bidding should be kept, but the starting bids should perhaps be spread out a little more. I love that it encourages all the lesser-played races as I'm always a fan of the underdog (despite playing Niefel this time).

I also think this could branch into two different concepts:
1) A bidding mechanic that keeps the games organic and relatively fresh
and
2) A set handicap mechanic that can be kind of an extension of the Endgame Diversity & CBM concept to further encourage lesser-used race play.

This is also inspiration for a Gimp game I may want to start once I'm done moving this month. All the races on the bottom of the HoF duking it out. Probably already been done, but still seems fun.

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I have another interesting question.....

Since we are manually tracking VPs rather than allowing the game to track them...

Could VPs be used as a commodity for trade? The mechanism, of course, would require said transactions to occur within the Forum chat so that they could be properly administered.

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Nope, no trading vp's.
However you can feel free to make any deals you want regarding possession of vp provinces.

Ver, I hate to sound like I'm raining on your parade - you've been a great player.
Please only report provinces when you've actually taken them.. I don't want any surprises complicating my posting. That said did you take your 3 vp this turn?

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Yes, still at 3 vps. Total should be 9 cumulative victory points as of the start of turn 34.

Turn 34 = + 3 vps (9)
Turn 33 = + 3 vps (6)
Turn 32 = + 2 vps (3)
Turn 31 = + 1 vp (1)

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I definitely want a longer clock, but I came in as a temporary sub so I didn't want to ask for one. However seeing that TwoBits also seems to be interested in a longer clock, and I haven't been able to find another sub for myself, how do people feel about a longer clock? I would prefer a 48 hour clock, but am happy to hear from people who like the status quo (32hrs?).

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I don't care.

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Yes a longer clock would be good.

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All my units and provinces are gone now. Thanks for the game. What should I do so that the turns go on without me having to send confirmation (no point now as i have 0 units)

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Hi Wilburn. Thanks for the game and hope to see you in some more.

When you are eliminated it is best to still send in your turn as normal the turn you have been eliminated. The game may still wait for you if you don't, but I am not sure of this.

I send in my 'turn after death' when I get eliminated. But you won't get another turn after that. So you are spared sending in empty turns.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

wilburn, do you have any comments about the auction method?
Hope you enjoyed the game!

+8 hr added to clock by request.

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Sorry about the late turn submission, I would have made it in by the original end time. I had to do my turn twice b/c I overwrote my .2h file. -.-

Oh well, 2nd draft is always better than the 1st I suppose. :P

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Auction method seems a fine way to get the less than often used nations a chance as they will be balanced out from a weaker starting position by having more points for a pretender. Granted this is in a given enviroment where the auction mention works as it is supposed to.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

The only problem with the auction was that there was not much of one. For most it was just the handicapping system CP decided at the beginning. There were so many powers left in the rare cases someone was outbid they did not bid again but could choose another power.

If a game was set up with few positions with those powers fixed. Say 6 or 8 then you may get more bidding/over bidding happening. But that assumes people want to play that game as opposed to quiting the bidding to play in another if the power they want gets too costly. And plenty of us simply pick the power we want to play that time rather than try and powergame with the most powerful nation we can construct.

I think this would be a very good method in a game where you know / suspect it will be over subscribed. For example if we had another mega game. It would let people get the powers they want and give some indication of how people really rate some of the powers. That didn't happen here. Good game though :) with a complete range of players from first time newbies to the most experienced.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I agree that there was no bidding because there was too much choice. Setting up fixed nation "slots", say Hinnom, Arco, Yomi, TC, Marverni, Helheim and then making people bid on each of the available slots would cause bidding, but I don't think that bidding in and of itself is the goal.

The goal, I believe, was to handicap certain nations as they have a greater probability of winning than others. Thus the idea wouldn't necessarily be to "bid" for the nations, but simply to handicap players who chose them by reducing their design points. One of the weird consequences of this game is that nations that prefer Cold/Heat get free bonus points. Of course, one would assume that such a condition would be designed to offset some inherent flaw in the race, but this does not appear to be the case. It appears, instead, to be thematic in nature. Therefore, I would propose a modification to the current handicapping system:

In addition to or in lieu of the handicaps determined by the win rate for the nation, that a number of handicap points be added to nations which require heat or cold of equal measure to the number gained by the optimal scale.

