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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. 7/18 players remain.
Congrats for the victory Executor!
Yes. I was Van. I wonder what were the telltale signs that gave me up? I knew you (Ulm) would win from very early on. I wanted to enter an early war against you but Eriu jumped me and no way I'd let someone attack me and get away w/ it. So I say screw the game I'm going to make Eriu pay for his stupid move and if Ulm wins (more easily than otherwise) then so be it. You are absolutely right about Ulm and I think llama is also in agreement so we will see a fix in next CBM. I've seen most nations fight very well and to the end. It was a high end game in terms of players skills and really enjoyed it (though I knew the end result from early on). Van is a solid nation now which is a good thing. Now I'm looking fwd to YARG4. Hope to see as many of you there. You too Executor - I just pray to fate that you don't get an OP nation :p |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
BTW, I had a strong suspicion you were Ulm b/c of the murderous effectiveness Ulm's armies exhibited. I'd have been surprised had another name came as Ulm leader :)
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Congrats, Executor! I've been keeping an eye on this game ever since I noticed mid-game that three nations that got boosts in the latest CBM were among the game leaders.
WL, I haven't played MA Van but based on my experiences with EA Van (not as good as MA IMO) I agree completely that they are a strong nation. What build did you go with? Light bless with good scales and some magic diversity? Exec, do you think the only problem with Ulm is their Forge? I wonder how many of the games they won since the release of 1.92 they ended up casting their Forge before the game was already decided. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Congratulations on the win!
I ended up with what is probably my least favorite nation in the game, got attacked and stuck in an early war that crippled me, accidentally started another war with a larger power through a movement mistake, and spent the rest of the game trying to figure out a way to be relevant. All in all, a good game. :) |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Congrats on the win Ex. When I subbed in (see next) I did think you were Van for a turn or two (mainly because I thought WL looked like Ulm given the battles I saw), but then a few signs pointed to you being Ulm. Can't remember what they were exactly, most likely is I'm fairly sure I've played more games with you than any other player, so if I can't spot you quickly by now then there's something wrong with me! (or you've managed to change styles!). After that I instantly nailed WL as Van, as I could see no way he was C'tis (graphs indicated C'tis was way too turtley and passive for WL). And there was no way I had taken over for WL as my nation was a joke which WL would never has signed his name to...
I subbed in as Svarogia for half a dozen turns or so, entirely to repay a favour or two to rdonj from previous YARG games. The sudden upward turn-around in the graphs, followed by an equally sudden and rapid decline, will likely give away the turns I played ;) The nation was a complete mess though, and no idea how it had gained as much land as it had. The original player, whoever it was, also completely failed to notice in pre-game testing that Svagoria's freespawn chaff has .66gp upkeep. Which on top of the hundreds of Cav units, and (to me) a useless "feck diversity just take scales" build meant the nation was swimming in horrendous upkeep and sucking hard from the well of stink when I took over. Not my worst ever sub experience, but certainly my worst "important nation" sub ever. I won't go into ranty detail on the nation or the turns I played, but in brief I turned the Eriu war around to the point of booting them off land and into the sea (also had my highest ever single turn fort gain at one point :)). And was all ready to turn on Ulm when I had to sub-out and leave that for my successor(s). And apols for the clashes Van, and the things I killed (thanks for the Arch Devil though). Although I really have to ask why you moved your death stack towards the Eriu cap after taking that Eriu fort on our border? As that sent me such a negative signal that it meant instead of moving all my stacks towards Ulm as I had planned, I had to re-route them to the Eriu cap as I thought you'd had a brain freeze and was trying to challenge me for it. This resulted in a 2-turn delay of a strike on Ulm. Doubt it would have made much difference, but it certainly made some. (partly because I would have still been playing to do the first strike, and first two turns of war) No idea how the Svagoria VPs fell at the end. I left whoever with 2 Master Enslavers that I was hoping would have been able to deal with an army of Ulm national troops, and enough Astral mages to deal with solo SC storm attempts. But then not too surprised Svarogia were the ones coughing up the VP's, since as far as I could tell the nation was just an illusion of strength built on wet tissue paper. And I'm very certain Ulm or Van could have walked through Svarogia with ease at the point I joined the frey. (and even when I left they were no match for the top two) |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Good game everyone, and congrats to executor for the win. With turns like that, you really do need those week long hosting timers :P
