Re: MBT's
 

:doh:

Nah..... you wouldn't even make the top ten......although that EW line isn't anywhere near the SD line........:smirk:


:)

Re: MBT's
 

So let's tally up the score thus far over the last couple of weeks in this thread...
Me 0 :confused:
Suhiir 0 :confused:
And the winner is... EW with 2pts.!! :rolleyes:
Boy after 2011 I think we can all use a vacation! :cool:
If we can't laugh at ourselves once in a while, this just would
too much like a job, and I already have one of them!?! :happy:

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Jobs?
That's a 4-letter word, didn't your mother tell you not to use those in polite company?
Wait...
Squids and Jarheads ... we're the ones our mothers warned us about ...

Re: MBT's
 

Suhiir,
AMEN TO THAT!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Well things have been a little quite "up on in here" as they say down here. Minor change to my postings to help me keep track of some of these issues that aren't on my active list for the Patch Post Thread.
Anyway first up, Ukrainian APS and ERA that drove my OPLOT PP for both Ukraine and Thailand (Yes this is a little bit of house cleaning too.). Also in Gallery section note Poland's use of these systems for ANDERS and ROSOMAK. Last marks the progression from the T-80UM to OPLOT/YATAGAN, A VERY GOOD REFERENCE POINT FOR THE TANKS COVERED.
http://fcct-microtek.com/c_zaslon.html
http://fcct-microtek.com/b_duplet.html
http://fcct-microtek.com/a_knife.html
http://defense-update.com/features/d...tive-armor.htm
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-80U.htm
FYI-SUBMITTED FOR PP 2011/2012 SUPPORT.

Well it's been covered already about Russia's military expansion and modernization program (Not to mention major increase in arms sales.), some months ago I reported that a decision was pending by the Army to commit to ether further development of the BLACK EAGLE or T-95 which I've been tracking for two years now and constitute my first two posts to this thread. Well the result will now be the ARMATA which has a very good chance to be Russia's first non-legacy tank in a very long time. It will keep the 152mm MG with improvements. As a side note the Russian tank gun manufacturer site I've posted here in the past, is now "forbidden" for me to access...Hmmm! Anyway Prototype by 2013 and expected fielding in 2015. This tank is still under a cloud of controversy with the Asst. Deputy Director questioning the cost vs procuring advanced LEOPARDS that are now available...hope he likes his new post in Siberia!?!
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/32525/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/febru...3_1702122.html
TRACK FOR LATER SUBMISSION IN THE PP.

Well they're making it sound like the T-90S is a new tank or something however, and while maintaining it's current designation (For now.), these are actually going to be RESET T-90S tanks to fill the void until the ARMATA joins the Army. Azerbaijan has committed to buying these tanks.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/octob...1_0210111.html
TRACK FOR LATER SUBMISSION IN THE PP.

Don picked up on this from an earlier post and was looking into the MG issue I raised. MIGHT be changed if justified. This is Romania's MBT.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tr-85-mbt/
FYI

A part of the Russian arms deals mentioned. Algeria will get the
T-90C I have to verify the type against what they have already in the game.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...-turkmenistan/
VERIFY TYPE; POSSIBLE SUBMISSION TO PP.

Well if Europe doesn't want them others do...the LEOPARD PROBALY going to Indonesia.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...ces-criticism/
TRACK FOR LATER SUBMISSION IN THE PP

Tanzania getting the new TYPE-59G.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...9g_271211.html
ADD IN NEXT PP.

WARRIOR upgrade program. I had a question about this and Don responded as it's covered in the game, I believe a new picture and ICON was needed however. I don't remember if this ref was a part of that question or just my poor "housekeeping" anyway it'll be gone in a minute.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...4df6d89509dbc9
FYI.

This is what happens to some tanks, in this case most to all of the Swiss LEOPARD tanks, they are being converted to the BPz 3 BUFFEL (BUFFALO) ARV and being sold to Canada. See contract section.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-canada-03208/
FYI.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Before I post this update concerning the the RESET upgraded T-90S, I must apologize to whdonnelly (Will) and some others, I was asked to provide any additional information I had concerning the SCIMITAR MKII, See Pg. 17 Posts #165 & #166, as these were RESET units with significant upgrades I said I would enter these on my next Patch Post. Unfortunately I will offer no other reasons except that I simply forgot to do it. However rest assured that it will be item one on the MBT list for the 2012/2013 campaign, this came up as a result of the next item. I do want to point out that I actually recieved a couple of PMs concerning my post on the SCIMITAR MKII as well, it's the only piece of equipment that I've said or have put on the PP lists for submission to generate that kind of interest, more for sentimental reasons I think. And why not it's better protected and has already saved lives, see the last two refs below. So again my apologies and here's some more info for you.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/unite..._pictures.html
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/29625/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/novem...2_0811112.html
Pic:
Attachment 11741 Attachment 11742

Attachment 11743

Alright now here's the update for the T-90S RESET it will apparently be faster with a modified new engine, have both a new FCS and ERA that was mt for the T-95, with other refinements as well. I think it safe to consider this MBT much like the new Turkish LEOPARD-2T (Or "NG" Next Generation by commercial name.) the final stepping stone for the Turks to the ALTAY and for the Russians to the ARMATA. We'll soon get a look at the T-90S RESET at the end of the month in India.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/33309/

DON'T DROP THE BALL ON THIS AGAIN!! For 2012/2013 Campaign.
:capt:

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

First a little self incrimination; I had and knew this :pc: information already and even reported on it in an earlier post on pg.17 :doh: :banghead the "new" RESET T-90S is the T-90MS. Again the end notes are reminders to my self as I ready myself for the 2012/2013 campaign. This next site gives us our first real good look at the T-90MS as displayed last Sept. It'll be 1500kg heavier then current T-90 variants in the Russian Army bringing the weight up to 48 tons, the carousel loaded 40 round 125mm 2A46M-5 has been modified to the point it will have increased range, a new FCS, a "newer" modified version of the RELIKT ERA, APS, RWS MG with range to 1500m, improved weapons storage to increase crew survival and more you'll just have to read on it. What I want to see is whether or not any more modifications are made from this when shown in India at the end of the month. There have been rumors that a deal is in the making with India to upgrade their T-90S tanks to the MS standard, both sides deny this, and India wasn't happy with the way the Russians have treated them over the T-90S situation as I've posted on here earlier from the BROADSWORD site. And India is committed to the ARJUN and FMBT Programs as well plus the fact the Army's modernization program is reduced per the ref below last. Also this confirms for me this the bridge to the ARMATA.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._pictures.html
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120217/171360722.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...air-force.html
TRACK AND ADD.

2. Russia to also make improvements to 170 T-72B MBTs to include a new ERA (RELIKT), FCS, COMMS and engine. They've modified a tank plant just for this purpose. I believe this more an upgrade then RESET program and yes there is a difference. I would look to the
T-90MS for the FCS and COMMS equipment.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...b_0903123.html
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120217/171360722.html
TRACK AND ADD.

3. Update on the Algerian tank deal; the T-90C is not in the OOB but they have the T-90S. So the T-90C (As posted earlier with a newer ref.) will be a...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/febru...a_1802122.html
TRACK AND ADD.

4. The Indonesian Govt. is starting to sound like the Indian Govt.
now; Is it the LEO or not (It is now, I think!)? The Dutch had the inside track but...Is it the Dutch or the German LEO's? Somebody please make up your mind, that felt good and here's the update.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...r_1003121.html
TRACK AND ADD.

