Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Executor, you disappoint me.

You goad Caelum so that he'll tell you how much Shishis cost and how much gems he has. That's low. Is it not enough that you all but vanquished him and that he survives by fighting bravely and nobly against all odds - that you must resort to false accusations to get more info from him?
Is it not enough that through manipulation you caused his ally TC to betray him to his death?
Do you now try to do the same with me?- 2:1 (and thanks Mictlan now 2:2) odds not good enough for you?- R U concerned now you learn that your ally chooses to hide in his castles rather than fight?

Also, your scouts are not blind, you're just lying as I have no trolls. No W. queens (just 1) at your borders and not my pretender either for that matter. Here, happy?- Your filthy lies bought you more info for you to abuse. Turns are kept on the server so all can be checked thus such lies are futile.

Oh and "Good thuggish"? R U kidding?- I had Jotun in AT and those werewolves were a killing machine. With EN bless and cheapest of items they become. Well. Awesome. And you know that so don't play coy.

Nobody is my puppet. Now you insult me and my friends. I treat all the players I talk to with utmost respect. I never lie and keep all my promises. I lay out the facts and let each decide. Did it ever occur to you that those that side with me do that out of their own choice and will and after much thought or do your habits for manipulation make you see all the rest to be the same as you. I'm not power hungry to win. Don't care much about the outcome but I do care about those nations I'm bound to and luckily, they know I will never betray them.

You know what. You're not convincing anyone. The convinced are already convinced and I guess that's true for those who side with you as well as to the other camp.
However, resorting to lies and insults is low. Sad that you'd choose to act in such dishonor. It doesn't become a player of your stature.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Oh Man, Why did they remove the edit button :confused:

I double checked my turn and I owe you an apology re. one sub-fact that you mentioned. You said that "massive troops on the Jotun - Ermor border, which include legions of undead, mages, Water Queens, Bane Lords, Spectral mages, trolls and troll Kings, and even their pretender."
For the record I've only 1 WQ there, no spectral mages and no pretender. I don't have troll kings but I forgot that I summoned one sea king for BF water spell support :doh:. I checked all my border castles to try and figure out where that troll kings claim came from and found this one king. God forbid, as sea kings are known to dominate the late game :p
So while your statement consists of a number of lies and exaggerations I do in fact have one sea king.

While mentioning armies why don't you mention your armies at my borders? Complete with all the resplendence of NE bless woodsman and shrouded WW.

Why don't you mention that prior to your 2:1 war declaration on me Pyth had more income than me and you had more gems and provinces?- Is it my fault that Pyth doesn't fight back?- or would you like me to raise a white flag :yield: ? ;)

I say. Good riddance of Jotun. I want none of your provinces. All will go to my ally If things go my way.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Ah but we do not lie, your pretender is indeed there, one province away, in the reach of Pythium who will slay him!
Where one Water Queen is others may be found, that is a fair assumption.

So, where are you hiding those spectral mages? Are they already in my lands? I know I saw some once you took over helpless Agartha. ;)

Well maybe in your hands they would be SC. Not everyone knows how to use them. ;)

TC chose well in not attacking me. We both saw the error of our ways and stopped spilling innocent blood!

Sea Kings are quite good! People underestimate them I think.

My armies at the border. 50 archers on the front where you have 400 troops with all sort of goodies, and on the other side only poor woodsman and werewolves that retreated from Cealum and lost their way!

Are you so good that Mictlan even thinks it was his own choice to join you? Oh, how well you control the minds of others. Fear not good Mictlan, for you shell be liberated and guided into the eternal light!

How can the good giants sit by in peace and watch while you mass your troops on our borders? No more good sir, no more.
And did not the undead invite us to attack our beloved neighbor Pythium who stood by us and refused to join Cealums vicious attack on us? We are merely returning the favor.
Ermor has broken our thrust but we took no hostile actions so far. Only now when your ally attack me must I declare war on you, as I can not idly sit by and let this pass.

Really, Shishies are 2 for 30? How did I never notice that?