Here's the list of nations: 1. WraithLord Vanheim, Arrival of Man 2. Stagger Lee Arcoscephale, The Old Kingdom 3. TwoBits Svarogia, Dark Forests by Executor 4. Executor Ulm, Forges of Ulm 5. wonderloss Bandar Log, Land of the Apes 6. ghoul31 Abysia, Blood and Fire 7. Slobby Shinuyama, Land of the Bakemono 8. don_Pablo C'tis, Miasma 9. danbo Ashdod, Reign of the Anakim 10. tratorix T'ien Ch'i, Imperial Bureaucracy 11. sansanjuan Arga Dis, Blood of Warriors by Sombre 12. GFSnl Marignon, Fiery Justice 13. mockingbird Pangaea, Age of Bronze 14. Deadnature Pythium, The Second Empire by Burnsaber 15. Curious Yellow Eriu, Last of the Tuatha 16. Aethyr Man, Tower of Avalon 17. yandav Shangri-La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters originally by Nounours, extended and maintained by Globu 18. Bullock Al-Nadim, The Thousand and One Nights by elmokki I don't have all of the subs written down in an easily accessible location, but the last three subs for svarogia were, in order, Calahan, BlanketThief, and Korwin. 3V4JKZ2 also subbed for svarogia at one point, and StaggerLee took over control of vanheim for WL for a few turns a while back. And Tratorix subbed for eriu after it had taken a good beating. Any other subs, I'm sorry if I've missed you, but you are all appreciated and commended for your work in keeping this mammoth game running! |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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van, King of Primordial Waters, King of Many Names, Councilor of Gods, Ruler of the Ocean's Surface Vanheim, Middle Era Father of Winters (Body 1561, 88 hits) Magic: Air 2 Water 9 Dominion 8 Scales: Order 3 Productivity 3 Cold 3 Growth 1 Misfortune 1 Magic 1 Imprisoned It worked excellently and Van was on the top for a good part of the early+mid game and probably caused the most PITA to Ulm (AC). I made the mistake of summoning the blood royalty. In hindsight I should have taken more cost efficient summons and earlier AC. But certainly MA Van is a strong nation as should be (nation of fierce vikings should be nothing else). |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Wow, we can finally talk about this game now?
First off, congrats Executor on your win. I played Eriu from the start until turn 53. One of the main lessons for me from this game was that I don't really have the stomach for lategame micro with large empires, so I burned out and subbed out. No more games with more than 6-8 players for me. In my mind the turning point in the game was about turn 40? or so, when the Ulm-Ashdod war was winding down with Ulm on top and with an active Forge. At that point, Vanheim and Svarogia both attacked me and I felt at the time this ensured that Ulm would win. Ulm was left to turtle with the Forge and secure their holdings. It's weird that Wraithlord rememembers it like I attacked him. I had just absorbed Man and the furthest thing from my mind at the time was war with Vanheim. The nation I wanted to go after was C'tis actually, but being attacked by Vanheim and Svarogia (which were both about my size) sealed my fate. The war started out okay, winning a few big battles but started losing a lot of small ones. Micro weariness really set in for me at that point and I didn't play as well as I could/should have. My "war" with Pangea was the funniest part of the game for me. He couldn't find a way to kill my thugs in the field, and I had little hope of storming his maenad-filled forts with my commanders-only strategy. I took one fort by building like 5 siege golems, but didn't have a chance of putting a dent in his capital. Funny that he managed to hang on until the end of the game. Made some mistakes with globals during the game as well. I tried overwriting Pangea's Mother Oak with like 60 extra gems, but didn't work - after that I really struggled with nature income. When war with Svarogia/Vanheim set in I tried casting Mechanical Militia, thinking it would slow down raiding - but it never came online, someone else cast a global and mine just fizzled. By the way the 11th hour switch to CBM 1.92 kind of screwed my plans, removing awe from the Tuatha commanders. My testing showed that in order for the tuatha to be effective as expanding thugs against indies 9 with CBM 1.92, they needed to be able to self-buff barkskin. Therefore I went with an awake master druid with E9N4 + some astral/fire and terrible scales, so that I could research alteration 1 early enough to have a decent expansion. The forge bonus on the female commanders was a decent compensation though, which I made good use of later on. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Curious Yellow, I'm curious (but not yellow ;) ) why did you attack me?- You and Ulm were both in great position and the "right" move for you was to duke it out w/ him.