5. Peru in pursuit of a newer and heavier MBT originally chose the Chinese MBT-2000 to fill the need, however, yes they changed their mind. They've decided after extensive tests between the LEO 2A6, OPLOT T-84, T-90S and MBT-2000, to go with the T-90S as it was felt it better suited the terrain and could afford to spend a little more. The T-90S will replace the Peruvian T-55 tanks which was considered for an upgrade, however their neighbors are going bigger and better..
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...u_1303124.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=58
TRACK AND ADD.

6. And on those :censor: :eth T-72 tanks from the Ukraine, I've managed to identify the type as the T-72AG. The "when" is still a mystery. I'll keep at it.
TRACK AND ADD...SOMEDAY!

Well if I don't show any progress on my other hobby, I might find myself "IN THE DEEP DARKS" with CINCLANTHOME!?!

It's sooo good to know the 2012/2013 campaigh is already off to an early start for me!?! :rolleyes:

Enjoy your weekends!!!!!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

My God already back checking data and this is a "zinger" but might save unnecessary work later ;). It seems we have a Russian cyrillic language issue, which indicates that the T-90S and T-90C are one in the same! Wait for it, it gets better the T-90S/C is also sometimes referred to as the T-90E as well on the net, though not "officially". And you wonder why some of us get frustrated out here dealing with this stuff. The following is representative of many I've found addressing this issue. It's also again a darn good site. See the Variant section second para. Go to a Russian site such as Army Guide that I use and you'll pull up the T-90C. Maybe one of our friends from St. Peters-burg can chime in and confirm this.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-90S.htm

So no new tanks for Algeria just T-90S for NOW per OOB.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

IDF fielding a new defensive ATGW system. Sounds like a sense, point and shoot system such as the LEOPARD-2T, ARJUN MKII and other newer MBTs are getting equiped with and or upgraded too now. Will keep an eye on it.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56

Did I mention the LEOPARD-2T and ALTAY above? They both look great in 6.0! The work seems to have paid off, GREAT JOB EVERYONE!!! What you thought I'd wait to Christmas!?! Get outta heerre! Good Night EVERYONE!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Will/whdonnelly and PM others,
If you haven't already looked, check the UK OOB UNITS 635 & 636. You'll find Christmas came early, while I was browsing through a couple of OOBs, somebody fixed my missed "oops" and saved me some work. Don the SCMITAR MKII looks good all the way around. Thanks for the "pick up" on those units. As CINCLANTHOME would say, I can now "give your (my) brain a rest"!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Thanks, to you and whoever else helped, that's good stuff!
Will

Re: MBT's
 

OOB EQUIPMENT UPDATE: As I've done in the past, I try my best for any equipment submitted in a Patch Post and as refs become available to update it's status if game entered. This helps validate my ref sources and other info submitted for a piece of equipment. Now you know the why (And you won't see that again!:rolleyes:) So... Turkish ALTAY on track game fielding date 1/2016 is right on target.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tim...&NewsCatID=345

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBTs
 

Well for those that have been following along in the Patch Page Thread I had a question concerning weapons rng. (4,000m+) and the TI/GSR to match that ability. We know the Max. TI/GSR is 50 held by the Merkava 4/4b. I openly eluded to 3 OOB's, 3 MBTs and 1 IFV. I indicated more time to evaluate the information was needed and I am now prepared to present my findings w/% of certainty of increasing the TI/GSR to a minimum of 50 and adding to the list.
1. USA M1A2 SEP V2 and the current BRADLEY. 100%
2. Russia T-90MS (Also test bed for the ARMATA.) 100%
3. ARJUN MKII 95%
ADD:
Some of these are based on the fact that delays in some programs can be linked with technologically advances made during the delays for an improved weapons platform for any branch of service.
4. Turkey ALTAY 100%
5. Russia ARMATA 100%
These next two are under rated except by what the publications say about them. I believe based on their lack of "history" in this area there's a bit of a bias out that goes contrary to what they write about these tanks.
6. South Korea K2 85-90%
7. Japan TYPE 10 (TANK X.) 85-90%

I've already posted on all these and the info is throughout the thread. Don will get more specifics info later in the Fall if needed.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...834/#more-2834
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/34936/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/index...k=view&id=5230
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....59049-t-90-ms/
http://en.rian.ru/video/20120329/172467162.html
http://defense-update.com/20120329_i...expo-2012.html
Will have to post later the info I have that the USA 2ND HBCT already fully been reequipped with the M1A2 SEP V2 and improved BRADLEY, site is done for maintenance.

Re posting this site for you designers.
http://www.the-blueprints.com/

MODIFY UNITS AS NEEDED.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Here's the article showing that the USA 2nd HBCT (Heavy Brigade Combat Team.) is operating with the new M1A2 SEP V2 and improved
M2A3 BRADLEY. The improvement allows for positive target identification from ~3000m+ currently to ~4000m+ and as noted the optics/FCS has now caught up the capabilities of the ammo at over 4000m lethality. I will be posting soon that the current U.S. TOW is in final evaluation status with much improved optics/FCS as well. The range has also been increased to double the current advertised range, it might be fielded this or early next year.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...aded-vehicles/

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I need to step back on my last two posts and point out what factors I'm looking at to get to the assumptions of why those tanks listed thus far and to be listed below should probably have their TI/GSR ratings increased to 50. So what are my baselines? Well first off the MERKAVA 4/4b a tank well discussed in the past in this forum that has caused a person or two to get banned for their "over enthusiasm" on the topic at the time, but as most agree is a very formidable weapon and easily in the top ten in the world as are some of the ones listed already and to come below. The other is now the M1A2 SEP V2 so I have a baseline of known MBTs and capabilities. What are those capabilities? Simply this can the tank identify a target out to ~4000m+ and can it hit it using either conventional ammo or missiles if so equipped or with both. I will list a tank below that I thought without even looking would easily have made it into the group however, it can only identify a target to 2500m with a target recognition range of 5000m. I hope you caught the difference in terms and recognize what each means. I don't presume to know the criteria that Don has used, this is an independent study if you will of the information I (As well as you can find.) have found through my sources. Now you know how I got there and here's the rest...
8. UK CHALLENGER 2 with TOGS II ~2006 @ 100%.
9. UKRAINE OPLOT M @ 100%.
10. GERMANY LEOPARD 2 A7+ @ 100%. Note: The late model A6 versions are unknown at this time and to further complicate matters the latest foreign versions as well though off the top of my head I suspect the Swiss and Swedish versions might be in play(?).
11. France LECLERC @ 0%. The last known upgrade was ~2006+ with a second generation system as described above coinciding with one of the refs as supplied below. Second generation I know limits the TI/GSR to 40 unless additional info is found, this was discussed between Don and myself concerning a couple of tanks about two years ago (M60T?) in the Patch Page Thread.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leclerc/
So this is my work list, some might be in the game already others as noted require a further look as this is preliminary at this time.
And before it gets brought up, China from what LITTLE is out there is at mid level second generation at best for now.

VERIFY AND SUBMIT MODS AS NEEDED.

If I hurry I can get ~6hrs before work, sooo much better then when I was on the (das) boat!?! Have a great day all!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt: He sails on again!! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

The news keeps coming so along with it the work list to some extent...

