Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings.

I have been suffering through a few computer problems as of late and haven't really had much time to work on the Mod in the Last week or so. I'll try and update as soon as possible.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am afraid that he will not be able to do this. He is going to be using new components and facilities for his mod. In order to get the AI to use these new items, it must be customized to do so.

But rest assured, if there is a will, I am sure Captain K will figure it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed, it is better to have all components and technologies in place. Adapting TDM Ai will not be a problem after that. I can try to fix some AIs once mod is more or less will take shape.

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My major concern with this mod is that little bastard will try to shut it down once he discovers that some ships are not for his liking.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. OK, i just thought it was possible. Anyway, that's one hell of a job then.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm looking forward to your mod. Anyway, i'm not knowledgable in the area of modding but couldn't you start of your mod by taking ai from say the TDM mod? Maybe other parts could be taken from various mods and then tweaked. This would speed up development, no?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am afraid that he will not be able to do this. He is going to be using new components and facilities for his mod. In order to get the AI to use these new items, it must be customized to do so.

But rest assured, if there is a will, I am sure Captain K will figure it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A couple of things. If the crew rebels/ is captured, they will not go into withdrawl, they will stop being Dominion (or whatever) and start being Abbidon (or whomever their new empire is). That means that they will lose all of their old empire's traits and take on all of their new empire's traits (with the exception of atmosphere). So they would lose the to-hit penalty.

Also, I didn't see anything that granted immunity (even partial) from crew insurrection/(psy converter thingy I can't remember the name of).

Sorry to burst your bubble. (Unless, of coarse, I'm completely wrong about how the game works...)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hm. So you're right. While a frustration to my evil plans to intorduce the racial trait of Addiction, how about this... Give the racial trait access to a special subset of "druggy crew quarters" with the large penalty. Then restrict them from using the normal crew quarters (as per P&N normal, nomad and pirate traits). This way they must build ships with a drug dependent crew. Then give them the drug synth lab components as per my Last post.
Now when their ships are taken over the crew will remain drug dependent even though their racial traits have changed.
Alternatively you could give them a new set of ships and exclude them from using the normal shipset.

Aside: do they become "Abbidon" in terms of racial characteristics, or do they take on a neutral set of racial traits?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True. I mis-spoke in my attempt to be metaphorical http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . It isn't so much that they would be immune to capture/insurrection, but that when they do fall prey to it, the captured ships will be seriously hobbled in combat because of the penalties for drug withdrawl. As such they won't pose as serious a threat to their parental race.

Now, would this work?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

There is another problem unfortunately. Namely, that 65% attack defense mod will probably apply to the enemy as well..

Phoenix-D

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Right, right....

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Oh, but of course...

i) make the racial trait give 65% combat bonus
ii) the race only gets "addicted crew" components with the -50% combat bonus. This equals a total of +15%
iii) when the ship is captured it will revert to another race type (neutral or otherwise) and lose the 65% racial combat bonus, but suffer the -50% combat bonus due to withdrawl.

Now unfortunately we've lost the drug synthesis lab component http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

How about this (does anyone really want this thing besides me? cuz otherwise this is a little pedantic)...

i) racial trait gives 45% bonus to combat. So make it cost the same amount of Racial Points as if the player had bought 15 points of both space combat attack and defense.
ii) can build drug synth lab component (ship and/or base) for 15% bonus to combat. Make it a relatively large component that costs a fair bit of organics.
iii) "addicted crew" components give a -45% combat bonus.

So now the posibilities are as follows:

1) Parental Race owns ship, Drug Synth Lab in sector : the ship has +45% (race trait) +15% (drug synth lab) -45 (addicted crew) = +15

2) Parental Race owns ship, Saying No to Drugs : the ship has +45% (race trait) +0% (no drug synth lab) -45 (addicted crew) = Zero Combat Bonus. However, they paid a heck of a lot of Racial Points, and now have no bonus to combat = tragic consequences to combat capacity.

3) Race X captures ship, Race X has no Drug Synth Labs : -45 (addicted crew) = -45 Combat Bonus. If this ship survives combat, I'd suggest scrapping it for tech or resources.

4) Race X captures a Drug Synth Ship: +15% to all their ships in the sector ... so don't let this happen!! Put a Master Computer on the darned thing, keep it out of combat, do anything but let this fall into enemy hands! Immediately hunt it down and kill it/recapture it when/if one is captured...

Hopefully these scenarios are balanced.. with every strength there should be a weakness.

[ August 24, 2002, 00:49: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Hey guys, I do have a question about this mode. I myself, was thinking about making a SFB type mode, but didn't have a lot of time Last year to proceed with the endevour. One thing I like about SFB compared to Star Trek was that the weapons where pretty balanced compared to one another.