Well, that was quite enough for me. I'll stop now before this gets out of hand and we start spamming this thread :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Dear Executor. I'll say it as politely as I can. You are making false claims. Here are the latest false claims that can be proven so by the turn files:
1. "your pretender is indeed there, one province away, in the reach of Pythium who will slay him!" flat out lie, ahm false claim.
2. "Where one Water Queen is others may be found, that is a fair assumption." If you knew that there was one why did say that all queens were there?- For dramatic effect?- Shows how credible your claims are.
3. "TC chose well in not attacking me." That is not entirely true. Combination of threats and a golden severance package got the job done :)
4. "My armies at the border. 50 archers on the front where you have 400 troops with all sort of goodies, and on the other side only poor woodsman and werewolves that retreated from Cealum and lost their way!" Man, you so enjoy misleading. Where you have archers and one or more Skratti your ally Pythium has, what is probably, the strongest single army on the map. Masses of the elite of the Pythian legions backed by "goodies" are present so naturally I had need of strong military presence in the region.
on the other side you have two armies at my borders and a 3rd on the move. Those armies contains woodsman, Skratti werewolves and Gygjas, certainly not paper tigers.
5. "Are you so good that Mictlan even thinks it was his own choice to join you? Oh, how well you control the minds of others." Pure nonsense. Your cynicism makes you blind to values of common sense and interests, loyalty and friendship and so mistake them for some magical mind control.
6. "And did not the undead invite us to attack our beloved neighbor Pythium who stood by us and refused to join Cealums vicious attack on us?" That was, a- after Pythium broke his NAP with me and before you did and b- I smelled a rotten fish between you two so I wanted to flush out the truth. I was 99% sure that you'd join Pyth and I was right. Maybe this is the time to mention that you were perfectly content to let me have my way with Pyth if only I allowed you to slay Mictlan. Ho, you didn't say so explicitly, you're too shrewd for that but you asked me whether I'm willing to let Mictlan be slain by you (and didn't attack me up to that point). Once I said that I wouldn't abandon Mict. then you started with your holy war in earnest.

As you may notice I didn't start this spam storm (that dubious honor belongs to you) but I will respond to propaganda, lies and false accusations. Well, at least until I get too tired of that.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Dear WL,
1. Was your pretender not located in 226? :), maybe you moved him now, I can't see as you are patrolling in most of your forts.
2.(4) As for credible claim, the armies on your border, isn't the one with the werewolves and some woodsman sieging a Cealum fort, and has been for quite some time now? And besides, you're patrolling and placing troops on your border, I just did the same this turn by splitting that army, and that army is in no way capable of defeating your army on the border. As for another army on the way, that was an army sent to siege the second Cealum fort, hm, and it's not exactly true to say Gygjas in plural, or maybe you mean the ones in the Cealum capital doing researching?
3. Why is that a false claim? We made a truce, under what conditions it was made is a private matter. I just stated we stopped fighting which we did.
4.Pythium army is unrelated to mine. I still only have about 50 troops with some mages in that fort. And besides, you stand between me and Pyths army so it's not like I have his protection there.
5. How conviniant to have Mictlan join you at this very moment and declare war on me.
6. You are right about this. I did need to join Pyth, but only because he can't beat you on his own as you are too powerful. So it's either watch you take over Pythium slowly and than probably everyone else, or join and try and deal with you along side Pythium. I'm much rather not go to war with you, but I can't let you take over Pythium. I think this is a very logical reaction on my part. If you and Pyth make peace I'd be more than willing to do the same.
I had no intension in attacking Micltan before he attacked me, which he did this turn. I even waved the last turn of the NAP once he asked when hostile actions could be taken as there were not supposed to be taken this turn but I don't mind. And as you see I've mobilized nothing against Mictlan and taken no actions what so ever.
Mictlan can still have peace if he so wishes.

I don't spam, or make false claims, lies or propaganda. All of the above is true.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Yet yo do :)

The answer to #1 is no.
The answer the #4 is yes, it's very related. For me it matters not who attacks me, you or Pyth. I need to defend myself in any case. So having a mega army at my border means I need to take counter measures.
The answer to #5 is obvious, why would Mictlan or anyone else risk attacking you?- Your nation is scary but once you moved to war with me a lot of the fear factor was gone so now you're actually a fair target and I hope Mictlan would benefit a lot from expanding into your lands.
The answer to #6 is that it's BS. How exactly was I slowly conquering Pyth when we were, a- at peace and b- I was constantly offering him better diplomatic ties. I had no intention of attacking Pyth whatsoever. Just check this thread to see how many times I offered to him to back out of his war declaration.