1. About ARJUN MKII I agree with the updated start date. I might be looking at a date change for ARJUN though, but I'm not ready to "pull the trigger" on that yet and not here either. But some issues have come up. The big one being Russia is trying to push the T-90MS over the ARJUN MKII. As you might or not remember the Indian Army set up a head to head competition between the ARJUN and T-90S (Platoon or Company of each, can't remember.) over a period of a month with the surprising result (It performed better then expected by it's Army supporters and Developers.) re-soundly beat the T-90S in all categories. The push is for the same with the updated versions of each. Thus far the ARJUN MKII is doing very well in the current evaluation process that included ~100 upgrades all together.
Also LAHAT and TROPHY addressed here.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...n-mark-ii.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2...2_0705121.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...d-t-90-at.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...e_0204122.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...m_0504122.html
THE FOLLOWING IS FROM THE INDIA MOD ARJUN TIMELIME JUST SEE THE HEADLINES FOR MY CONCERNS WITH MKI DATE. MORE ON WHY AND WHAT HAPPENED LATER.
http://www.india-defence.com/focus-14
TRACK FOR MODS.

2. Keeping the only plant open in the U.S for tank production, don't worry Congreess stepped in on this one.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/34981/
FYI.

3. RTA COS reviews the OPLOT though I must say it looks like the "M" to me as we discussed was a possibility when I submitted it for 6.0 and I see provision is already in place should it be.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...y_2303122.html
TRACK TYPE & FYI.

4. Iran equipping ZOLFAGER with new FCS. Also I believe the ZOLFAGAR 2 is in the game and should be deleted as it's only a prototype test bed.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...rmainbattleta/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...l_1204121.html
MOD ZOLFAGAR 3 w/FCS DELETE ZOLFAGAR 2.

5. This caused a stir in India.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...ary-Weaknesses
FYI.

6. Russia scrapping a lot of "T's" from the Army. Dates could be an issue here for current inventory in both the Army and OOB.
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120323/172346264.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57
TRACK & FYI.

7. The push is on for the SAF to find a new tank. I believe last year I noted they were looking into LEO 2A4, T-90S, OPLOT and one other that escapes my mermory now, but should in this thread. This still comes from the "You think!" catagory. The OILFANT is to under gunned and thin skinned for the neighborhood it's surrounded by.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=55
FYI & TRACK.

8. Armor and Jets going into storage in Austrialia, yep budjet cuts again.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...ania&Itemid=66
FYI.

9. Indonesian human rights issues could stop sell of Dutch LEO to that country.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
TRACK & FYI.

10. Italian CENTAUROS to Russia? Could happen they have already ordered the LMV (See MRAP Thread.).
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120512/173407220.html
TRACK & VERIFY Italian GUN TYPES.

As of 1 JUNE I'm shutting down the "news" side of things in all "my" threads to focus on the Patch Page inputs. As many know, if you have an issue or piece of equipment you want looked into, I'll answer and do my best to help. So it begins (Not that it really ended.) this news format was intended to help me stay organized and it gives you a view of my work list and how things change. Update #1 HELOS 3/4 done from last year to now. Jets will be next with VISION issues to be asked and hopefully addressed as SNIPER, LITENING and Russian and Chinese systems are prolific now. That's just one mans thoughts. So I'm ready for Don too be :tough: :mad: :re: but hopefully :rolleyes: :) once in awhile as long as I don't do too much of these
:doh: :banghead: :pc: :deadhorse: well one can hope anyway ;)!! So to start the 2012/2013 Campaign I promise NO EQUIPMENT INPUTS FOR NEW ZEALAND!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

i havent been here for a long time and now i saw a pm regarding some questions about merkava. i looked around the thread and saw some heated discussion. if someone can write shortly what the main points of content were, i will try and help. ofcourse my intimate knowledge is with the Mk II, not with the merkava mk IV. But i have seen them operate and i know very very well the tactical ideas behind the design.

Re: MBT's
 

Well welcome back then! The hot topic of two years ago now I believe, had to do with how many combat troops the MERKAVA was able to carry internally. As I recall the number ranged from 2 to 8 combat troops depending on who chimed in on the topic and the source material presented. I think I settled on 6 even though I presented info that indicated 8 as well. When that was addressed in the 5.0 or 5.5 Patch the carry went from 0 to 4which seems a reasonable solution to the issue pending further definitive information. See Patch Page Thread Post #3 Item M4. Also see the MERKAVA Thread currently resting on Page 5 of TO&Es. More recently and in the last couple of posts I used the MERKAVA and the newest version of the ABRAMS M1A2 SEP V2 to start a conversation/investigation on other tanks whose vision should be increased to 50 (Like the MERKAVA currently.) based on known current FCS on board those other tanks.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Ok...So, i can accurately reply about the merkava mk II, and if i makae mistakes, they will be very minor and the result of changing my position and not having been in a merk for some 4 years now.

The "corridor" or "back-corridor", as we call the rear entrance of the merkava was originally installed to allow easy bail-out for tank crews. it replaced bailing out from the turret hatches, and allows the crew to mount/dismount the tank quickly and without climbing up and being exposed to enemy fire. this is effective to the point that in the Mk IV, the quick mount drill is done by the rear corridor, not by hatches.

to the left and right of the corridor are the main ammo stocks, made of 12(im almost certain about this, if im wrong dont kill me), 4 round milspec-fire resistant polymer cases. they are capable of being assembled and dissassembled, so you can choose to have more or less ammo cases. in maximum capacity they hold, as noted 12X4 round=48. in addition 6 rounds are carried in a rack just under and to the left of the gun, near the loaders legs. these are used for quick loading, with the 4 round cases in the back used to refill the 6 round rack or if needed load to the gun. There is also a possibilty, almost always used for white phosphorus rounds, to stack rounds in the lower front area of the hull, just outside the turret ring, in(up to 3) removable 2 round up-right polymer cases. this is meant for the WP, which is far more accurate if allowed to stand upright before firing, for technical reasons i cant be arsed to spicify right now.

so, the corridor is placed in the center rear of the hull, with 6 4 round packs to eahc side. it is roughly(dont take me to court) 1.6-1.75 meters long, and allows a man to more or less lay, allthough probably will have to bend his knees to fit in properly. it would be a hard press for 4 infantry troops to fit there, and almost impossible if you consider their gear. I would say 2 easily with full gear, 3 with some of the gear in the rear outside storage. 4 would be possible, but so severly unconvinient that they would arrive half dead to the combat area. i think in the merkava 4 its a little roomier, so i imagine they could do 4 guys with some discomfort and alot of good will.

but! the ammo stocks can be very easily removed, and with one side removed you could have 24 rounds left in the tank and easily carry 6 men or maybe more. with all rear ammo removed you can fit in two strectchers with wounded and 2-4 medical team. so lets assume for the best mix of troop and ammo(Mk II), you could have only 24 rounds in the rear+6 ready to fire+6 in upright cases=total 36! and still carry 6 men easily in the back. 36 rounds aint that bad. i would assume(although i dont know for sure), that the same is true for mk IV, only probably less rounds, possibly 24-26, because 120mm is bigger.

hope this clears some things up.