Therefore, in the addition scheme, you would take Hinnom's -25 and subtract an additional 80 points to account for free points gained from the heat scales making them, -105. Obviously a -105 penalty may no longer be appropriate as a hindrance, thus, starting with a simple -80 penalty based just on scales would probably be a better starting point. Only nations, then, that need a handicap, notwithstanding heat/cold bonus points would have any other particular handicap.

Of course, this allows for unusual circumstances like choosing Abysia with Cold+3. In this case, they should naturally get +200 points for this selection, but there is no way to account for that, so the idea here would hinge upon the nation selecting scales at variance from the already tipped scale and then determining the handicap based on that and setting a cap at the original amount of the heat/cold penalty if you follow me... I'll do an example to show what I mean:

Hinnom Prefers +2 Heat, so we'll determine Hinnom's penalty based on Heat +2 as the default scale position:

Hinnom +3 Heat: -40 Penalty
Hinnom +2 Heat: -80 Penalty
Hinnom +1 Heat: -40 Penalty
Hinnom +0 Heat: 0 Penalty
Hinnom +1 to +3 Cold: 0 Penalty

This would make adjudicating pretender design a little more intensive, but not terribly difficult.

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Yeah; with the split in the community, sadly I'm not sure we'll see another one of those.

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OK, from a magic site, I've got a castle on a VP site now. But I'm not declaring vp for it (I haven't declared vp for any VP site I've held to this point).

So, is it OK to keep this fortress as long as I don't try to claim vp from that VP site (the strategic value is debatable, but I guess it does give me some small economic boost)?

If I keep it for more than 6 turns, can my vp start to go negative?

In the regard of utility, the 5 water VP provinces obviously have less use than the one land VP ("yeah, I can build all the Tritons I want" vs "I can build national mages and troops").

Don't know where I'm going with that, just something to keep in mind. In the end, I think this game will still come down to a contest of brute strength, but the vp variable may likely add an interesting twist toward the end.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I would say that in my opinion, the restriction of "No fortifying Victory Points" is unconditional, which means you should have to destroy the castle. That's my opinion. The idea that you could fortify a victory point makes it more difficult for others to acquire it, and such is the basic purpose of the restriction, so it should not matter whether or not you are receiving VPs for the point.

The restriction is simple and clear. Unconditionally, no fortifying victory point provinces. Thus the fortress should be destroyed, unconditionally and no payment even of VPs should prevent said destruction.

That's just my opinion.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

The rules are that forts must be destroyed.
And yes, your vps will go negative if you do not.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I would like to point out that the VP's haven't been updated for several turns and should look like this:

Turn 31.....Ver..... (1)
Turn 32.....Ver..Ver (3)
Turn 33.....Ver..Ver..Ver (6)
Turn 34.....Ver..Ver..Ver (9)
Turn 35.....Ver..Ver..Ver (12)
Turn 36.....Ver..Ver..Ver (15)
Turn 37.....Ver..Ver..Ver (18)
Turn 38.....Ver..Ver..Ver (21)
Turn 39.....Ver..Ver..Ver (24)
Turn 40.....Ver..Ver..Ver (27)

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I should like to point out that I indicated more than several times now that vp's have to be reported EVERY TURN, and I've said this several times.

Ver, I'm not a player I have no way to view the map. Additionally, the self reporting is so that EVERYONE has the ability to know where they are in the game, and how close to winning everyone is.

So, if no one objects, I will update the VP's as you suggest. However, this will be the last time. vps have to be claimed everyturn.

Also, twobits, by my reading of things, six turns will be over on turn 44. Two, or anyone, let me know if its otherwise.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I must have misunderstood this instruction:

I took it to mean that you only wanted me to report the capture of a VP province, not that I should post an update to which I control every turn. For the remainder of the game, then, I shall post the number of VPs I control every turn which should create a good deal of thread clutter, which is what I had thought you were trying to avoid via this instruction.

Therefore, as the error was based on a misunderstanding of your prior instruction, there should be no reason that I should not get my VPs.

You have not said you need to report VPs every turn multiple times to my knowledge. I only found one such post in the thread and it occurred before the instruction to report only when captured. Thus, your instructions are confusing, and not my fault.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 41]]

Total: 30 points

...and as for the dispute regarding my VPs, since this is a friendly game, there's no reason we can't count it both ways, and for that matter, the game could be converted into an FFA after the requisite points are achieved, anyway, since there's no software win condition other than capture all VP points/FFA.

