Re: what about the future?
 

No, it's not unreasonable perhaps. But the "sombre side" isn't so homogen either. There is another forum started, yes. But that forum is fairly small, and not (yet at least) big enough to support it's own gaming community. Only a few hardcore veterans have switched over completely.

So it's dependent on this forum to keep connected with the multiplayer crowd. Most people who are there are also here, and most people who got angry over the sombre ban but didn't get banned themselves are still only here.

The function of the dom3mods fora is for THIS community to stay in touch with members it cannot afford to lose. It's an attempt to patch up the wound, how long will that work? Plus being a safe haven for pirates, nicely welded into the community here (nice side effect, huh?)

It's too late to try and create a community for this game from scratch, so we have to hold on to what there is. That is what the bitterness is about, not about the specific things you or Anette posted anywhere (you're kinda nice usually), it's about the DAMAGE. It's about not having what we had before, it's about wishing that thing never happened.

For good or bad, new players who come here sooner or later hear the story, on IRC or the dom3mods fora, and make their conclusions. It's not two "sides", it's a general change of attitude in large parts of the community.

Your home? I guess we're your dysfunctional traumatized kids then. :p

Re: what about the future?
 

I think he is missing the lulz. :)

Re: what about the future?
 

Oh yes, I wanted to reply to this as well. It's not the first time I hear this kind of reference to "other" dominions forums, usually by Gandalf Parker. But there is never any links or specific names of those forums.

I usually dismiss most that he says as either exaggerations based of miniscule evidence or rhetorics to boost his own perceived importance, but since you are now saying this as well I have to seriously ask what the hell am I missing?

Either it's just not true, or I'm having a really hard time finding them. I'd like to, having alternate places to arrange games would be really nice.

But all I can find are general gaming forums with a few dom3 threads in them. Mixed up with all kinds of other threads. Usually the activity is low. Examples of this are quarter to three, rpg codex etc. Quite many. But no real dom3 forums, no.

The only proper dedicated, structured(with subsections for multiplayer and mods etc) and active dom3 community apart from this that I could find was a Japanese one and the dom3mods fora (which is really a part of this one) , unfortunately I don't know much Japanese which would interfere with the experience a bit so I count that out.

So WHERE are all these "several" alternative dominions 3 communities?

I'd love a proper response with links and names in it if that's ok.

Re: what about the future?
 

Actually Im sorry Ive ever mentioned such forums. And conversations like this make me ever less likely to tell you where they are. I know others feel that way also since I can see multiple people on this forum and on Sombres who know of them. If you dont believe me, then great. Thanks for that. Lets keep it that way. :)

As for the discussions about Shrapnel, some points surprise me.

A) Comments about never buying another game from Shrapnel surprises me. I always got the impression that some of the loudest people along those lines had no clue that Shrapnel even sold other games. I have half a dozen or so, and demos of 4 others (altho truthfully I only regularly play 2 of the games)

B) Comments about Shrapnel being clueless seem like they can generally be disregarded if those people dont seem to know why Shrapnel exists. Where it came from, what its mission is, and how well it has done that.

C) Comments about do or die seem too black and white fanatical for real discussion. There is always grey zone. In a purely make money and get big scenario some things would be true that wouldnt seem to apply here. Some publishers (and developers) gladly fall more into the make less but do it the way you want category. I think that both Shrapnel and Illwinter fall in there and Im surprised if thats still unclear to people who have been around for a long time.


And tho Im not paid to moderate here I will again try to point out that the MODE of "suggesting" can create the opposite effect than desired. In a small company (publisher or developer) some of your "flawless logic" can poison the waters to being considered or accepted. If anyone REALLY WANTED such companies to change their viewpoint then I have to feel that they wouldnt possibly word it the way I see it worded in threads like this. Such an action wouldnt make sense.

Re: what about the future?
 

Wow... this reply is ... a bit childish. You really disappoint me here GD. Multiple 'secret' places where Dom3 is discussed is bad for the game you know.