It was obvious to the players that Ulm was OP so you would have gotten help for sure. I was just waiting for you to make that move and join w/ you. But instead you attacked Van - a strong nation w/ excellent income, strong armies and gr8 blood income. What was your rational anyway?- Nullify us both so Ulm would have a red carpet to victory? Calahan, I moved that stack b/c Ctis was massing armies on my borders in that area. I wanted a military presence in the area so that my lands wouldn't seem like easy picking. I had more "death" stacks as Ulm has found out when he invaded me. In-fact IIRC we only had one real army vs. army battle and the Vans won the day. Taking into acct significant research + equipment advantage to Ulm I'd say yes, the buggers made me proud and earned their place at Valhalla :) |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Curious Yellow, you attacked me first. I remember thinking WTF, now why did he do that?- He just signed off Ulm's victory :mad:
Savorgia joined after I reacted to your attack. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Thanks everyone.
Personally, I think you play too cautiously WL. That's something that stuck with me from our former games. I watched every single one of your battle from turn 30 onward. Actually i watched the entire map for quite some time. I had a few dozen crystal orbs and a very extensive scout/spy system going. There was nothing I didn't see. Also monitoring the rest helped identify you too. Valerius, apart from the Forge, which I think is the biggest problem, I also would blessing of steel too powerful. A handful of flail infantry had no problem dealing with indea 9 from the start under blessings of steel. Having a 24 protection troop is too much from start I think. That small amount of diversity with smiths (20% A/S/F) is huge too. Not that I'd suggest removing it, it just opens up a load of new options. New forging possibilities and communions mostly (either with s smiths or trough matrixes). In any case I'd say Ulm is one of the best MA nation, if not all era nations. mockingbird, god damn I hated you dude. All I wanted was those two slots for global spells. I just couldn't figure out a way to kill your pretender not to mention breach the fort. It would have taken me a hundred gate cleavers. Calahan, I noticed instantly that a new player had taken over Svarogia. You even got me scared there for a moment but then I realized there wasn't anything really dangerous in your possession. As to how Svarogia fell and how I obtained the 3 or rather 4 last VPs; Shiny cap was the first to go. It was rather easy to take as Shiny had most of his troops in the adjacent fort. The second fort, Eriu, fell to about 500 teleported troops (gate stone and astral travel) and a few mages and a SC. There was nothing in the fort to protect it and no troops near so it was easy taking. The other Svarogia fort was Man, which fell to troops, commanders, mages, thugs and SCs. Not too large an army though and it was a tough battle too. Could have lost that one. The third fort for the win was Al Nadin (C'tis). There was no chance in hell any army could have protected that fort. I had just too many stuff in that army. And the fail safe capital was Bandar Log. (Van) Also a heck of a lot of stuff in it. Curious Yellow, and there I was actually thinking on joining the war on your side until Shiny attacked me. Well, rather tried to sneak in troops into my lands which resulted in me attacking him. I even gave him a turns change to withdrew the troops but he moved them further in. Actually, the only nation I attacked in this game was TC. And that was a hilarious war. I attack TC, Ashdod joins in from the other side and grabs a few provinces. Than Ashdod completly ignores TC and attacks me while I'm still in was with TC. (Note that TC is right in the middle of us). And we spend the next 15 turns fighting around and over TC until I managed to kill him off eventually with superior research. WL, as per that battle, I didn't expect you to have that many (hidden) stuff there. Especially after losing those Treants and some other stuff the turn before I think? Anyway, it was a nice battle, and you won it but I think you actually suffered more loses from it than me. :) I'd kinda like an underdog nation in the next game. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Let there be no doubt. On turn 45 CY's Eriu attacked me in two provinces: 155 + 142.
This in a no diplo game is a one way ticket to war and given the context a fairly stupid move. You may have won the game or had a much better chance had you attacked Ulm instead. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
"Personally, I think you play too cautiously WL. That's something that stuck with me from our former games. I watched every single one of your battle from turn 30 onward. Actually i watched the entire map for quite some time. I had a few dozen crystal orbs and a very extensive scout/spy system going. There was nothing I didn't see.
Also monitoring the rest helped identify you too. " You're probably right. I play chess a lot and that game taught me the benefits of caution. Perhaps it doesn't translate well to dom... "WL, as per that battle, I didn't expect you to have that many (hidden) stuff there. Especially after losing those Treants and some other stuff the turn before I think? Anyway, it was a nice battle, and you won it but I think you actually suffered more loses from it than me. " Yes the treants were lost b/c of your unexpected attack. But in this battle my losses were not big, my dead commanders were reanimated due to LaD spell. And I got a huge list of "xyz got this and that item" messages :D |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Yeah, I assumed you picked up a nice amount of my items.:mad:
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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I was wondering why Shiny had that mass stock of troops (vamps mainly) next to their cap? Was there any purpose for that you know? So did Svar send nothing to defend those VP forts? Did you see no sign of the Master Enslavers? No sign of the Grend Prophet via the Boots of Planes I pinched? No mass arrivals of any A2 cap mages? Nothing at all showed up? No Demon armies? No nothing? How sad :( |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Your build is similar to my EA Van build (bless + scales) except I went with E4N4 instead, which gave me a couple more scales. But I did end up regretting not getting some S on my pretender since I could find absolutely no S mages throughout the game. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
No idea why Shiny never used his vamps.