I vehemently maintain my position that my VPs should number 30 on turn 41.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I don't think anyone is disputing that Verjigorm. CP said that if there were no objections he had no problem with it. And i don't for the record.

But the rules have been stated and you (and Maverni) have to declare which vps you are claiming each turn. At least from now on. TwoBits should also start posting his vps if he wants them.

CP is in charge of the game and while we can all have a view on whether this form of victory is good or bad it is what it is for this game. The much of the purpose appears to be to stop anyone sneaking up on victory. It is going to be obvious and as/if you approach victory you can expect the rest of us will know and to react if we can. Is this a good mechanic? Well that's a different discussion as it IS the mechanic for this game :)

And if nothing else it will keep the thread on the first page :p

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 42]]

Total: 33 points

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 43]]

Total: 36 points

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 44]]

Total: 39 points
__________________

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

First post updated.
Two, did you destroy the fort as required?

Hows the game going for everyone? Seems like Ver is really rocking....
Any comments from Tien, Pan, or lanka?

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The fort is gone. Marverni is choosing not to declare its VPs.

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Fair enough. First post updated.

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The Tuatha would like to comment that the combination of strands of arcane power and the lightning global that Arco has cast have so far proven to be his greatest weapon. These are likely to cause each of you problems in turn, whether you fight him or no.

We wish all other nations to know that it may take longer to deprive Arco of his victory point locations than you realize. We urge you to join in bloody war immediately against the Philosopher Kings, each on his own front.

May your hearts be warm,

Tir General Staff

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Claiming 3 VPs again:

81 101 105 [[+3 VP Turn 45]]

Total: 42 points

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Additionally, one should recognize that the spear point of Tir na Nog is quite sharp, but all of the units that comprise it are made in the capitol, so the shaft of the spear is frequently much softer.

This means that since the spear point is located far from his capitol, he is currently weak and vulnerable to attack by neighbors on his other borders. If you think there's no way I can withstand the onslaught, and you know that he cannot abandon his mission to destroy me, then you know this:

1) If he takes over my lands, he will probably win the game for himself as he will be 3-4 capitols strong and holding strong positions both in and near the water.

2) Since he can't abandon his mission to defend himself, you can easily acquire provinces on his other borders.

His capitol is the sunny province of #14 in the forest between the two chains of mountains topped by castles, due northeast of the former capitol of Lanka, southeast of the capitol of Helheim, due west of the capitol of Hinnom.

The capitol of Kailasa is #206 if you were thinking of invading them. I will provide you with significant scrying data for their provinces and conduct free Stone Sphere scans of anything you like in either of these nations, just PM me! Scans of allied nations will not be given.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Hate to disappoint, Verj, but having given my heartfelt pleas for them to attack you, I'd feel a bit of a poor sport to stab them in the back now.

But, then again, I am working on my betrayal skills...

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Oh, you can't disappoint me since, as someone who obviously has almost 50% of the required victory points, I would never expect anyone who wasn't doomed, betrayed, or generally disgruntled to side with me since by doing so one virtually ensures themselves not to win. There are, however, lots of reasons to switch sides, above and beyond that which have been given. Plus, the idea that, if I am unsuccessful in my attempts to repel the alliance, that I shall at the very least stack the deck in favor of TNN's loss even though, should he succeed, he shall have a good position on winning.

This being my very first MP game, I've thought that my performance with this only briefly tested build is quite promising, though I am always thinking of ways to tweak it or alternatives. It being an Immortal Pretender Turtling strategy, I have found it quite effective at repelling the Celtic hordes, though I think next time, I should like to have more castles... Of course, if I want more castles, I should just play LA Man...

Of course one should never be pessimistic about ones own strategy... I just need to hold on for 20 turns and then success, and King of the Hill is one of the most challenging victories to pull off.... Therefore, I must reply:

Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!! All shall fall before the Blinding Light of the Grand Empress of the World, Shaula for all the heavens bow before her greatness!

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

when looking for help, its probably not wise to cast Wrath of God beforehand. I never would have attacked you if you didnt cast that global.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

The Tir General Staff assures all assembled that Tir has more than one Spearpoint. We are well aware that we cannot afford to risk ourselves entirely against the Philosophers and leave openings for a stab in the back as others husband their strength.

Our only significant casualties to date have been the result of Arco's two global enchantments. All other nations should be aware of the danger they pose.