Re: what about the future?
 

I do feel bad about it. Its definitely not my usual style.
But Gandalf Parker is NOT going to be the one to publish the path to Shangri-La. Sorry about that.

I pay for that, but Im used to it. NDA's, Beta agreements, non-public forums, regular contact away from this site with Shrapnel and Illwinter staff. I often have to check my sources and back off because its something not public to this forum.

Re: what about the future?
 

Wait, the names of other forums, presumably open to whomever wants to join, is somehow secret? lol.

Re: what about the future?
 

And they're Shangri-La. The secret heavenly forums.

Well, I'd hate to corrupt that with us common folk. Good job keeping it secret, Gandalf.

Re: what about the future?
 

Secret? no.
Really nice places and not eager to invite people on this forum to them? yes.
Does this thread not make this clear?

Re: what about the future?
 

Yes, maybe, but I don't even allow my child to talk to me this way. Next week we will start rewriting some of the forum rules here. These forums (our home) will be a kinder, gentler place.

We have never had this kind of discourse in our forums until Dominions 3. We realize this is a small group out of the many thousands that visit here each year. We don't understand it. But we won't put up with it anymore. You are more than welcome to disagree with us, to discuss what you think of our policies. To have intelligent debates. You just won't be allowed to attack us (or others) here. This will be a kinder, gentler place.

Why so? 2010 is shaping up to bring more members to our community than any year since release. The Dominions 3 crowd is growing, not shrinking. Since the sombre ban, we have added more new members than any 6 month period since game release. And that includes a 3 week period when new members were not being let in due to a coding error.

If you are looking for a site that will dedicate the bandwidth we do to one game, well, that probably doesn't exist. But there are other Dominions communities. Europe has three (try Cyberstratege in France). The Quarter-to-Three forums has several ongoing threads of dedicated Dominions 3 multiplayer gamers. But no, probably no forum that compares to here (We thought that was the sombre plan. And we were all for it.).

Re: what about the future?
 

Not really a "community", I guess, but there is an active game matching service at http://dom3.matryx.org.uk/ Anyone without a valid key need not bother, though. The administrators will verify your purchase with us.

Re: what about the future?
 

Actually there is a forum, and a channel. But the forum costs money to join.
And the maytrix site requires that I believe.

But it is a wonderful server. I think we could really use one of our own like that

Re: what about the future?
 

Something Awful?

Re: what about the future?
 

Lol. I had already pretty much left this site, but this takes the cake. Well done sir. Well done. You know, I really don't even agree with a lot of the comments posters make about shrapnel on this forum, but are you kidding me? The above is the dumbest thing I have ever seen you post. Nothing good can come of this move. Why don't you just stop reading this forum? It'll get the desired effect, and not create any more ill will towards you than you've already created with your insanely terrible past decisions on how to handle us. How can you keep making mistake after mistake and not learn from it?

So here is what I think of your new policy: It's a bad idea. You are going to make everyone angry and even more people will quit this forum. Yes, a number of these will be fairly outspoken people you don't really want to have around anyway disturbing your harmoniousness. Some will not be. There will likely be another rebellion and another round of bans, and much ill temper. But if you want to deal with all that nonsense all over again, please. Go right ahead.

Why so? 2010 is shaping up to bring more members to our community than any year since release. The Dominions 3 crowd is growing, not shrinking. Since the sombre ban, we have added more new members than any 6 month period since game release. And that includes a 3 week period when new members were not being let in due to a coding error.[/quote]

I wonder if the immense and disappointing failure that has been Elemental might have slightly more to do with more new people showing up than Sombre's disappearance. Could it... possibly make any sort of sense?

Re: what about the future?
 

That's where that's hosted, yes. Something Awful has always seemed like a terrible forum to me. You have to pay to join? And then wade through a gigantic megathread for everything dominions-related? What a nightmare, to have all your game conversation and newbie questions all mixed together.