Peace is always a good option. As I said I'm willing to negotiate for a peace agreement with Pythium if he is so willing.
As for Jotunheim, I think too much blood has been spilled: Pangaean & Caelumite. Also, too much is in motion (Caelum is managing to survive and hit you back, Mictlan joining the fray). It will be difficult and possibly devestating to me, Mictlan and Caelum if we were to, now that things are too hot for you, back out. It will only give you time to regroup and restrengthen and pick us down one at a time at your leisure.
I'm afraid such a move would be suicidal to us and we can't have it.
You should know that a lot of what came to pass is the result of Caelums cry for help. It took a very long time for such help to come (due to fear factor that I admit to have shared as well :) ) but now that it did, it would be stupid to back off.

I'm sorry friend, looks like the camps are made and the battle lines are drawn, now all that's left is to see how things play out.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

I grow tired of you deceptions WrathLord,
after this you shall hear no more from me.

It seems you have so much troops you keep forgetting where many are. I saw your pretender in Agarthas land, no need to deny that.

I fail to see the reason in where you and Pythium keep stockpiling troops on the border to be in any way or sense related to me. This started even before I withdrew my NAP, in fact I think it started way back when you assimilated Agartha, and Pyth assimilated Man who were at war with each other.

What is BS? I told you that I will not let Pythium go to war with you alone, that means even in the case in which he now attacks you, although you took the initial hit and now I've declared war, after the NAP expired. He might attack you first, but you'll still end up the winner, and I can't allow that to happen. I never stated you attacked as that makes little difference.

Heh, you act as if I keep attacking everyone, when it was I who was attacked by Cealum, and now by Micltan too. TC also attacked me, but we worked out peace. So that's 3 nations so far that attacked me, and yet you portrait me as the aggressor.

If it's war you seek, I will grant you that wish. We now go to war my friend.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

"It seems you have so much troops you keep forgetting where many are. I saw your pretender in Agarthas land, no need to deny that." :lol, however that's still not true. Never has my pretender set foot in Agarthan lands. I'd be more than happy to send the turn files to you or any 3rd party once the game is over for close scrutiny.

"I fail to see the reason in where you and Pythium keep stockpiling troops on the border to be in any way or sense related to me. " It started when Pyth broke his NAP with me.

"What is BS?" You saying you had to come to Pyth's help when, a- I was at peace with Pyth and even offered him a longer NAP; b- Pyth broke his NAP with me and c- you broke your NAP with me as well. If you hadn't initiated this I would never have attacked Pyth. In short, you made this brew and now complain that it's not to your liking ;)

War has been forced upon us yet we shall not flinch nor fail our allies.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Unholy Jotuns!

You burned Caelum's millenarian library with its unique sum of holy knowledge, and you confess conducting unholy researches with hideous Gygjas in our most refined Citadel of Frozen Crystals. Who knows if you don't use captured Caelian virgins for your perverse rites!!! :shock:

These are definitely your ultimate sins, don't be surprised if civilized Nations take steps against you! :mad:

If you think this is too much for your poor Giants, give me back my capital and all territories once administrated by the wise rule of the Seraphs, and you -might- receive our forgiveness.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

We can have peace Lord of the Werewolves. After you have been cut down to a more manageable size ;)

Your meek and mild utterances would be taken more seriously if you were not both a feared veteran player and in control of one of the most powerful MA nations :) Which I fear we have all let have far too long a time of peace considering your Blood potential :( I just hope I am not too late in striking. And even if this war goes badly I hope others are encouraged to throw their hat into the ring rather than meekly concede to you later on....

I dare say you might have stayed at peace. After all your Blood income and stockpile should already be very high. How much longer would you need before you turned that in to power and received everyone's concession? Why risk painting a target on your head by taking more lands when you can win with what you have as long as no other power grows large enough to challenge you?

But we are all wise to your plan - except Pythium :p - and whether I fight you alone or with allies the rest of the world will be praying for a Mictlan not Jotun victory. For that way lies hope for us all :angel:

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

A fair point Hoplo, but Ermor is not exactly a kitten either nor the player behind it.

I'd have you take just this one thing into account,
I have been in constant wars since turn 8 onwards, spending gems, gold, wasting troops etc, while your good ally is still untouched by war, which means he has an even bigger gem stockpile. His forts, army, doesn't it frighten you?