I think his vamp queen met an untimely end in one battle where he tried to RoS or earthquake my large army but failed due to a first turn army of gold and got killed in the process. I had converted the province by that time. There was an attempt to stop my army at Eriu but it failed. I don't think Svarogia realized I was going for the win until it was too late. No teleported mages also. As for Man capital, there wasn't much stuff, but there were S mages and the master enslave Arch Devil there. Mainly, I had to defeat my own army there to capture the fort. :) As for the boots of plains. **** that was a stupid mistake! My Bane Lord got attacked twice that turn by Horrors (bet you didn't know you could get attacked multiple times by horrors under AC? Well, neither did I! Nearly lost my pretender that way). Managed to kill a Doom Horror in the first round but got killed in the second by a regular large Horror. Anyway, I changed his damn battle orders to attack instantly, forgetting Armor of Virtue would not react in this case since it has a retarded AoE1 returning autocast mechanism that takes a turn.:( Oh, yes, btw, (this one can go into the Hall of Doh) I also managed to lose Al Kazim to a bunch of tritons. Yes, an equipped buffed Al Kazim lost to about 50 tritons due to a lucky shot and damn poison. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Turn 67 - You captured the Eriu fort at 169 with a significant army, and captured 156 with a bunch of Treants (a former Svag province it seems given site search info). While on the same turn I stormed the Eriu cap. Turn 68 - I capture the Eriu cap and a huge force of yours arrives in 156 (the prov next to Eriu cap), made up of mainly the large force that captured 169. I am then forced to converge a large force on the Eriu cap to hold the walls in case you attack. (I was seriously thinking of attacking Ulm this turn while Shiny still had some life left, but this made me forget all about that) Turn 69 - Your large force moves away to 164 (I think) and I send my converged force in Eriu out back in the direction of Ulm where they mostly came from. So it was your large troop arrival in 156 on turn 68 that sent me the wrong vibes. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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I agree that the better magic diversity is a big deal but worth keeping. It's also occurred to me that because of the way forging costs round Ulm comes out ahead with the removal of hammers when it comes to inexpensive items because their forging costs don't go up by as much as other nations. For instance, without hammers 5 gem items increase by 1 gem for Ulm but 2 gems for non-forge bonus nations, which is a relative advantage for Ulm. Btw, Exec, how much did you use Iron Angels? I think this is a very useful game to provide feedback on 1.92 changes. Quote:
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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I like the idea of a cripple rand. I vote for that next. I actually never got a chance to use Iron Angles sadly. Initially spent all my gems on the Forge, than on forging than managed to cast Earth Well. I hoped to start summoning them at that point but than Eriu overcast it. After than I figured it's best just to stockpile earth gems in case someone overcasts or dispels my Forge. Always kept about 300 in reserve before the AC came up. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
"Turn 68 - I capture the Eriu cap and a huge force of yours arrives in 156 (the prov next to Eriu cap), made up of mainly the large force that captured 169. I am then forced to converge a large force on the Eriu cap to hold the walls in case you attack. (I was seriously thinking of attacking Ulm this turn while Shiny still had some life left, but this made me forget all about that)
" :o what a sad misunderstanding. I had 0 intention of taking anything from you. Not w/ Ulm easily getting away w/ the game. How stupid and short sighted would such a move be??? All I wanted from early on is attack Ulm. I was happy I finished conquering two nation by turn 40+ and were it not to Eriu attacking me I'd have attacked Ulm. Now, for sure w/o help Van would have perished but I gathered that any sensible player would join against Ulm. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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So there was literally no other purpose for those troops being there I could see, and moving in a "towards me and away from Ulm" direction, other than having eyes on the Eriu cap. Perhaps another great example of how even one misjudged troop signal can have a real unwanted impact on another player. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Another interesting thing about this game is that you had several mod nations. Any feedback on how they fit in? I have admit that I'm wary of mod nations because despite their frequently excellent quality, I'm never sure what OP surprises are hidden inside them. I think part of it is just mod makers getting caught up in their creation - it's tough to leave things out, not because they aren't thematic, but because it would just be too much. But I may just be scarred from seeing rdonj's Itza and Exec's Stygia in the Tourmaline game. And I thought my own nation of Haida Gwaii and Alugra, that defeated me, were plenty strong as well. The only one that I remember thinking was weak were the Ogres because they were so one dimensional - really tough troops but absolutely horrible magic IIRC (this was several years ago so this may be out-of-date from how these nations are now).