Now I know this mode isn't really suppose to be based on SFB, but will this mode make weapons and such balanced compared to one another? I know that a higher tech level weapon for example should have more firepower/capabilities then the its predisesor &lt;sp&gt;, but I'm hoping weapon systems and such are pretty balanced.

Also, shouldn't Technologies of certain components increase in resources? I mean, shouldn't an early Phaser 1 for example be less expensive then say a latter type 10 Phaser or something? I'm not saying make the higher tech level technology vastly more expensive, just enough to give lower tech races a balanced feild (for example, a race may have less technology, but since their tech is somewhat cheaper then higher tech levels, this means the low tech player maybe able to produce more ships).

And what damage values are we giving too components in this? When I was creating my SFB mode, I remember reducing some of the damage outpouts of the weapons and reducing some of the damage resistance of components equivelent to SFB Ratings. I didn't complete the conVersion as it required extensive modification.

Just some questions I wanted to ask on this mode.

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Magnum, what ship styles, sets, races, were you planing on using? Original ones, exsisting ones, or other? Most of the Star Trek ships sets that are currently out are not SFB Cannon. I would not use them. However, I am not making this or any mod, so my opinion on the matter is mute.

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Hey JimBob, I REALLY like your idea for Drug dependent races. A clever system for the Gem Hedar. But may I suggest a revision to the percentages?

How about changing the Percentages of Drug Sythn Lab and Racial trait both too +30%? I remember on Star Trek that once the Gem Hedar where in desperate need for "white drug" they had problems with combat, disipline, even the ability to phyiscally function was a problem. With both at +30%, a ship would operate at -15% (exactly 30 points opposite with a Drug Sythn Lab). You could reason that since their is no drug lab, crews would be severly hamppered and moral and disipline would be difficult to keep control. This would give Drug Races an "Archeles heel" you might say where striking synthn labs would be back breakers.

Just a suggestion.

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To Manofwar,

Actually, what my plan was too use old SFB style ship pictures of as many SFB races I could get my hands on (Feds, Kling, ROM, Lyran, Hydan, Mirak/Kzinti, ISC, etc.). I was also planning to make the mode have aspects of TNG-DS9, like Cardassians, Dominion and Borg maybe. Although I would have to change things in TNG-DS9 stuff, I was going to make it a "What if SFB was played during TNG universe". It would have been basically a Star Trek universe under the SFB timeline.

Ships were going to be under a radical change. Instead of the system in place for SEIV, I was going to make it where "generations" of ships would be used. Early era ships would be those we see on SFB like the old Constitution class ship for a CA. SFB had ships called "X ships" which where basically advanced forms of ships before it. The Excelcior class ships where one of my favorite so I was thinking of using them as the "Second generation of the CA" or in SFB a "CX" crusier. The Galaxy Classes would be the basically would have been "CX2" Versions in the 24th century. One bold plan I was thinking about doing was learning how to use a 3D modeling system and basically create new SFB ships for the later eras. For example, since I loved the Excelcior class ships, I think it would have been neat if I could design a "CX" that had many features the Excelcior did in the movies yet retained some the design approches that the old CA class did (for example, bussard Ram scoops on nacels). Basically, I wanted to make later era designs look like they had elements of the previous generation, but added design concepts from the movies and TV shows of today. I thought about using Milkshape, but I have no knowlege on making ship graphics and I can't find milkshape (I heard its cheap to buy).

As for weapon systems, I was going to use the damage values used in SFB. I was even thinking about using Drones/Missiles soly used with the Drone units in SE4 (sure am glad MM put those in their finally). I would eliminate Cap Missles since they have no ammo limt and Drones do in SE4. Drone limits would be esential if your going to design an SFB mode with the Mirak and Klingons in SFB.

Cardassians and Dominion where going to be a bit tricky though since we don't know what their early designed ships looked like back during the 22nd and 23rd century looked like, it was going to be difficult to make pictures for them. Also, I'm still confused what to use the Cardies for weapons. Since all races in SFB use Phasers (guess they are kinda like the "Laser" in the SFB world, even the Andromadians use them), I plan to implement them for the Cardies. But what to use for heavy weapons? I've heard people say they use torpedos, yet I swear I have seen the Cardies on DS9 use Plasma Torps (especailly on Defense Satilites).