Re: what about the future?
 

no... they're dom3 crowd is horrible, and their multiplayer games are full of leavers and wankers... this goes without saying but subs are completely out of the question over there, same goes with fighting until the end.

Re: what about the future?
 

Yes, the Something Awful forum is a terrible place and nobody posting in this thread should ever go there. Ever.

It's for your own good, really.

Re: what about the future?
 

Yes Something Awful is terrible. The megathread is a terrible idea and all of the posters are bad posters.

Yeah there is basically an agreement over there that whoever loses a battle goes AI immediately and may not ask for a sub. Also they are literally wankers and will talk about it in their chat along with hyperbuttes and being terrible at everything, especially dom3.

Re: what about the future?
 

So what is your nick on SA? ;)

Re: what about the future?
 

Most of what you say is correct :)
I run this tracker service, on behalf of our community within the Something Awful forums - there's no link back to the forums from the tracker because everyone on the tracker already knows where they are. Yes I do validate purchases before you can sign up for the tracker, but more importantly this site was set up primarily for myself and my friends and are not generally open to the public so you also need to be verified as a forum member over there.
If anyone did decide to pay and join the forums (yes, I said 'pay' - helps keep the bad eggs out as your account is literally worth something and bans are bans), then get to know us and you'll be welcomed in assuming you're not a troublemaker or a jerk. Anyway, yes - nice healthy community. Over 300 people registered on just my tracker site within that community, and scores of games active at any one time.
Not really sure what point I was trying to make, but perhaps just to serve as an example of a relatively recent community set up from scratch?

I do understand arguments against the megathread approach, but the forums themselves cover too much ground to have a subforum for every single topic anyone wants to talk about.

As for in-game policy re: leaving - there's nothing against getting subs in at all - happens all the time. I should know - I administrate swapping the players over on the trackers so passwords and email alerts for new turns go smoothly.
Equally, there's a general standing rule that if you're not having fun, you shouldn't have to play. Not all games are run like this - some specifically say if you go AI you're not welcome in another game run by that host. It's all specific to the individual.
Don't let a few poor assumptions and your own short sightedness cut you off from good opponents.

Re: what about the future?
 

Everyone goes AI on turn 2 of a something awful game, it is an agreement they have.

Re: what about the future?
 

Could we all please stop with the constant hostility towards each other?

---
Edit about the quitting after losing one big battle, that is partly true. It was even mentioned in Lets Play Dom3 somewhere on the SA forum.

Edit2:
Lets plays are great btw. Love that part of SA.

Re: what about the future?
 

Sorry what?

Re: what about the future?
 

Actually a number of the Something Awful games have the "no AI" rule enforced.
Going AI is automatically backed out and notifies the person running the game so they can decide to let it go thru or look for a sub. But Id chalk up the recent flood of going AI mostly to the recent flood of new players getting into MP too soon IMHO

In general, the most serious games by the most serious gamers for Dom3 are found on Sombers forum and irc channel. Thats a good place to find such games.

Re: what about the future?
 

Right. Then whoever's AI lasts the longest is considered the winner.

Re: what about the future?
 

Mm... all I was commenting on was the megathread, not the actual players. Personally, I need more organization than that. I can imagine what it would be like refreshing this forum when I woke up and finding I had 10 new pages to read through, with who knows how many of them I'd find having anything I was interested in reading about. And I admin lots of games so that would get trying very quickly. I'm not quite sure why you took that as an attack on your community over there. I am not so shortsighted as to attack people I've never met or spoken to about the game. The only person I've spoken to from SA is TheDemon, and he seems a decent enough player. So... yeah, I have no idea where this post is coming from, sorry.

Re: what about the future?
 

And here I was trying to actually be nice, going out of my way trying to be honest while at the same time dodging that unpredictable banhammer with toungue twisting cunning linguistics. :(

Repression got you into this situation, more repression will make it worse.