Think about who the real big bad wolf is, and if Pyth and I get defeated which seems like a very likely option after all, who will be left standing to take on your ally...

We look forward to meeting you in battle. Cheers.

WL, I might have been mistaken. I remember that *that* could have been an enslaved Agarthain Oracle. I owe you an apology if so.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

NP Executor, gouging things from scout reports may be misleading. As is the case here.

Your point is somewhat valid though (MA Ermor has far less tools in it's shed them Jotun) but hopefully if you fall the nation that takes your lands would be very strong and I certainly plan to let Mictlan have it all.

Re. Pythium, If we win and if Pyth refuses peace then I may freely give some of it's provinces and one of it's VPs to one of my allies. I will do all that's possible to not paint a big target on my forehead.

But, First things first - we have a war to win.

Executor, I genuinely respect you and value your friendship. I guess we were bound to run into each other at some point and so we have :)

GL and may the best beast, wolf, undead, legionary, winged birdman or spotted jagwere win :D

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Guys, If no sub is found for Van by next turn I'll be forced to turn it to AI. It sucks but I guess we're better off with AI than with a leaderless nation.

In case you didn't know there isn't a magic "turn AI" button on the server. I'll have to ask a favor from some trusted 3rd party to perform that task.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

If you are willing to let a newbie sub in, I'll sub for Vanhiem. It would be my first multiplayer game however.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

NebulousQ, I think that would be fine. The AI is completely hopeless and is only serviceable (in a way) for SP. As for you, I hope this would serve to be an entertaining learning experience. Please PM with your email address ASAP. Once I get it I'll set you up for controlling Van and extend the hosting so you have time to get your bearings.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

PM sent.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Turn sent. I'll also add 48h to the timer.

Welcome aboard :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

The Void knows that everyone is lying

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Guys, it looks like Tryfan has doubly scrxwed us, first disappearing like that and 2nd by password protecting his file.

Hoplosternum, any chance you can ask him for the password?

I have set a master pwd in place but I'm reluctant to pass it.

Dear players, I am asking for any helpful suggestions you may have. I don't want to drag the game forever and NebulousQ has his turn but can't play it :(

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Well, just to be on the safe side I suggest you take over Vanheim and give Ermor over to NebulousQ. That seems like the most logical step to me.

Also, if you happen to find Vanheim not to your liking you should than change yourself to AI. And don't forget to send your gems and gold to someone so they don't go to waste, say to Jotunheim for example...

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

:lol

And then I could finally start a new game. Perhaps take MA Jotun again ;) -> Tempting... :D

BTW, I gave NebulousQ the M pwd. No point in prolonging this sad saga any longer.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

I have taken over as Vanheim, thanks to Wraithlord and everyone for letting me sub into this game. I should be able to get my turn in today (Monday January 17).

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Greetings NebulousQ, and welcome to the game. :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Thanks for the welcome!

Also, I guess we have to apply the patch for the next turn?

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

IIRC from past upgrades, Llamaserver process this turn either way, but will require everyone to upgrade before the next turn is due.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

I've read with much interest the last public declarations of many lords here. And I want know to make myself humble and to bow behind the Silver Words of my Fallen Brother WL. I admit I am not a match for that kind of magic. I, ruler of Pythium, I have been trying to gather some help against the Ermorian threat from several nations, since say... t20 or so. Without any success, even when it was still something easy to do : Ermor was not at his best and his war machine was still asleep, the Zombies were just grabbing undefended indies all around their lands. But at this point, although the graphs were already very indicative, nobody dared to join Pythium against Ermor. Worse : one nation spoke to Ermor and told them what I was trying to do. End of round 1.

And now we are, the graphs are even more indicative. Everybody is able to see that Ermor still recruits swarms of troops despite the fights, when his opponents are now blocked. At this point, only Jotun, for obvious reasons, has agreed to engage against Ermor. Not a single other nation, despite my continued efforts, not a single other free nation joined. But some foolish rulers did join Ermor anyway.

Magic, I say. :up:

And unfortunately, Ermor is now much more difficult to face than it was 20 turns ago, and Ermor has gained allies.

So my guess now is : either you, Lords of the Free and Living World, awake from your funest sleep and fight the Zombie Wave while it is time to fight, or the Fate has risen and the whole world will soon knee under the ermorian flag.