I was also going to make Phasers unique compared to otehr Star Trek modes. Phasers in SFB where basically made in 4 types... Type 1 Offensive, Type 2 Offense-Defensive, Type 3 Defensive, and Type 4 Heavy Phasers. Since Star Trek has a completely different naming convention for weapons, I was thinking about naming each type of Phasers with Letter instead of Numbers. For example, Type 1 Phasers where going to use the Designation of Letter "Class A Phaser". These would the best Phasers avialble for ships, and mostly the Feds would be the only ones available to use them. Type 2 Phasers where lettered as "Class B Phasers" because in the SFB game, these Phasers are cheaper and more efficent then Class A Phasers, but have less range and firepower, used widly buy other races like Klingons, Romulans, Lyrans, etc. that don't have huge budgets or good research labratories. Type 3 Phasers where going to be designated as "Class C Phasers", the least powerful of all the Phasers and short range. But their advantage would be very cheap and some Point Defense capability to them. All Phasers would have the ability to target Fighters and Drone/Missiles, but Class C Phasers would have the special ability for Point defense and a must for any ship going against seeking weapons. Type 4 Phasers would of course be classed as "Class D Phasers". I was having trouble trying to find as sytem too keep Class D Phasers from being able to be put on ships (they were not allowed in SFB) but I was thinking just making them very large weapon systems and hard to implement on a ship. Class G Phaser would off course be the Gatling Phasers (would have double the firepower of a Class C and able to fire twice a turn) and Class P Phasers would be the all famous Pulse Phasers used by the Defiant (A special Fed Design similar to the Class G phaser except a little more powerful and longer range). With the letter class system in place, this would allow me to add numbers to the Phaser types to indicate what tech level they are (example, a Class B1 Economy Phaser compared to a Class A2 Offensive Phaser). Also, Tech was going to follow a forumla where you could only sqeeze so much juice out of it. For example, today guns are more powerful then they were a Hundred or two hundread years ago. We might be able to make them a little more powerful, but its likely this could be the limit to how powerful we can make an Cartrige round today. Next genertion of guns would use a different physics for shooting projectiles (like mass driver weapons). My mode would show the same thing, Phasers would reach a certain point of firepower but it wouldn't make much sense to keep researching it because you would hardly get any more firepower out of it. you would be forced to find new technologies in order to find a weapon more powerful then Phasers yet have similar functions with Phasers.

Just some ideas I had in my head when I was trying to design this massive project. I might still do it, but I would prefer to know how to make 3D images because I would like to make my own ship pictures for it.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings.

It has been a hectic couple of weeks for me with work and trying to overcome a few computer problems - so I haven't been doing much in regards to the TNG Mod. I look forward to getting back to it though with the new modding possibilities from patch 1.78.

Magnum357 - just to avoid confusion - perhaps you can open a new thread describing your Mod ideas just so it doesn't mixed up with the TNG Mod.

Thanks!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Magnum357: Well thanks. I hope that this would be a usable sub-mod. I've since seen the idea of drug enhancement/dependency races in ST:DS9, FarScape, and I think Andromeda (which I'm quite ashamed to admit that I watch on the occassional slow Saturday afternoon), so maybe this is becoming a standard Sci-Fi motif (Ronny Regan should be turning in his grave now - er, did he die yet?)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought that the racial trait and drug lab bonuses should be symetrical at first too (both +30% for example). However, if the drug synth lab bonus is too big, then it will help "non-GemHedar" ships far too much in case of captures (either way I might add). So, I wanted to make the Racial bonus bigger because it doesn't transfer upon capture.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but I missed what your negative modifier would come from (a required component like what I had suggestd?), and how much of a penalty it would levy against the crew (your math suggests -75%)

Regardless, I'd love any ideas and/or help in making this become a reality in a full blown mod somewhere (why have it for just my 'in-house' mods... it's not like the AI would know what to do with it anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[ August 26, 2002, 16:10: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

To Captain Kwok,

Sorry for making such a long message about my mode ideas. I was actually just trying to explain to ManofWar my project, not too suggest anything to your Mode. I suppose I could use my own message thread for my discussions on an SFB mode, but to be honest, I'm not sure if their are many SE4 fans even interested in an SFB mode. I will consider it.

P.S. I love you 3D ships models you have made so far. What 3D program did you use to make them anyway?

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I used Moray/Pov-Ray to make the models. However, I have since learned some new techniques to help improve them when I get some time to do so!

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i'm looking forward to this mod. however, a have dumb question so don't nuke me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif why aren't the vulcans included? i think it would be fun to have them together with the romulans.

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The Vulcans are not included as they are part of the Federation.

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ha, that explains it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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I've been reading this thread for about a month now and just wanted to say two things:

1) I am really looking foward to the inital release for this mod. Keep up the good work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I know the creator is having some time/modivational issues but does anyone have any idea when that release might be?