Re: MBT's
 

Yes this helps and backs up the points that were brought up as the topic was being addressed in the MERKAVA Thread from the crew issues, ammo reduction and a couple of others related to trying to get the numbers to work in fact I believe the picture I submitted in Patch Page Post #5 shows 4 soldiers exiting the MERKAVA IV while it's engaged. It sounds like 4 is reasonable to you as well? Also I thought the MERKAVA IV is about a meter longer then previous Mks as well, but would need to go back and check to make sure.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

From another IDF tanker see the photos related to this current discussion scroll down to -1/2 to 3/4+ down these are the best interior shots of the MERKAVA I've seen to date and read the captions please. A very interesting site, however, to maintain full combat capabilities I'm thinking let's leave well enough alone, Don has struck the right balance here. To further specialize these tanks for combat troop operations would for now take up precious equipment slots. However who here doesn't think I'll revisit this in the 2019/2020 campaign? Well those that answered wrong haven't been paying attention, it's paper filed now as well.
http://www.supervideo.com/MXCD-ROMOS.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

what weapons slots need be taken? the weapons that do not fit in the slots are the 0.5 M2HB and the 60mm mortar. The mortar is nearly useless for SPMBT use, the way it is used by tank crews is irrelevant in the game. the 0.5(12.7mm) was originally placed on the Merks for training, but later was found to be usefull for operations in urban terrain such as gaza. in a realy war, even a small scale one like lebanon, the 0.5 is usually removed or at least not used.Winspmbt is not a tank simulator, and there are many weapons used by the tank crew its simply cannot simulate with only 4 slots. other than the 12.7mm and the 60mm, dont forget that we also use handgrenades at short ranges, white phosphurs smoke grenades to attack close range infantry, and even our personal rifles if needed, fired from the commanders hatch. This is not improvisation, i am talking about drills by the book. the game cannot simulate all this.

actually as merkava commander the stranest thing for me is that in the game, a tank cannot run over infantry. cant tell you how many times i was thinking to my self that a pesky inf unit in the same hex as one of my tanks would have simply been run over and pivoted to death in real life.this is also a drill in the idf, which the game cannot simulate.

Re: MBT's
 

Acording to Military today.....no

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/merkava_mk3.htm

Hull length 7.97 m
Width 3.72 m
Height 2.66 m



http://www.military-today.com/tanks/merkava_mk4.htm

QUOTE" The latest Merkava Mk.4 is slightly larger than the Mk.3. "

and these are the dimensions they give.....

Hull length 7.6 m
Width 3.72 m
Height 2.66 m

They also claim the Mk 3 holds 50 rounds. It's why getting the "right" info is a challenge sometimes

Don

Re: MBT's
 

as i recall from the few times i was in a merkava mk IV, the corridor is actually the same length or slightly shorter than previous models. it is however slightly wider and taller.

Re: MBT's
 

I was talking about equipment slots as in adding additional tanks to the OOB. We understand about the weapons slots as I was educated on this by others out here (Thank You!) on the limitations when I first started submitting equipment to the game. I remember getting hung up on that when I submitted the Turkish M60T (SABRA variant.) concerning the 60mm mortar. I'm more concerned about TROPHY being back fitted to the MERKAVA III series (BAZ) as it appears that program has been accelerated based on yesterdays website posting, that means they've finished with the MERK IV back-fits as well. To the length issue, I saw that last night as well from that and other sites, couldn't remember for sure without checking back myself. Will have to look into the TROPHY issue though.
It looks like the monsoon season will be extended this year!?! :rolleyes: ;)

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

ahhhh. i get what you say.

Re: MBT's
 

Well everyone seems to have survived Beryl, just a lot of yard work earlier between the rain. Anyway this what's left of my MBTs...
1. Already reported on the new M1A2 SEP V2 as an ADD, this is the VISION 50 TI/GSR version. So it follows that the now called
M1A2 SEP V1 would be converted (Probably a as time allows game name change to be submitted?). So a possible end date change should be DEC. 2014 or JUN 2015 which allows for a seven month program delay or our "swag". lower LEFT FOR REF INFO SOURCE (GD.).
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_2430.html
ADD SEP V2 FOR SEP MODIFY NAME AND CHANGE END DATE.

2. As reported yesterday in the APC Thread, Columbia after a couple of years, is again up for consideration by Israel to be the MERKAVA's FIRST foreign customer.
TRACK.

3. If you've been following along in this thread and the Patch Page one, I'll be submitting several tanks for vision increases to 50 based on published and manufacturer info. Some tanks didn't make the list because of the use of 2nd GEN FCS which is limited to 40 TI/GSR. LECLERC fell into this category, which frankly surprised me me at the time. Does it make it a bad tank? NO IT DOESN'T, one reason is that the FCS (Now I fall back on memory.) can track and target six tanks within I believe a minute-that's decent fighter poop there! And here's another for the same reason from a respected site covering that country out of the UK.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type99-system.asp
FYI.

Well that was easy enough, and I just recieved a message from my Comm CTR. that the rains are letting up and those TYPE 99's are approaching my Thai troops sector with heavy mech. infantry support. Have to get to the CP before Gen. AI hits me with his arty.
He likes his arty! ;)

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I want to now finish out this thread with the last of the work list items.

1. Sweden also adding EVO to STRV 122 as noted in the last APC Post concerning the CV-9040.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=457
http://www.haaland.info/armour/index...-stridsvagn122
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/35969/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...d_0706121.html
http://www.ibd-deisenroth-engineerin...evolution.html
ADD.

2. IDF changing armor tactics.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...echnique-tanks
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/35908/
FYI.

3. It never hurts, as new people come in and old ones misplace it!?!
I'll keep it, don't worry, be happy! Sounds like it could be a song!?! :rolleyes:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n0534/lsn1.htm
FYI.

4. Scandinavian Armour site.
http://www.haaland.info/armour/
FYI.

5. Tanzania TYPE-59 modernization should be completed now. Based on this as dated it was nearing completion. Reported on this earlier in the thread in Post 205 pg. 21 when started, work done by the Chinese.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=55
MODIFY/ADD.

6. Morocco requesting U.S. assistance to upgrade it's M1A1 tanks to M1A1 SA level. We'll do it too...any betters out that we won't!? ! :)
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Morocco-07435/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...s_2006123.html
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...-abrams-tanks/
TRACK/MODIFY.

Tank news/work list now completed.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Alright now I know of about three people out here when they get wind of this are going to start clamoring to get the ANDERS in the game again. However this is a cautionary tale when words like "expected" are used. Well "I'm not asleep at the switch" yet and as some know I've been tracking the ANDERs development for sometime. I would expect these to be the NATO spec ANDERs with the RAUG 120mm or the Belgain CMI CT-CV 105mm. We'll see. Well guess what? Tracking it still...
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ombat-vehicle/

And a bonus for Don and all the rest...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/augus...k_0308122.html

And since some are having an ERA moment...the MK II ERA is of an advanced gen NERA type which is very effective against TANDEM warheads (TOW, RPG-29 etc.) The ERA adds about 2.5 tonnes (Olympics in the UK sorta thing.) which is included in the overall weight and is also mounted on the side skirts as well.

Gotta see a man about a flat top, watch some more of the OG and have a wonderful day at work!?! Everyone have a wonderful weekend!