And you know what ? There's not a single foocking Whisky Distillery able to brew under such stinky scales. :(

You've been warned.

Vae victis & God Save the Talisker,
H. from Pythium

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Oh such fine fearmongery as I've ever laid eyes upon. And from the mouth of one who has so much as admitted to play crown maker for Jotun.

Tsk. Tsk. So two leading nations, both considered to be top tier (one of which is IMHO the best nation - Pythium) both amongst the top three in the graphs, that control 5 VPs and 3 globals in common!!! - make a move to shred their opposition and crown the frost giants. And now that forces have awakened to oppose them they would speak as Sauron to the lords of Numenor, they would scare and they would speak sweet poison - all in an effort to break all bonds of fellowship and so take over the world one piece at a time.
Before that when Ermor stood alone and had zero chance of survival they sang a whole different tune.

Consider what would have happened had Ermor collapsed. Jotun = Jotun *2 or Pythium = Pythium *2. Now that's a scary thought, luckily for all I stand my ground and with help I may even survive this war whilst my allies grow to become super powers.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Greetings, IIRC after the intial count (above) the VP total was to have been maintained in the initial thread. WL, could you update please? :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Sure Aethyr. Thanks 4 the reminder.
Please bear in mind that I'm basically sharing my knowledge. There's no magic chart on the server that lists the VPs since we turned off capital VPs.

BTW, I'm not sure I'm that fond of this setting. It ends up generating bookkeeping hassle and everyone quickly learns where all the capitals are anyway. so what's the point?

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

just use capital vps, and set the goal to all, so the game does not end apruptly and you dont have to count manually. btw, asia twist does mark all capitals with a very big spot.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

good point.

And while I'm at it: Happy weekend guys, rest well and prepare for the epic battles next week will bring :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 13/16 players left
 

Well as a big fan of these settings myself, seeing as how I use them in all my newbie games, I thought I'd better defend them :) (even though I'm not in this game).

The settings themselves are fine, but there were two big errors made with this game.


1 - The map (if it's the default Asia Twist one) had known pre-set starting locations. One of the main ideas about not VP marking the capitals is that it helps stop rush nations bee-lining for the nearest crown, and forces them to actually find the capital of their nearest neighbour. (Since rush nations really shouldn't be given any extra help to crush others inside of 10 turns). This might only result in a few extra turns of delay for the rush nation, but given the likely lack of scouts in the first few turns, this could be critical. As anyone who has ever had to defend a rush knows all too well how much of a difference an extra few turns can be.

So for this 'rush-hindering feature' of these settings to work, you need to have a 3rd party arrange the start locations, and not give the final .map file used for the game to the players (as only the llamaserver needs the .map file). For those playing in the No Wankers Allowed game (or any of my newbie games), this is what I have done in these games (since I'm the non-playing admin of all these games). Of course, finding a 3rd party to arrange starting locations for hidden capitals is another matter. But one is needed for this 'rush-hindering feature' to work (unless you go with random starts, which are nowhere near as bad as some players make out. But that is just IMO of course)


2 - For some baffling reason, you are keeping a running record of the number of capitals that players currently own. Thereby punishing the players in-game who have bothered to put time, effort and resources into running constant surveillance operations on the capitals of the world, so that they always know when one changes hands, and as such if someone if getting too close to the winning line.

But doing this simply rewards the lazy players who can't be bothered to operate a proper scout network, or invest the gems into a Stone Sphere piggy-bank. As by effectively giving everyone back a VP graph in the OP, nobody has to be worried about someone suddenly capturing a load of capitals they haven't got a constant eye on, because they will now be given this info in the OP if this happens. (of course a big factor here is also a player's own view regarding 'hidden / stealth' wins, due to the other players being unaware that one player was close to winning. I think they're great personally, and a natural penalty for those players who don't pay attention to the larger picture. But others hate them for obvious reasons)


Of course, everyone has their own tastes and preferences for game settings, but as I said, being a fan of the ones in this game, I feel you are not really seeing the benefit of them because of the two mistakes that I have just outlined. Either of which on their own can seriously de-value these settings, but together almost certainly make the basic idea of "not marking capitals with VP's" pretty much pointless.