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
There's a lesson to be learned here for me. In RAND games be careful even w/ how, where and when your armies move.
I still haven't heard any explanation from Curious Yellow as to why he attacked me. I'm really curious to know what was his rational. In first YARG a player subbed for just a turn or two and then he (the sub) attacked me thus starting a war. When the original player took over (two turns later IIRC) the war was already raging and he had no idea, until the game ended, of what the sub did. This episode was also game changing since we both controlled strong nations that could have made a big difference talk about :doh: |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
There were 5 mod nation and they all seemed to have died early on without much success with the exception of Svarogia. But in all honesty Svarogia did have one huge advantage, the 25 range enslave mind weapon on a cheap mage. That's being fixed however.
Though I think apart from that my nation is more or less balanced. However I guess I can't really be objective with being the creator. First YARG was you against Dimaz if I remember correctly? C'tis vs Bogarus? |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
WingedDog, see: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...&postcount=408
Edit: yes, good memory was C'tis vs Bogarus. Ctis had the undying blue dragon of thousand afflictions. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
I plan for YARG IV to be in LA. No mod nations. Latest CBM.
Whoever wants in can say so now. I'll put up a new thread in a day or two. Given the blood soaked tradition of YARG games I think we have every reason to believe YARG IV would be action packed and fun. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
I've already posted some Svar bugs for Ex to fix (no prizes now Ex for guessing how I noticed them :)). Guess I could give some feedback on them as well when I get chance. They didn't seem too out of whack to me though, but hard to judge from what I saw, although perhaps a freespawn strat for them will be good once they don't have crippling upkeep :)
Mages felt a little on the cheap side perhaps. Sacred S2 with FTelling for 130gp. I know I would have been spamming the crap out of them if I played them from the get go. And D1 with decent chances to get D2S1B1 for just 80gp, again that feels a bit cheap to me. Checked out the various summons when I subbed in, but they all had upkeep so were instantly off-putting to a nation dying from upkeep. Objectively though...(this is going by mix of the game and the newest version I downloaded today) Todoroc - A sacred unit with fear and costing 7D for 5. Not the best stats, but not bad either, and at that price they are cheap and fear stacking can be huge. Conj 4 feels too early for fear stackers, and even sooner for an Astral nation that is likely going for PoTS/LoNS early on anyway. Drekavac - Seem like a more mage turn effective Shade. Not sure how good their weapons are though as didn't test them. If they are good they could be too cheap and too mage turn effective. Ala - A4 flying stack of HP for 32A. What's not to like. Probably too cheap for an A4, but then it is an Airy nation, so it might be ok to have it cheap as a national special (and having a summon like this cheap is not the same as having a troop/Sc cheap as not much point spamming A4 buffers.) Moria - I saw no use for these at all unless I'm missing something about them. As 16N for what is basically a Bane Venom Charm is very pricey (and it triggers upon summing rather than giving you a turn to move them out as you can with the item). Talason - The spell version is pointless as they come as freespawn on a unit you are very very likely to summon. Unit itself seems fine as it's just a buffed Ghoul with CR. Babica - Cause unrest (text, not tested) so will have niche uses. Karakon - Same as above but with assasian. Navi + Vampir - Both will likely see a lot of usage. Both are probably way too cheap, but then everything in Blood is way too cheap, so it's currently like pricing Ming cases in a $1 shop. Vampirs will see more use than Navi's though as hunters and spawners, so they are more in need of increase (maybe 66, the old Vamp price). A flying B2 thug with fear 5 and a load of HP for 45BS. Must be too cheap, but then more expensive and they start competing with other dirt cheap Blood stuff. Honestly not sure. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Re: Wraithlord.