Well the ref did say "tanks" and of different varients, I think part of this could include the heavier stuff like the Dutch LEO's, the Indonesian deal fell through, however, the recent deal with Germany didn't.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Because information is sometimes perishable even on the net, I better put a status on this for the 2013/2014 campaign. So with the above post on the ANDERS MBT I'll add the following...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/augus...s_0608126.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/belgi...ment_prod.html

In the first ref is a picture of the ANDERS MBT from EUROSTATORY 2012. Note the simulated firing of the FALARICK ATGM in the picture. These Medium tanks will also be equipped with Israels TROPHY System.
TRACK/ADD

Here's some news to help clear the que all FYI...
1) TROPHY beats off another ATGM attack, so far since being equipped with it the IDF TROPHY 6 ATGM/RPG 0, that should be about right...
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56

2) Something I've had my eye on for over a year now, getting even more interesting last month, it'ds here for a reason you'll just have to read for yourselves...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Saudis-06993/

3) ARJUN MKII, we'll just wait but, they're saying it'll be ready sooner. However like someone else I know date changes can be a PITA and we've changed this one twice already I believe. I'm good to leave it alone until we get closer.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...arjun-mkii-mbt

4) OPLOT-M gets the "tech" treatment at last...
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...e-tank-ukraine/

5) Does this mean Russias new MBT the ARMATA is in trouble and will go the way of the BLACK EAGLE or T-95? I don't think so for now anyway as the Russian Army for the most part seems to think it's time to go in a new direction with a new design...
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120703/174384885.html

6) Taiwan wants 200 new tanks, where will they come from. A prediction if we don't do it maybe a look will be given to the Ukraines OPLOT-M. Thailand is very happy with theirs and they would hold their against anything China has now.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...bt-purchase-us
http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_...s_2307124.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Posting this now as the site pulled it from their archives based on the contract news of the past week, This will save sometime later. This will be my last on ANDERS until the contract gets signed,
http://www.armyrecognition.com/polan...res_video.html

I made mention of this in the previous post concerning the Russian cuts in R&D and offered my thoughts concerning the ARMATA, here's an update and a little something extra...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/augus...3_0908121.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._pictures.html


Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I seem to remember a few +months back I believe someone (Don?) asked a question concerning smoke grenades for tanks and their effectiveness. I think the question was settled as I recall relating to coverage area and range. Below is the info as it applies to the VARTA system as equipped on the OPLOT. This will either reinforce the answers given then (To include mine.) or cause maybe a closer look and slight adjustment. Key points are highlighted.

http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/index.php

SPECIAL PROTECTION MEANS

Optronic countermeasures system

To improve the tank protectability, the Varta optronic countermeasure system is integrated in the tank.

The optronic countermeasure system provides:

•confusing of the guidance systems of ATGM by putting out laser jamming covering the horizontal plane of ±18° relative to the main gun tube and ±2° in the vertical plane
•jamming of the ATGM guidance systems that use laser illumination of targets, semi-automatic laser guided homing projectiles as well as artillery systems equipped with laser range-finders by activating the remote fast-deploying aerosol screens in a sector of ±45° relative to the main gun tube
Optronic jamming station

Time of readiness 6 h (unlimited in combat conditions)
Time of uninterrupted operation 6 (в боевых условиях не ограниченно)
Sector of setting the light interferences relatively the gun:
in elevation ±2 degrees
in azimuth (relative to the gun barrel axis) ±20 degrees

Aerosol screen laying system

Mode of operation automatic, semiautomatic, manual
System reaction time in auto mode less than 0.5 s
Coverage sector by four laser emitters:
in azimuth 360 dg
in elevation -5 to +25 dg
Qty of launchers 12
Grenade caliber 80 mm
Screen laying range at least 50 m
Applicable grenade:
time for laying the screen not more than 3 s
average area covered by a grenade 10x15 m
effective screen duration time 60 s

A little news...
1. As the picture shows the MERKAVA tank deal for Columbia is now dead. Columbia was to have been the first export customer for the MERKAVA.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=58

2. Indonesia's LEO deal with the Dutch has ended as well. However the LEO A6 is the MBT of choice. It should be somewhat easy to figure out where they are getting them from, if not it'll be on the Patch Post.

3. TROPHYS all around!! Well if your a MERKAVA. They are actually moving at a rapid pace to get them installed on all their MBTs. B)The next is more see what happens when "Can't we all just get along?". C) A little something about a pulse cannon.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_...n_1307124.html

4. Well the next isn't the best image I've seen of the ARJUM MKII, hopefuly it'll go up from here. Evaluations are on going as of late June/early July.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/augus...a_1808124.html

Have a great weekend!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I've been doing some research concerning the Warsaw Pact that will represent my first Patch Post. While conducting that research I came across this CIA assessment of Soviet tanks, possible use against NATO, composition of Soviet and Warsaw Pact countries to include Non Soviet Warsaw Pact (NSWP) and more. Along with the USA field recognition document posted again below as well, you designers ought to have variable "field day" with this info. The first and others I'll use for the Patch Post come off the Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) CIA website. They are in PDF format though they have another format available but you'll have to go to the site for that. Also if using PDF, USE THE DOCUMENT PAGE NUMBERS-NOT THE PDF ONE, that's because the first pages are blank where routing info and notes would've appeared. These refs compliment each other though there are five years in difference between them. Oldest first. Enjoy!
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261345.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n0534/lsn1.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

The McMahon Line was established almost a hundred years ago and has been disputed over since, it lead to a border war 1962 between India and China and there have been other incidents since. This area is still considered "hot" even today between them. China has been spending huge amounts of capital in infrastructure both in rail and road transport. China has had some "firsts" in this area themselves in troop deployments but more importantly military exercises (Which Broadsword has covered in detail as well.), but for me this is about India's push for and desire to attain the T-90MS (Which is on my list.) and the first time armor has been deployed to this area as described, for some this is good reading, for others this could be a "catalyst" for a scenario or campaign Note also in the article the armor unit formation data which might be of some use as well.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/asiav...orial_disputes
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...to-defend.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...ing-china.html

Thought about the scenario etc. forum but it didn't seem to fit there, so enjoy the tank talk. But like the MMRCA,CH-47F, To SPA OR NOT (They just cancelled a 4th tender, though they managed to get down to 2 contenders this time.), AH-64D "LONGBOW" and finally the ARJUN II we might see the T-90MS...SOMEDAY!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I was using these as part of a "research" project I was working on. I did not want to waste these resources so I intend to post them on both the Jets and Planes...and MBT Threads. The information has been verified by history and newer documents released from other sources. They serve to both inform and to assist the game designers out there. Posted twice as not everyone has the same shared interests.
The below are from the CIA, released ten to twenty years later from date of the reports, classified Secret to Top Secret. All are PDF formatted.
CIA AIR...
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261313.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000278545.pdf
CIA LAND/AIR...
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0001099668.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261340.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261345.pdf

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I consider interesting that CIA judgment about czechoslovak tank force was about 2000 tanks less than in reality. There were 4585 tanks in 1st July 1988 and that number is without several hundreds of T-34 still in storages but officially disbanded and waited for scrapping.

Re: MBT's
 

It's one reason why old documents/reports like this should be be taken with a grain of salt. 25 year old "intelligence analysis" is only useful as a curiosity.