So I'd ask anyone to please not knock these settings unless you've actually tried them within the context of their proper set-up, and when they are WAD :) which is not the case here unfortunately :( (which is in no way a criticism of Wraithlord the admin, as a lot of game settings require both trial and error and experience in order to find out what is required to get the best out of them. And I've admined a lot of games)


Sorry for butting-in (I think it's a habit I really do have to stop :p)


ps. Just want to say thanks to WL and Ex for all the diplo posturing and wind-blowing on the thread. I had started to lose a little faith recently in no-diplo games, since my last few had been spoiled by a few factors that are less evident in diplo games. But seeing you two bash it out on the thread has starkly reminded me why I hate diplomacy so very very much, and as such all the reasons why no-diplo games simply rule.

So thanks for the reminder, and long live no diplomacy games!!!!

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

#1 is a good point if indeed turn 10 rushes are common. My personal experience doesn't suggest that this be the case.

#2 is also a good point. I put it for the players to vote and most wanted to make the list known. Please take into acct that we do play with graphs on, and VP victory condition, so the approach in this game was to feed the players with graphs info from the starters.

I played in two non graphs MP games and they were horrible b/c the assumption that all players would scout vigilantly did not hold water. What happened is that a nation would long run away with the game with scarce anyone taking note until it's too late. You could play with LA Ermor or R'lyeh and they'd become unstoppable but still most players would be unaware. It doesn't help that one or two players catch on as it's neigh impossible to convince the others. Note that I'm sure that the mix of players does make a difference here.

I think perhaps a # of provinces VC might make more sense for graphs on diplo games. Re. non graphs: I personally dislike them since they add a lot of work and allow nations to run away with the game. That said, I'd be willing to give it a retry, either as an admin or player or both.

I do agree that I absolutely like RAND game more, but then and again it's nice to enter the mud wrestling arena of diplo games and practice the tongue & finger muscles :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Hey, I foocking KNEW you loved that :D

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

In this game indies were at 9 so really early rushes were not as likely.

I can see why people get jaded with the manipulation, lying, recrimination and simple time that needs to be taken on diplomacy :) But it is voluntary. And I suspect it helps reduce drop outs. If you are well behind in a game it is easy to become disconnected to the game and this can leads to drop outs. Especially when such a player, after dozens of quick 'at peace' turns, is suddenly faced with attacks by far more powerful opponents and has to take a long time over his last few.

Scouting depends. How many indie scout provinces do you find? Can you build stone spheres? Do you have cheap researcher options at your none capital forts?

I think Calahan's ideal settings might work well for the players who are doing well in the game. But if you aren't it makes you blind and mute. Not so good. Of course my and Calahan's preferences probably reflect that he is a good player who is used to winning or challenging for the win and I am often, well, not ;)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

I find that I like both settings (diplo/non diplo) well enough as they provide a change of pace. What frustrates me sometimes with non diplo games is the inablity to trade. Usually this is not a game changer, but it has been my misfortune to be extremely unlucky in my site searching in several non diplo games, and I felt that if I just could have worked a few trades it.would.have.made.a.huge.difference.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Calahan is on point about VP, tho I think I was the one who suggested this setup and I had no idea there indeed where those spots that marked capitals on this map at the time.

But still, I was the only one opposed to keeping track of current VP, as I do too think that's free info for others that have invested far lesser resources.

Personally, I prefer no score graph games BECAUSE one can run away with the win. :)
Even more so no diplo games, partially because I hate diplo, therefor don't bother with it much and often get stuck on the losing team.
Isn't it nice when you have a nice lead and everyone is too afraid to attack you but can't call for help as they usually do? :)

As for rushers, I believe they are just as likely if not even more so with higher indies. Rush nations have no problem with high indies while others will have a harder time beating them.
I myself tried to rush Ulm as soon as I realized caps were marked (tho I did not know it was Ulm at the time), and was at his capital around turn 7-8 already. Those sacred chopping infantry of Ulm made me pull back and deal. :)
And still I managed to invade Pang around turn 15-ish. And than there were TC and Cealum... and now Ermor and Mictlan... wow :p

Anyway, the reason people do run away with the win is because there are always only a hand full of nations that play aggressively enough to gain a lead. After that, it's as much as eliminating those few nations of similar power to win the game.
The rest, which is ofter the majority of players wait to long to make war.