I had to really go back and look at the turns, because it happened half a year ago and I couldn't remember exactly how our war started except being sure that you started it. At turn 43, I was fighting C'tis and we were both finishing off Marignon. Turn 44 you suddenly teleported in and took provinces 142 and 155. Granted none of them belonged to me at the time (they were Marignon's), but suddenly you took two provinces that pretty clearly were going to fall to me as spoils of war, and the two provinces didn't even connect to the rest of your empire! I felt I couldn't really let that stand, but didn't want to go to proper war with you. So on turn 45 I attacked just those two provinces to take them back and hoped it sent a message that you couldn't just snipe provinces from my back yard like that. Apparently you took it as a declaration of war, but in my mind it was just a natural response to your actions. As for why I failed to attack Ulm - I wasn't really positioned to do so. Thing is that Pangea wasn't dead and my grasp of the Eastern part of my lands was really tenuous. I had no forts there and didn't think I could hold Ulm/Ashdod back if they attacked me. On the other hand I was bordering C'tis who had three capitals and I thought I had a decent chance of taking him down. So to me he was a natural target - and I was really hoping you and Svarogia would team up and go against Ulm. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Stygia, on the other hand, remains exactly as it was and is a testament to Amos mods everywhere. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Game over congratz Executor!
Mmmm recap, pretender wise took the VQ with earth/air/death/blood, and went with Baalz goblin strat. The idea for the VQ was to get vampires plus have a nice immortal teleporting rain of stones caster. Issues with the VQ: the domsummon for vamps is incredibly low - sucked balls really, the vast majority of those vamps she blood hunted for and summoned. Near the end when fighting Exec I decided to get father illearth instead of a vamp lord...big mistake as father illearth was taken! :doh: And with that I just had my VQ to lead my vamps around...and I felt she would be better off in defense to cast spells then run off with vamps that Exec could just slaughter at his whim. Early progression - launched a double assault on Arco and Arga then Ashdod came in to which my reaction was screw you if you think you're taking Arga lands! Which led to Ulm and I beating down Ashdod. That brought it to mid game Van Sva and Eriu were fighting one another Ulm was just chilling and so was Ctis. From my point of view Ulm was the leader and I felt the desire to take him on but how? No diplo and Ctis apparently turtling and Ulm being big and bad. I then summoned some Harvesters of Sorrow with the idea of making Exec think that Ctis or Van was messing with him, geared em up and snuck them through Vans lands to have them approach Ulm from Van/Ctis territory. Sadly I got over ambitious and just when they were right there Exec caught me sneaking in some largeish goblin raiders and war was on with no help in sight. :doh: Then having a good idea that it was Exec I was against I felt it fitting that I try an aggressive volcanic erution attack to mess with his eco. (still playing mistletoe because of your arma spam Exec!) That didn't seem to work out I figure Exec just cranked his taxes because I noticed no noticeable drop in his income, and I hit him with ALOT of volcanic eruptions. Mono a mono it was no contest. Grendels and Treants running around, large Ulmish armies with tons of commanders with bows and army of gold plus other buffs. I had nothing to fight that. All I could do was raid and try to force Exec to take one province at a time. Which as some of you have asked about me not sending my other force to defend the cap...there was no point in doing so. His army would have won and then I would have been truly done. Atleast by keeping that other force alive I still had something to harass/threaten Exec with. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Tourmaline, fun game. Battle of the OP. Who was the dude that took over for me and managed to lose a dozen immortal crazy powerful SCs?
Calahan, so I guess in short everything is too cheap? I tend to agree with this statement upping the price won't solve the problem. I priced most stuff compared to CBM and other popular active mods. If I increase the cost on some stuff they are just going to fade away I think. So it's hard to find balance. Todoroc should get a slight cost increase and be moved up a notch in conjuration though. Though they are a bit hard to use since they increase unrest and can be used periodically since they have spring power. Also, any arrow fire is just murderous for them since they have no armor and low protection. Sudjajas were specifically priced upon MA TC mages. That I remember, comparing them to Geomancer which I still find better overall. Svarogia has another big flaw with all the mages being demons. Ala got improved now when there are no hammers. A mobile staff of storms for 32 gems. A hammered staff of storms was 17 gems before. The A4 I've added just. So like I said it's all quite relative. Vampir was based on LA Ulm vampires. Though in truth mine are better. And this was when regular vampire were 70ish slaves. I doubt they would have been a good option had they been more expensive. As for Drekavac, I think they are excellent but people think they are bad on the other hand. I consider them a much better version of shades since that one shot fear attack can insta rout an army. Mora mage, you're the first one to say they are any good. Most people complained how they are useless without blood rodes for blood hunting. Perhaps they are on the cheap side at 75 gold for the magic they can get randomly. Good point on the Moria. Navi should have some nice options with communions. As they are now I think they're good. They were probably overpriced before the blood summon price increase. It's hard to compare one of them to a 66 blood slave Ice Devil. At least I think so. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the feedback as always but there are a lot of things to take into consideration when balancing prices. In any case I'll take these suggestion into consideration before for the new game. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
I found it curious those Harvester emerged where they did. Figured you moved them trough C'tis land but didn't understand to what purpose? Good to know. :)
Yes, Ashdod made some very funky moves. Already fully engaged in war with me he moved onto Arga Dis as well. Maybe he was just overconfident he could kill us both. The volcanic eruptions killed quite a lot actually! Ashdod, TC and my cap were bellow 10000 pop. And at least a dozen other high pop lands were hit multiple times as well. I think you killed close to 100000. But I tried to tax out any gold site I found and taxing out your provinces helped keep the illusion there was little damage. But even after most of your lands were captured my income was barely bigger than when I attacked you. I got the feeling you were just waiting to get killed or hoping help would come once those 5 armies rolled into your territory. :) |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
That was Septimius Severus. My favorite moment was when he jumped one onto an unscripted and ungeared wraithlord I had in my territory (I couldn't care less if it died as I was moving it to my cap) and it killed the immortal SC with skelly spam.