Not only because banning one member upsets others, but also because banning a member here doesn't really remove that person from the community unless the community at large supports the decision (like norfleet etc). If you don't have that support, your ban will just be a minor nuisance when communicating and organizing games. You'll achieve close to nothing, but take the full hit from the anger it causes. Every single person you banned along with sombre is still part of this community, still play in games organized here, still takes part in discussions etc. Either through IRC or dom3mods.

That is great news. I didn't know that, but then I guess there is a recruitment base for the dom3mods fora so might be hope for it to survive. I'll stay around here too if you don't mind, I love the crowd here.

Yes I was looking for a forum with a comparable structure and knowledge base. But I'm glad you are positive to Sombres forum complementing this one, that makes things a lot easier.

Re: what about the future?
 

I don't see a problem with having rules about how to act in a social Forum. I also don't see a problem with banning someone who doesn't follow those rules, or acts in a harmful fashion. It's the Internet, and because of the anonymity that offers, social norms require enforcing--the difference between this and real life, is just that it's much easier to enforce them.

This is a gaming Forum, after all--it's not a revolution, or an oppressive regime.
So there's no real emphasis on "charging up Bull Run" in defense of idealogy, on a gaming Forum.

Either one acts in a way that is socially acceptible, and according to the terms of use, or one is penalized for not following through on what they've agreed to do. It's an offered service, after all, rather than being, for instance, a land war, political campaign, or something of moral imperative.

If it really were all that "repressive", I'd have been banned myself, a long time ago.

Re: what about the future?
 

Thats right. Internet has room for everyone.

Im thrilled that the Sombre forum exists. Now instead of a "change" war, we can have 2 happy sites. This "kinder and gentler place" where new people can ask questions and discuss the game. Play in some fun games.

And Sombre's where serious players can have more serious discussions and play in more serious competitive ladder style games.

As long as everyone has their option for the type of forum they prefer then everything is great.

Re: what about the future?
 

Err... False dichotomy.

The difference is that on dom3mods, people can say what they mean and not have to worry about the niceness police descending on them. Enforcing 'niceness' rules encourages all sorts of destructive passive-aggressive behavior that is openly nice but the impact is anything but, and this can only be stopped by letting people call BS when they see it. Ie, a community is perfectly capable of enforcing its own standards of behavior, and indeed, when the rules come down against the community, the community will logically feel attacked.

Regardless, dom3mods engages in all the sorts of activity you attribute as being the sole province of this forum. New players can still ask questions (and do, although much of that happens on IRC instead). Fun games still happen (eg, Nostalgia). And non-serious discussion certainly occurs (there's an entire subforum dedicated to it!). The difference is that on the one forum the community determines acceptable behavior, while on the other acceptable behavior is declared from on high.

Re: what about the future?
 

I don't know what the argument is. You've got a Forum, and that's great. The whole "but it's got this, and this, and this" effort is starting to sound just a tiny bit insecure at this point, however, especially since noone's really disagreeing.

Re: what about the future?
 

Well, when gandalf continually implies otherwise, there's a certain point to bringing it up, isn't there? But thanks for that. It's good to know that we dysfunctional children have a counselor ready to help us with our issues.

Re: what about the future?
 

Wow, where to start?

The bans were handed out for breaking forum rules. It wasn't a matter of correcting people for being wrong about the nuisances of the game. Your master harassed new players, he insulted other members of the community on a daily basis for little to no reason, he was an all around pretty rotten guy to everyone except for your little group. The bans that came after his were delivered because the people wanted to be banned.

A community with rules does not promote passive-aggressive behavior. In this particular case, it ensured that people were treated equally on the forums. Shrapnel has a obligation to its customers to provide a forum that allows for all people to participate without worrying about intimidation from other forum goers.

You tout your new forum as being free, but really it is not that much different than this one. Instead of a handful of moderators making the rules, you have a handful of people who got banned from here. To say that your whole forum decides the rules is absurd, there is little chance that you could get everyone to participate in such decisions which means that the core members of the forums will decide what happens.