When we started this project, these type of things were all we had to work from which is why OOB work continues to be an ongoing project and why people dig up "weird" errors sometimes


Don

Re: MBT's
 

That report was one of the older ones posted but dealt with total force units by the countries without accounting for the Soviet tank divisions within a country which in some cases would easily double or +triple the number of tanks in any given Warsaw Pact country. What was important in posting these documents was the fact that the strategic and tactical planning and the overall types of equipment involved in carrying out those plans has been shown by later Russian released documents and ones from other sources (Governmental and or Military.) have in most cases supported that analysis. But the bottom line here is generally speaking this isn't a game of how many as much as what equipment and tactics. For that reason it was posted as a tool for game designers and a reasonable start point for equipment and general information, I.E. how interesting would it be to play East Germany with Russian T-80 tanks involved, which ware only posted there. Poland even had some Russian equipment that was unique to there as well as in Czechoslovakia to support the mission requirements of those fronts.
But as Don has pointed out yet again if the documentation isn't thoroughly read through, incomplete, or from dubious sources and or is otherwise misunderstood as happened to me in looking into the Warsaw Pact as will be discussed below, these issues cause long term game equipment problems, because the other item Don didn't mention is how much equipment got into the game while in the developmental stages or just because some blog or other started with "I heard (Or saw somewhere that...) that...". I would take the time to read it all as I did and see how time and better Intel changed some of the data and note the transition from the offensive mindset to the defensive one of the mid 80's.

This issue has come up in the past here in the "East German OOB" Thread and other places and references (To include the USA among others.) of did East Germany operate the T-62. Though the thread used overall some "lesser" sources but provided the majority of the data, and though far from perfect myself, I dug into a matter further to get the "final answer" (Yeah right!?!). So I directly contacted the German National Tank Museum which is run both by the city of Munster Germany and the BUNDSWEHR it is located on the site of the BUNDSWEHR Officer and NCO Armor training grounds and school...

T-62 MBT‏
9/20/12 Reply ▼Reply
View profileTo panzermuseum@munster.de
From: patrick conklin ()
Sent: Thu 9/20/12 2:33 AM
To: panzermuseum@munster.de

Good Morning!
I've been doing some research I whether or not the DDR NVA was equipped with the Soviet T-62 MBT. Except for a U.S. Army field recognition training manual supported by JANES (1990/1991) of Soviet/Warsaw Pact Armor, the preponderance of evidence suggests that only Soviet Forces stationed in the DDR used them. So I felt the matter was settled until, I came across a well known European travel guide online service that supposedly shows what's described as a "Soviet made T-62 tank that was in the service of the East German Army". I could not make out the nationality marking on the turret, though the tank numbers look Soviet to me. Can you clarify this for me? Was the NVA equipped with the T-62 MBT?
I hope you can help as I know you are the German National Tank Museum. Thank You for your time and patience!! If you reply please do so in a separate email as some replies seem the get "redirected" before getting to me.
Have a Great Day!!

Regards,
Pat Conklin USN/SS Ret.
"Im Unterseekraftstolz läuft tief! Aber mit jenem gleichen Stolz vergessen wir nie um unsere Kameraden noch auf ewiger Patrouille."

The bottom line full final response...

AW:‏
10/16/12 Reply ▼Reply
From: Ralf Raths (@deutsches-panzermuseum.de)
Sent: Tue 10/16/12 7:29 AM
To: patrick conklin

Hi Pat,
I answer your mail regarding the T-62 – that’s more my field than Julias.
You’re right – the T-62 was never officially issued to the Nationale Volksarmee. This is the reason why this tank has the Red Star as a marking and not the sign of the GDR.
So, organisationally it doesn’t belong in this area, but of course no tank museum would be complete without showing this design, so we placed it inside the row of T-models to show the big leap in gun technology.

Best wishes
Ralf Raths

I hope you noted the wording after "never", that wording indicates where the confusion started with this item in the past possibly. So there you have it no DDR T-62 tanks, sometimes you have to go the extra mile or two!?! And do me a favor read the whole thing please! Thank You!! Maybe they can answer the TIGER tank speed question(s) as well!?!
Now about that French 105mm arty, a PITA if ever there was one, but not forgotten...

Here's the website...
http://www.panzermuseum-munster.de/?page_id=1273

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Well still dealing with some issues, but I felt these items warranted posting. I have a couple of updates and if you will a "validation" of an item submitted last year or the year before that Don added, it's good to have consistent references and the first item points that out.
1. Don the 3D rendering can now be replaced maybe by one of these pictures now but unless you have an issue with it the ALTAY Icon is probably good as it stands. The first two prototypes are on time and already out on the test range. One is being used for on and off road testing the other will test the weapons systems. The next two prototypes will incorporate any improvements noted after the initial trials are completed. Full rate production is still planned for early 2015. South Korean
K2 tech went into the ALTAY as well as lessons learned from the
M60T Project with Israel (SMI) and the LEOPARD-2T project. Note it has sixteen grenade launchers mounted.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/novem...y_2211124.html
Attachment 12152 Attachment 12153

Attachment 12154 Attachment 12155

Attachment 12156 This last because I've not seen many good pictures of the T-129 we entered a couple of years back but to check what start date we gave them as is obvious they're flying here. Though I think we had them operational this past summer if memory serves.


2. After the disappointment of the BLACK EAGLE (152mm MG) and the T-95, this is a case to paraphrase "Lots of news is good news" the ARMATA is going to provide the basis for many different platforms. The T-90MS is the test bed for the ARMATA and will probably be the last modification of the T-90 as well. The ARMATA prototype is still on track for early or mid 2013 and it will be unveiled at a military exhibition.
http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121122/177676314.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/novem...m_2311121.html

3. Flash...ARJUN MKII news is a little "hush hush" but fragments coming out suggust the on going evaluations are going well. If successful enough (More then originally planned for.) tanks might be ordered to retire the T-72 tanks. The T-90S as built in India will likely stay around. Based on the problems India was having with Russia in getting some of the parts needed to complete building the T-90S, India is still mulling over the idea of getting a licensing agreement to also build the T-90MS.
Flash...Nov. 9th Indonesia reaches agreement to build a light tank in a joint venture with Russia.
Flash... Russia to design and build a new IFV for it's Airborne Forces. Expected to be fielded in 2015/2016.

Today was a good day all around, I hope your weekends are as well!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I think that Zulfiqar 2 needs to be deleted from the OOB, like you said in the previous post, because it's only a test bed, and Zulfiqar 3 has to be added.

http://iranmilitarynews.org/2012/09/...odern-threats/

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_3.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/proje...rmainbattleta/

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_2.htm

Regards, luigim

Re: MBT's
 

First question: are you sure that there isn't in service a version of M1A2 TUSK with APDSFS rounds ( 20 SABOT 20 HEAT normal combat load) that would be classified in game in the normal MBT section and not the Urban Tank section?
I think that ERA armor would be useful in pure armor combat, and TUSK is a field installable kit that allows tanks to be upgraded without need to be recalled to a maintenance depot.

Second question: I read in this link
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2011/16.pdf

and in this link

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m1-specs.htm

that M1A2 SEP has 42 round instead of 40 ( in the game is 40).


Thanks.

Re: MBT's
 

Another question: in the USA OOB Cavalry Troop has 5 Morale and Experience Mod, while Cavalry Tank Section has no morale or exp mod; Cav Tank Section is in fact the same as MBT Platoon. Maybe there is an error and it needs to be updated with +5 Morale and Exp Mod?

Regards

Re: MBT's
 

It's been corrected

Don

Re: MBT's
 

It's designed for urban combat that's why it's armed with the really big shotgun

Re: MBT's
 

It's somewhat amazing that considering how long the M1A2 has been in the OOB's with the wrong ammo load and how many people play that OOB that you are the first to spot and report it

Good catch

ON THE OTHER HAND there are a lot of websites reporting the A2 carries 40 rounds including

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product429.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m1a2_abrams.htm
Don

Re: MBT's
 

Rainy sunday in Perugia, Italy.