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
C’tis joins the congratulations to Executor!
Also I can’t but beg your pardon for my passive play for the last 30 turn (or so). I was pressed by RL but did not want to leave the game. Spending no more than 20 min for turn hurt me a lot (f.e. casting Earth well under AC I gave S gems but was mistaken with battle-spell scripting and the order to cast Returning was given to another mage but not the needed one). I saw the necessity to attack Ulm early. But the first time it was aborted by Eriu (our war started with his cloud-trapezing ang killing 6 poison golems kitted out to deal with armies of Marignon but not with thugs). That was too painful for that moment. Later I dragged out because of shortage of time for MM. Attacking me by Eriu was unexpected but explicable. As for his attack vs Vanheim and Svarogia were thought to be just suicidal. One of the most funny part of the party was regular duels of my pretender vs Hunter of heroes. Thanks to horror-marking by Marignon I remember ~5 visits of Hunter of heroes, ~3 of Eater of Gods and many of simple horrors. :) Speaking of YARG4 I’d like to join but will have to skip it if you eager to start soon. It would be ideally for me to start in August. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
It's over? Well done, Executor!
Yeah, I was Svagoria. And Calahan's comments, while typically acerbic :p , were fairly spot on - I didn't really know what the hell I was doing. This was actually the first mod nation I've ever played in MP, and definitely the first look I'd ever had at Svagoria. So yeah, as the game progressed, I really had no idea which direction I should be heading in. Oh, and I did not know that Svagoria's free-spawn had an Upkeep cost! Damn, would have been nice to figure that out earlier in the game... Add to that, I was in the midst of some severe Dominions burnout. That's why I had Rdonj find a sub, because I knew someone could do better with Svagoria than my half-assed, partially on autopilot leadership. So I'm not surprised that under Calahan's superior leadership, Svagoria was able to mount a surge. Oh, as far as war decision making, I too was hoping folks would go for Ulm sooner. I was really disappointing when I saw Van and Eriu go at it, and I thought the only chance would be for Eriu to get put down quickly (seeming the weaker of the two), so the survivors could face Ulm before it was too late, so I jumped in against Eriu as well. Eriu proved a tough nut to crack though, and my flailing around with crap like mounted archers with Flaming Arrows vs. Storm/Arrow Fend did not help :( Oh well, not sure what could have been done against Ulm even with a quick victory over Eriu and a fully engaged C'tis. But I'm glad Svagoria and Van as least gave Executor a little run for his money :) |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
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Regardless of this, in non diplo games if I get attacked then it's war. Plain and simple. Did it not occur to you that this will be the end result? |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
rdonj, many thanks for your superb administration of the game and thank you all for the game!
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Sorry about that Twobits. That was a, rather big, mistake by me. I was misinformed but I should still have tested this out so it's only me to blaim in the end.
WL, I'm pretty sure I would have attacked you too under those conditions. Grabbing provinces doesn't look especially friendly and inspiring to me. An example must be made! |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Even at the cost of starting a war you cannot win and surely losing the game?
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Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Probably. I've been known to do stuff against my better judgement.
Fairly sure I managed to effectively eliminate myself at least a couple of times out of principle and revenge. |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
I'm with Ex as well WL. I hate province poaching as both the attacker (in most cases apart from as a rusher) and the defender (in most cases and especially as rush defender).