Finally, Shrapnel's forum rules are pretty standard as far as forums go; so drop the forum nazi crap. The only thing that is different here is your disbelief that a heavily active modder could be punished for being a douche bag.

Re: what about the future?
 

rdonj, you're welcome to beat your point into the ground as thoroughly as the ground will stand it.

And I very much agree with the naivete involved in assuming any online Forum is somehow going to either "work", or remain, as a benevolent anarchy.

Re: what about the future?
 

It's funny, I come into this thread to tell one person I think he's making a mistake and that there's going to be more political fallout... and apparently I'm getting on everyone's hit list BUT the one guy I took issue with. You people are driving me crazy, and I feel no need to defend myself against things I never did. I don't appreciate those arguments, they are a waste of my time and energy. However, in the interests of being technically correct, I would like to point out that fantomen and I are most definitely not the same person.

On a completely unrelated note, the characterization of Sombre as our master was hilarious. Thanks for that one stampy.

Re: what about the future?
 

I think maps dynamically changing was a great thing thematically. Maybe it made actual multiplay somewhat less balanced, but I personally could easily live with it!
From Dom 2 to Dom 3 at least 1 spell - Astral Weapon was also removed. Maybe some were from Dom 1 to Dom 2, too.

Re: what about the future?
 

Yeah, that did catch my eye, Wrana. I wonder what it was like? I imagine something like desert areas transforming into forests or swamps, which would be pretty neat.

Especially with things like "stronger in mountains/forests" abilities, and certain spells, now that I think about it...

Re: what about the future?
 

See, and I think 'repression' (your word, not mine) got us out of a bad situation. People were leaving the forums, and new registrations were way down. Now things are turning around.

I'll settle for them being removed from our forums. I don't want them to stop being a part of the community at large, I don't want them to stop playing Dominions. Anyone is welcome here if they can live with the rules. If they can't they aren't wlecome here.

You assume we will let that anger be conveyed here. As I have already said, we are through allowing that kind of behavior here.

Okay, that is a good thing, right?

Your more than welcome here. We are not trying to turn this into a forum where everyone has to agree with us. We<b> will</b> turn it into a forum where everyone will, at least here, show us and the community here, common courtesy.

Re: what about the future?
 

Um. What? When did I *ever* say that. I think you need your eyes examined, since you clearly didn't read the post you were replying to.

I'm talking about the difference in 'rules' of community behavior being established and enforced by the community vs. being established and enforced by someone outside the community. I don't know what you're talking about.

lol, master. Hilarious. Because having my own thoughts that are different from yours clearly means i must be in thrall to someone you dislike.

Maybe you should look at the thread which actually led to him getting banned. He was harassing someone for a pretty good reason, and that someone was engaging in a *lot* of passive-aggressive behavior. (That of course was only the ultimate cause. The proximate cause was declaring the initial penalty was laughable, which had nothing to do with anything he did in public).

Ah, naivete.

All communities have rules. Communities encourage desired modes of behavior and discourage undesired modes of behavior by engaging in discouraging or reinforcing behavior. It doesn't require forum rules with moderators enforcing them for a community to have rules of behavior. Thus all forums (and all communities) also engage in intimidation to some degree to enforce their notion of what is proper. There is no such place as an intimidation-free community.

And not all rules encourage passive-aggressive behavior. But rules which discourage conflict do, because passive-aggressive behavior is all about provoking conflict without appearing to be engaging in conflict yourself.

err.. and why is that a relevant juxtaposition? Unrelated statements are unrelated.

No, I didn't say the whole forum decides. I said the community decides. Being part of the community requires active participation. And it isn't necessarily (or even likely to be) something the community actively decides, its something that the behavior of members of the community decides.

Seriously, did you actually read my post? I'd like to read the post you did read, because it sounds way more fanciful and entertaining than what I wrote.