That's why I'm critic-looking to the OOB.

Remember to add the right ammo number to the incoming ( in the next patch) SEP v2 tank.

I suggest an add:

Ukraine is upgrading its T64B to T64BM Bulat.

Here are the links:

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t64bm_bulat.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bmbulatmbt/

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_218.html

Re: MBT's
 

Well as most know I've been tracking the ARJUN MKI/MKII for a long time now. But since I was "side-lined" for a few months I lost track of the trials of the MKII around mid/late summer of 2012. After the MKI utterly destroyed the T-90S in trials in the summer of 2010 (Indian MOD pulled their T-72 tanks before the trials to avoid embarrassment, SEE MORE IN THIS THREAD.) I was looking forward to the results. Today since the Patch work is done (Thanks Don!) at my end for this year, to look into it. Well MOD/Army politics has gotten in the way along with economics as well. It took 35 years for India to get to the ARJUN, how many to the MKII? Who knows? I'm not proposing any date change etc. for the ARJUN MKII and the program is not dead. Also the purchase of the T-90MS (AM-Russian.) is old news if you've been following this Thread. The source is good and used many times by me and the Business Standard he writes for is an old and well respected news agency for you newer folks. In order...
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...s-to-push.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...ture-main.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...ifference.html

These are good reads that provide valuable insight how things work. Like the F-35 grounded again this Friday. Turbine fan stress cracks in the engine that should be good for a few months delay or longer a parallel though for different reasons but no less political or economic..

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

A useful site I subscribe to to get full download privileges and it's free. So while looking beyond the one good ref I have (Happens a lot with smaller countries unfortunately when dealing with equipment. And yes the work never really stops it seems!?!) concerning Argentina getting the first of it's updated TAM tanks from Israel, I came across this that some might find helpful Again this is the sample offered follow the directions if you want the rest.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/105269884/...ognition-Guide

Regards,
Pat

Unlike the Helo inputs, Don did have some feedback on the below items more about UNIT #'s etc. then the "nuts n bolts" of the equipment as presented. So you'll find a cleaner version here then was posted originally in The Patch Thread.
Otherwise nothing new here.

Patch Post #2 for the 2012/2013 campaign 18 February 2013. The first two items “real” purpose will be to provide a litmus test of real world technology meets game play realities. I can only provide the raw data and offer my interpretations of the information. Helo A7 and MBT A1 are there because they’re real and a decision will have to be made by Don and Andy in what direction this info will ultimately take the game in as the end date approaches. It is out of my hands but, we have arrived at a crossroads. What’s not here that some maybe expected? Yes you might be right if you guessed the Russian T-90AM/MS (Export version.). Why? Simply I have data and stats of all sorts, what I don’t have are production and acquisition dates for anyone including the Russians. So it’ll wait and hopefully I’ll get that info later this year. I will not throw a “Hail Mary” and enter it hoping I’ll be close to getting it right (or wrong.) there’s been too much of that already here by others in the past. Also the SAA OLIFANT now there’s a project and that’s why ~30 minutes ago I thought this can wait until next years campaign as well. Again I traveled the world and saw nothing now how does that happen!?! And please remember Post #1 for all others. Thank You!

MBT’s…
A1. USA/ADD/JAN 2012/M1A2 SEP V2/USE/MODIFY UNIT #637 with CROWS II .50 CAL/TI/GSR 50-70.//
The Army is currently operating with only three types of ABRAMS tanks. These are the M1A1 SA (These are the ones IRAQ are using.) models used by the Army Reserve and National Guard, the M1A2 SEP V1 and now the M1A2 SEP V2. The “heart” of the V2is the complete redesign of the new FCS and associated systems. There are engine and associated system upgrades as well more to efficiency and improved maintenance capabilities. Not clear as to any improvement in speed though, which is probably fine as is. The CROWS II system carries 5 times more ammo then previous machine gun systems carried of the .50 Cal class. These tanks are projected to be operational until 2050. The issue here will be “how far” so I’ll start with a quote from Commander of the 1st Combined Arms Battalion, 63rd Armor Regiment, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Henderson off Ref. 1 below …"The optics [system] has finally caught up with the ammunition," Henderson added. And…"The ammunition has always been able to kill at extended ranges but the previous optics did not allow us, in some cases, to positively identify targets beyond 3,000m." The new FCS now does this but, more on that below. All associated systems will need to be improved from FC, LRF (?) & STAB. The current BRADLEY’s have the same system as well, there is a new variant with the “BUSK” pkg I’ll submit next year to include this FCS pkg. The minimum from the quote above puts the game range at 60+ the maximum based on a couple articles I've read would take this out to 4500yds or 4115.800m which = 82.296 hexes. The article in ref 1 does mention 4000yds as well. I’m more concerned with the “positively identify targets beyond 3,000m.” part, I feel the time has come and we can’t ignore the reality of this situation. This will be the “MERKVA 4b” crossroads point of when that was advanced to TI/GSR 50 awhile back. Reference two will address the new M829E4 Kinetic Round that will push the “Vision” that I believe is already there now out to the 70+/- range, then what do we do?
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...aded-vehicles/
http://www.ausa.org/publications/arm...ts/SA_0911.pdf
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_2430.html
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

A2. TANZANIA/ADD/OCT 2012/TYPE 59G/RESET/MG Chinese 125mm SB w/Rds UKN/12.7mm and 7.62mm w/Rds UKN//
The tanks were shipped to China and RESET and during that time China has set maintenance facilities in Tanzania to support these tanks and other Chinese weapons systems bought there. The TYPE 59G represents the apex of the TYPE 59 development. The 125mm MG with auto loader is based on the Russian 2A46M 125mm MG. The turret appears to be the same one that’s on the new Chinese TYPE 96G. Based on that it would appear then also it is carrying the same EW system as the TYPE 96 which is similar to the Russian Shtora-1. It has been up armored with a new and heavier turret to support the MG, electronic and electrical systems have also been updated to include a new FCS and it also supposedly received new more powerful engines to provide the power needed for all the new systems onboard and the AC required to keep them cool. AC in tanks is just like AC in Subs, its there for the electronics first and crew comfort hopefully in a close second. This is probably true as the original engines would have problems in this area and in dealing with the extra weight and the need for additional speed as well. Note: It would appear this improved version of the Chinese TYPE 96 is not in the OOB as shown in Ref. 6 below. See UNIT 026. The refs refer to “the new TYPE 96”.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=55
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...9g_271211.html
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type59.asp
http://www.armyrecognition.com/china..._pictures.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/china...igence_uk.html