As the attacker (but not as a rusher, as rushing has special conditions) it means someone is basically saying to me "Oh hi there, you've done all the hard work in killing that guy, so do you mind awfully if I help myself to a few provs by joining the war at the 11th hour and denying you of some spoils?". That's like an action movie where the Cavalry arrives just as all the fighting ends and the movie is fading out to the closing credits. With in this case the Cavalry expecting to take a share of the glory. So if I was in clean-up mode in a RAND game, and someone suddenly poached a few provinces, especially if they were well out of their zone, then I'd likely react with potential hostilitiy as well, and do exactly as CY did. Capture the poached provinces /only/ and see if the poacher wanted to make anything of it. As if I wanted to start a war, and had the capability to launch a huge first strike, then /only/ going for the poached provinces should send a pretty clear message of my intentions IMO. As if I had really wanted a war then I certainly wouldn't have started it in such an underwhelming fashion, and for that reason my actions should be fairly clear in that I was only (re)claiming provinces that I felt I had a very strong right to, or very strong need for (eg. empire split in half without them. Or precious resource, such as Astral mage for non-Astral nation) If the poaching was just of some stray provs well inside the poachers borders, meaning it was just a border straightening excercise, then I might turn a blinder eye. But otherwise no. Far too many players are opportunists when it comes to pinching others prey, and innocently think there's no harm in grabbing a tiny slice of the pie for themselves. Never the case in my experience. And as defender I hate it even more, especially in rushes. In two RAND games I was fending off a powerful nation when poachers turned up to make my life harder (impossible) by squeezing my income and cutting off my counter attack options, which did nothing except make the attackers life easier. The theory is that you're depriving the rusher of extra provinces should they win, but I'm fully convinced now, after being the unsuccessful rush defender twice, that this is just BS. As the rusher is likely happy to have a few less provs to reduce the effect of the leaders tag his rush will have, and so reduce the chance of a ganging. (I know I've been happy to see poachers when I've rushed). Plus as the rusher a few less provs means less time needed to clean-up and move-on, and less provs for the defender means less resistance and so easier to take down. And whenever I see this happen, a few less provs from the rusher has never once weakened the rusher, as if they've had the capability to rush someone, then when they want more provinces they simply declare war on their next target and take them. They couldn't care less if their rush netted them only 10 of the original 12 provs their target had. The capital is all a rusher really cares about, and making sure they take it asap so that they don't get bogged down in a prolonged first war. And often the rushers next target is the poacher themselves who conveniently moved their borders closer to the rushers force sitting in the newly aquired capital, and doing so allows them to reclaim the poached provicnes as well. Two birds with one stone, how convenient :re: Too much poaching gets done as an automatic responce to seeing a neighbour going down. Once again showing Dom players are generally poor at making strategic decisions, and often act well in advance of doing any actual thinking (RTS syndrome perhaps). The only thinking they tend to do is after the game in hindsight "yeah looking back now I shouldn't have done that obviously stupid thing. I really should have thought more about it at the time, but I just thought what the heck". |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
WraithLord, I think this highlights the difficulty of communication in a no-diplomacy game and trying to get your actions to speak for you.
In your world, this happened: Turn 44: Vanheim: "Hey Eriu, do you want to go to war with me?" Turn 45: Eriu: "Yep" Turn 46+: Vanheim: "Then war you shall have!" In my world, this happened: Turn 44: Vanheim: "Hey Eriu, can I grab these two provinces that rightfully belong to you?" Turn 45: Eriu: "Nope" Turn 46+: Vanheim: "This means war! Blood and sulphur will rain from the sky! I will shove storm demons so far up your posterior that you will be sneezing lightning bolts! You will rue this day, rue it I say!" |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
@ Twobits.
Lol, at one point I was getting so frustrated with the position that I started to convince myself that the original player had some clairvoyancey skills and knew that I would be taking over for them at some point, and so initiated a cunning plan to get back at me for something :) With my fixation in particular being on the S5 Oracle. As the only reason I could see for S5 was to piss me off with being so close to being a gem Wish caster, and yet so far without being able to get my hands on those precious artefact boosters. And the only Level 9 hit was Alt, to further dangle the S5 non-Wish capable Oracle in my face! If S6+ then perfect, S4- and I wouldn't care. But S5, S-fecking-5!!! I felt like a donkey chasing a S9 carrot :deadhorse: |
Re: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76
Ok. There's a lesson I learned the hard way. I'll make sure no to make the same mistake again.
Basically I misjudged CY's reaction and over-reacted to it. Now, to some fun guessing game. What would have happened had me and Eriu hadn't gone to war? Who would've attacked Ulm first? I know I was afraid to do so b/c I didn't know whether the others would join me or attack me instead. |
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