(most importantly, i didn't pass judgement on either forum, i just pointed out what the consequences of enforcing 'niceness' rules is. And there is passive-aggressive behavior on this forum that would not be tolerated on the other one.)

Re: what about the future?
 

Sheesh I was was just trying to be diplomatic. Of course any forum CAN be anything. I was just trying to paint a picture of both forums using terms inoffensive to both sides. Instead you want to paint a picture that your forum does not offend anyone and this one is all wrong (there isnt really a majority agreement on either of those).

I think most regulars know that my personal description of the other forum and the people on it are nothing close to what I posted. But to say so, I would have to go there (yes I fully understand that is one of your selling points). I happen to recognize that such a post would not fit the environment desired here.

And I agree with that. New people here do not need a double barrel of my opinion on what some of you are posting. I dont have to live here and demand a right to vent. There are other forums for that.

Re: what about the future?
 

That feature was great. I really loved it. I asked IW to keep for dom-II but they took a whole different approach to maps. So now maps are, generally, better looking but don't change dynamically.

I also like Astral Weapon. Why did they choose to remove it anyway?

Re: what about the future?
 

Guys, re. the game price sub discussion: I respect your opinions, intelligence and good intentions and I’m a player, so we’re on the same side, but with all due respect, let the man run his business. You can make all the analytical observations in the world, make suggestions, good or bad, that makes lot’s of sense or little - at the end of the day it’s his livelihood that’s at stake, not yours. Good or bad, this is the sales strategy Shrapnel feels comfortable with. That doesn’t mean they can’t adapt/improve listen to good suggestions but it does mean that the criticism must take into account who’s risking what.

As for the latest bad vibes comments and counter comments. I'm also upset by past mods decisions but it's all said and done. Don't forget or don't forgive but really, there's not much sense in investing energy in re-opening old wounds.

IMHO, taking into acct past debacles, these forums here host the "best" community for dominions. I for one wouldn't want to see them shrink, close, or lose any more members.

Re: what about the future?
 

I wouldn't call my picture of the other forum totally rosy. Implicit in being able to say what you mean is accepting other people will to. People who don't follow community standards will be ostracized by the community. Its the way communities work. The only counterpoint is that rules which try to control that merely change who is ostracized, not that some people are. And its important to realize that. No community can be everything to everybody.

Now, i certainly did imply that I find passive-aggressive behavior more annoying than combative behavior.

And you're engaging in passive-aggressive behavior in that post GP. If you think I'm wrong you can just tell me I'm wrong, you're not going to hurt my feelings.

Re: what about the future?
 

Zeldor, Squirreloid, you are good players and I don't want you to disappear from this forum as I have no time nor desire to participate in the second one. Please, try to relax a bit. I understand why you're angry; however please try to relax a bit and stop getting into position where permaban is the only reasonable choice for forum administration. This will be bad for the community and you know it.

Re: what about the future?
 

I heard the other forum has half off cherry limeades between 2 to 4 pm; Can you confirm or deny this?

Re: what about the future?
 

You've been mis-informed Foodstamp. The offer is on peach schnapps between 6-8pm, every Tuesday to Thursday. Although you do have to defeat a Markata in 1-on-1 combat to be eligible for the offer.

Re: what about the future?
 

I could only hope to be so powerful, witness the power of the markata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTSeJu7QaA

Re: what about the future?
 

That's unfair!. Only another Markata would be able to accomplish such a feat.
So typical of that other forum. Lure you in with special deals and then snatch them away. No wonder they were all banned here.

Re: what about the future?
 

No, few of them find it and purchase it. That is very different from appeal, as there is a huge difference between the group of people who would like the game if you put it in front of them and had them play it, and the people who would find and purchase it. Locally, the median age of Dominions 3 players is probably around 13.

Re: what about the future?
 

13? I kind of doubt that...I'm in my 30's (I'm quickly losing my hair, have a wife, a mortgage, gallstones, arthritis, the whole bit), and a lot of the players I know are older than I am.