I personally feel that you have to be out of your first war by turn 30 or so. Than it's back to research/build phase.
The sooner you attack a nation the better. There really is no point in "preparing" as with every passing turn your enemy will be preparing as well and anticipating, or planning, an attack more and more. So the only logical thing to do is hit someone before they hit you. If you manage to invade someone by turn 15 they'll always be caught with their pants down, will need time to regroup while you take that time to raid some provinces and ensure a gold lead, which in the end is all you need to rush someone, even if a non bless nation, just brute force.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

And did you never experience an early rush that ended in bitter early war that no side could win???
In diplo game you have the option to negotiate peace and look 4 an easier target but in non-diplo you're stuck and most likely will lose the game.

I'd add to your suggestion that it pays to be aggressive when the expected war is not going to be fair. When you have a big advantage.

Naturally, to each his own but I personally like graphs on games with or w/o diplo. I think I'll more or less stick to those in the future :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Nope. :)

Interesting turn I must say. Flaming slingers a? Huh, I really expected something else with those gems sadly.
That was sure a lot of blood vines I lost this turn. And who would have expected AP, multiple attack, high strength blood vines wouldn't smack off mistform from those damn shinyas...

Btw, Ermor, it was fun watching 15 shadow vestals all trying to kill a paralyzed werewolf. :)

And really, Rlyeh?
You chose to attack me? I can't even begin to comprehend what a ridiculous choose that is.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

"Btw, Ermor, it was fun watching 15 shadow vestals all trying to kill a paralyzed werewolf. "
Well, they're great to begin with, with gift of health and your (apparent) dom push they are neigh invisible in melee.
I got lucky in this battle but your ally has scored some hits on me :)

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Fhtagn

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

TC has staled last turn. Is anyone in contact with him?- Is he also going to go MIA on us? :(

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Ulm (me) and Shinuyama is at war with him, and it doesn't look good for him. But as far as I know, he's still fighting. Our last exchanged pms was about a week ago I think.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

WL, I'd appreciate a 18h delay on the current turn, Im not sure I can make this turn otherwise.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Hosting postponed for GotMI by 18 hours. The game will now host at 12:50 GMT on Friday January 28th.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Rlyeh, your foolishness knows no boundaries.
Your intention was to grab my defenseless lands from me while I fight Ermor and Micltan, so as of this turn ALL my resources will be directed only at you. I give Mictlan and Ermor leave to proceed as they wish as you've just became my primary, or should I say only target.
I consider myself reasonable, but I dislike your conduct and your poorly placed aggression so your invading forces shall get an answer soon enough.

You have just ensured that Ermor wins this game.

Good luck to you, you will most certainly need it.
-Jotunheim-

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Don't worry, Rlyeh, Caelum is with you! :up:

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

so it seems my invasion force will have to return to the waters, while we will be watching your surrender to ermor.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

Wow, hold it a sec. brother. Ermor did not win this game, nor did R'lyeh ensure that.

He's doing something reasonable from his standpoint. If his conquest goes well he will have: a- land access b-lot's of lands, c- 1-3 VPs and all relatively easily attacking a nation that (although very strong) is busy on multiple fronts. In addition he will eliminate a very strong nation thus less competition for him to win, esp. after expanding so well.

Also, Ermor doesn't look to expand on the expanse of Jotun lands. All Jotun lands goes back to my allies. Ermor is only interested in ending the threat of the frozen giants with their hordes of vamps, dom push MO, GoH, recruit-able stealthy SCs and 3 VPs.

Ermor wishes for peace only but that can not be while treacherous Pythium goes on plotting and while the blood thirsty giants terrorize the nation and pray on the weak.

Dear allies, some tasks can not be left half done or they will come back to undo you. Once begun this road must be taken to it's very end - total defeat of Jotun.

The enemy's most potent weapon is to divide, scare & threaten us. Don't let that work for if we hesitate we will be the ones losing this war.

Re: GotM: Gardens of the Moon, vets, busy, 12/16 players left
 

And my giants will catch you and smash you against the waves Rlyeh.

Congrats Ermor, you amuse me with your diplomatic skills. Rlyeh just volunteered to sacrifice himself in your honor, much like Micltan did.

It seems everyone is happy in only doing your bidding. I would cherish such thralls if I had them.
I must say it is indeed laughable as how easily you convinced the world not to perceive you as a threat, and even more to join you.

Well, back to killing your minions now, I'll get around to you as well eventually.