A3. SWEDEN/ADD/OCT 2004/STRV 122B/Use UNIT 358 and modify per below as needed//
The big issue here is protection over the base German Leopard tanks that the STRV-122A and STRV-122B design modifications are derived from. First a breakdown of the STRV Series. The STRV-121 is a Leopard 2A4 as used by Germany at the time of purchase by Sweden in 1994 and 1995 they are both interchangeable. The first STRV-121 became operational in Feb 1994 and are in storage dates range from late 2006 TO 2010. Ref. 1 does not currently list them, see C1 below.
The STRV-122A is a “German” Leopard 2A5 but that’s where the comparison ends. The Swedes had the STRV-122 frontal and side armor improved upon by adding a 3rd Generation add on armor to include glacial armor and the turret and spall liner installed. The major area in armor improvement was in the top protection for instance the turret hatches are just over 20cm in thickness. After extensive testing the Swedes decided on a geared system for opening them at even severe angles. Another major upgrade is the replacement of standard German smoke grenade launchers with the Gallix System. The Gallix System is essentially a soft-kill active defense system with a few extra wrinkles. The system uses nine grenade launcher tubes on either side of the turret, both of which can be rotated from +45 degrees to -5 degrees, independently of each other. (Standard elevation is 30 degrees, if none other is selected.) The Gallix System also includes sensors atop the turret to detect and warn of incoming targeting lasers and active IR targeting systems. The system can be set to launch one or more smoke grenades (either standard smoke or IR-obscuring smoke) automatically if lasers or IR targeting is detected, or the commander can choose to launch them at his command. Any of the grenade tubes can also be loaded with antipersonnel close-defense grenades (similar to the tactical buckshot or flechette rounds of grenade launchers); these must be fired by the commander (there is no provision for automatic firing of these grenades). Other types of grenades that can be used in the Gallix System include HE-Blast grenades and fragmentation grenades; again, these must be fired deliberately by the commander. They became operational in late 1997. See C1 below.
The STRV-122B has been further upgraded in a joint project with Germany and later the Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland. After extensive testing by the Swedes in the ability of the LEO to withstand IED and advanced RPG attacks. KMW did the work resulting in the German LEO 2A6M (30 modified with 20 to be later leased by Canada to support their Afghan Ops.) and STRV-122B (14 modified at this time.). Out of this project came additional improvements such as an armor plate on the bottom/lower front (See pic below.) for increased protection against IEDs, all around add armor, new improved spall liner throughout the interior, an improved vision system by better protecting the vision heads, vision blocks, rear camera, and the laser designator apertures, and improved better protected ammo storage as well. Per Ref. 1 the EVO package will be on the MBT 122B+ (Sounds like LEOPARD 2A7+ doesn't it?). Note Ref. 1 below is an official Swedish Defense source. Tank issues start on page 14.
http://ointres.se/2012-02-21_Lindstrom_IAV%202012.pdf
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/
http://www.haaland.info/armour/index...-stridsvagn122
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=457
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/35969/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...d_0706121.html
http://pmulcahy.100megs3.com/tanks/swedish_tanks.html
Pic:

A4. INDONESIA/ADD/JAN 2013/LEOPARD 2A6/Refurbished/Use GERMAN UNIT 033//
I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time here. I've posted on this tank deal for over a year or so already in the MBT Thread. Made some allowance for further training and logistics concerning the start date. Basically this was part of a move to better defend the country against the expansion of the Chinese military and the perceived threat it might have on the region and some local issues. This tank deal was started with the Dutch shortly after they took their LEO’s out of service and decommissioned their heavy armored units. See pg. 7 POST #65 C4 of this Thread. Anyway the Dutch parliament had issues over the (MOD and heads of Government supported the sale.) sale due to the Human Rights issues surrounding Indonesia. Indonesia had already evaluated several tanks and wanted the LEO’s and Germany stepped in ready to sell and support them once in country. The decision as I posted in the RE: SWEDISH Thread was easy in that the current LEO 2A6 was too advanced and expensive. Which left me with several options of which German UNIT 033 the best sense by date of service, time in storage and cost per unit based on the deal made and units ordered initially (Currently the order was increased to 103-105 units depending on source.) I further removed UNITS 034 and 035 for the same reasons as the current active German units. We will never know which one they got for sure without the release of specific contract information. I could only review the “calculus” of the information at hand and previous deals made to come to this conclusion. Part of the reason the Germans allowed for more tanks is the final negotiation of contract talks for the sell of MARDER 1A3 APCs in the last ref below but that’s for next year along with many other APC items I have. So much for brevity…anyway here are the refs in historical order...sort of.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...s_1612112.html
http://www.brecorder.com/general-news/172/1256722/
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...2a6-mbts-deal/
http://atlanticsentinel.com/2012/07/...-german-tanks/
http://www.defensie.nl/english/lates...ds_with_a_bang
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news120180.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...r_1003121.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...y_1409124.html

C1. SWEDEN/CHANGE/STRV-121/UNITS 357 & 359/End Date to DEC 2010/ Refs per A3 above.//
The STRV-121 had for several years faced inactivation due economic strains in the country after the STRV-122A became operational. I have been unable to find any information that any have been sold off at this time though, due to the current time crunch I’m under to get this out, I haven’t spent any time to dig hard on that issue. They are however without a doubt out of service and I feel pending better information and as per Ref 1 of A3 above feel comfortable with this information.

C2. SWEDEN/CHANGE/STRV-122/UNITS 31, 356 & 358/Change to STRV-122A/Modify per A3 above/Refs per A3 above.//
Most of the STRV-122 units are to be upgraded by the end of this year. It is unclear but likely they will include many of the changes made to the STRV-122B. It is “rumored” to be getting a new FCS as well which is why (If I remember correctly.) it’s on my list for the tank TI/GSR improvement over current game numbers as posted in the MBT Thread.

C3. IRAN/CHANGE/ZULFIFAR/UNIT 030/To ZULFIFAR 1//
C4. IRAN/CHANGE/ZULFIFAR 2/UNIT 032/To ZOLFIFAR 3//
The army recognition site reposted all the info they had on these tanks. Normally these do this when they have gotten more information on a piece of equipment. With Iran being one of the more secretive countries we deal with (N. Korea comes to mind as well.) you have to take advantage of any information that might come to light in this case, for these tanks. The ZULFIFAR 2 is in the game and should be modified per C4 above. The ZULFIFAR 2 is a prototype test bed that leads to the development of the ZULFIFAR 3. Only 2 to 4 depending on source are known to exist and are extensively used in military parades to show off Iran’s technical prowess. Everything else I've gleamed from this is that 1) Seems to be new info on the ZOLFAGAR 1 FCS and 2) Iran is equipping the ZOLFAGER 3with a new FCS. I don’t think we’re talking TI/GSR as much as an improvement in the other FCS factors we use. Of course this would mean an additional UNIT to be added, but I’m not quite sure of that for now. Maybe you’ll see something in the refs to change your mind however given your normal work load and what I’m dumping on you, this should have the lowest priority from this list and could wait until next year if needs be.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...rmainbattleta/
http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_...res_video.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_...res_video.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...s_0809121.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/febru...k_0402134.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...l_1204121.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_1.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/zulfiqar_3.htm

C5. THAILAND/CHANGE/OPLOT/UNIT 019/CHANGE DATE to JUN 2013//We swagged the last date as well however it wasn't enough to overcome some contract then finally some production delays caused by 40 customer requested modifications to their OPLOT tanks. A revised May delivery date is set. This should fix it. Also you can DELETE UNIT 999 they are defiantly getting the OPLOT base tank and not the OPLOT-M.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/janua...d_0501121.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/janua...d_0701131.html

C6. USA/CHANGE/M1A2 SEP/UNITS 318 & 649/Change to M1A2 SEP V1//
Per Refs provided for A1. above. More concerned with active service at the time the SEP V2 got fielded then you having to add two more of the SAME tanks in the OOB for a needed name change.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

For some reason these refs work on the Patch Thread for the M1A2 SEP V2 as submitted for the next patch. They however aren't working on the previous above post for some reason after I transferred that info here to the topic "home thread". They are important to the discussion so here they are in working order...
http://www.army-technology.com/news/...aded-vehicles/
http://www.ausa.org/publications/arm...ts/SA_0911.pdf

Regards,
Pat