Many of you other nations have been waiting, as we were, for others to bear the burden of war to claim the sacred VPs. I say to you now that Tir na n'Og will not bear the entire burden of war with the Philosophers, because we are aware of the larger implications. If we can easily defeat him, we may, but we will never overcommit outside our heartland.

It so happens that Arco's Capitol is located in province 97 on the north bank of the river, between two bridges to the west of the VP lake, if anyone didn't know. It was this discovery, in part that prompted our war. Arcosephale cannot allow anyone close to the VPs because his capitol is there, while we can allow help against him from any quarter, and do not need to hold the VPs.

The Philosophers also mentioned "allies." We ask all free nations to ponder the meaning of this statement. The actions of every nation shall, as Arcosephale gains VP points, reveal much. If Arco is allied with someone, and they hold VPs, can the two combine VPs for the win? I assume not. Declare a joint victory then?

*Also, I will be unable to submit turns from Saturday the 30th until the following Saturday. I have posted for a sub. If anyone knows of a possible sub, please pass this request on.*

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

The Stone Circle of Marverni wishes to say this:

We control three of the six Sacred VP Provinces (as declared by the previous Pentakrator, RIP). But we have not, and will not, declare "ownership", and thus vp's, until we have proven ourselves worthy to do so, in honest warfare (consider that our pledge!).

Arcoscephale, while we have been friendly to you in the past, your provocations of late have been grievous. More than one of our Druids, most holy to the mighty Bump of Chicken, have been slain by your foul "lightning", costing us a great deal in gold and gems (consider our anguish and frustration when we saw that important commanders with valuable gear had been slain by your folly!).

Marverni will defend its own interests of course. But do not count on us to defend you from your own mistakes - Arcoscephale, you are on your own.

The Stone Circle

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

I am off on holiday. Valerius has kindly agreed to sub for me while I am gone.

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I have sent Valerius's email address to chrispederson to change Helheim's email address while I am away.

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I had to cast it. TNN has Glamour stealth units. I need to be able to kill them even if I cannot see them. The global would not have been cast but for the attack by TNN. I realize that it is a diplomatic nightmare, but... There really isn't a better defense against strong glamour stealth units.

As for assistance, Twobits, I hadn't expected any after casting Wrathful Skies. It's not a move that I would have preferred to take, but I had no choice--without the global, TNN may very well have overrun my defenses--His thugs are rather powerful and he is using Fog Warriors. TNN, rather than electing to fight over the VP provinces in and of themselves, decided to lie to me (indicating that he had no intention of attacking) and then begin taking provinces with his glamour stealth army. While you may consider Wrathful skies a "mistake", I may have died but for it's power and that would have been a far greater mistake.

As a final note... If there were a version of Wrathful Skies that only affected provinces under white candle, that would have truly been my preference, but no such option exists. I also do not mind so much taking the current position I have as the VP accumulation would have turned everyone on me anyway eventually, and I do so very much enjoy a challenge.

20 turns until I win at present velocity... 20 turns of King of the Hill... If I succeed it will be spectacular. If I fail, t'will have been a most excellent fight!

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

...and thus you realize the crux of the problem as I have from the beginning of the game. I had, when the game started, imagined that we would all be spaced a bit further from the VP provinces, but was astounded on my first turn to realize that I would spend the entire game defending the sacred lake... Quite an interesting challenge, no?

My primary goal was to stave of discovery of this little piece of information for as long as possible. I had never imagined it would take 45 turns for that to become general knowledge. ^_^

This game is such fun, so far. I'm sure you won't disappoint me.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Email address for Hellheim changed.

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I have posted and looked for a sub. I don't have one. I will be gone on business from this Saturday, May 3 to the following Saturday June 4.

What shall I do. It would be a shame to put TNN on AI. Please advise.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

post a thread about it, not just in the "looking for subs" topic. noone checks that anyway. Be sure to include basic information about the game, for example its turns 46(not sure its actually this but its in the ballpark), you are one of the stronger nations in the game, etc.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Hell no! I don't care if you have to pause it for 7 days. :)

Of course, it's up to a majority vote I suppose.

Re: Countdown - ***Started***
 

Thanks Verjigorm, you also are a worthy opponent.

Looks like I have a sub. I believe all I have to do is send Chrispeterson the sub's email when I have it.
I'll keep you posted, because I've already sent in the last turn I can for awhile.