2) Are neutrals going to be included into the mod? Obviously neutrals would be important to the Federation player, but it is also one of the main features of Star Trek. Neutrals play a huge part in the show.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AOTW (Aliens of the week) don't count http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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Greetings!

I am actually working on updating the site today and will upload it sometime today!

There are a few neutral races to be included such as the Bajorans and Nausicians. Federation members such as the Vulcans, Trill, Betazoids, etc..., will not be.

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hey Cpt, i have some friends that have highpoly models of all the TNG/DS9 era ships and a few non-canon ones as well. if u want i could ask them to take some screenshot of them to help out with the ships sets so u can concentrate on the actually imporant work like makin the AI and finishing the tech tree and so on. so what do ya say?

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Is it just me, or are the members of this forum disproportionately Canadian?

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Nope, not all are Canadian. I'm Dutch.

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But there are a lot of us Canadians here.

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Hello again.

I've updated the site with a couple of changes to the tech list. That's about it for now.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

hey Captian,

I like the updates you have done for your TNG mode. Sad thing for me was that when I was making my mode, I was planning to make similar things in my SFB mode (like for example Sheilds with lower Strength but the ability for Sheild Regeneration). Great ideas on your update, I just hope you don't think I will be copying your ideas if they happen to be similar.

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At first, I had the shield generators use the "shields from damage" ability to create the leaky shield effect. It worked fine, but I felt that using the "shield regeneration" ability in the same role worked better. It fits better with the concept that the shield meter during combat represents the strength (0-100%) of the shields and that they would recharge at an steady rate rather than a rate based on the amount of damage deflected from a hit.

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What?!?

The shields from damage ability makes them absorb up to 50%. Less than 50% if the weapon is especially powerful.

Don't make that kind of change just to make the tactical combat shield meter more accurate!

"they would recharge at an steady rate rather than a rate based on the amount of damage deflected from a hit."
They don't! The CA effect shields simply deflect 50%, and weaken as the generators take damage.

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SJ:

I knew you would cry about it!

It's essentially the same effect using either method. The major difference is that the shields will regenerate regardless of damage inflicted using the "shield regeneration" ability and I think that is more preferable to the player.

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No... It's a completely different system.

Total hitpoints in the regenerators system depends only on your shield generator tech.
Total hitpoints in the CA effect system depend on the shield abilities, plus how well you've armored your shield generators.

The regenerator system will also lack most of the partial shield-skipping damage effect.

PS: There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have a bit of standard SE4 regeneration in the shield generators: if a ship has a chance to get out of range for a few minutes, they can easily restore shield strength.
(Assuming there wasn't too much physical damage to the generators)

[ September 08, 2002, 14:38: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

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Keep the shields from damage effect. Please!

See here is what will happen if you don't: First hit, shields gone (follow me here) second hit, full damage to ship, full damage to ship, etc...

With leaky shields: First hit: shields gone damage to ship shields go back up, second hit: shields gone damage to ship shields go back up, etc

See totally different.

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Just wondering...

Suppose the Federation has Sovereign class Dreadnoughts (TL 8 of Ship Construction, right?), and the Romulans steal level 8 Ship Construction. The Romulans WILL get D'deridex class Warbirds, right? In other words, the Warbirds will require Ship Construction 8 and Romulan Technology 1, not some specific tech like Romulan Ship Construction 8. Right??? (It does seem logical... analyze an enemy ship that is larger than ships you can build and you get to build a larger ship... just like in standard SE4... the only possible exception I could see is the Borg, since they have HUGE ships... perhaps analyzing Borg ships should give some other bonus...)

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Fine!

I spent some time today testing both the shield effects and...I decided that I ended up liking the shield from damage method better...more or less for the same reason that ZeroAdunn mentioned a couple of Posts back. I had never really thought about it that way until I was playing around with it and it hit me what the big difference was.

Ed Kolis:

Each race will have their own unique ship construction tree. In addition, higher levels of research won't always mean bigger ships. Sometimes it will result in more powerful smaller ships like the Defiant.

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Hey Captian,

Personally, I did not mind at all of your idea for "leaky Sheilds" where they would regenerate. I don't know why the person below disagrees with the concept.

Also, neat idea for Tech Specific ships in Racial Traits. I had no idea you could assign Specific Ship types to Racial traits. Am I correct that is what you are planning to do?

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Magnum:

The big difference is that the ship's shields will regenerate after each hit as oppossed to after each combat turn...that difference could mean life or death for the ship. I had never considered that until I was messing around with it yesterday.

The ships are going to be race specific and some might require more than "ship construction".

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I see. One more question I do have about this. So for example, it sounds like you are going to have a Racial Tech Trait for producing Defiant Class Starships right? So are you going to make it where you can only put Pulse Phasers on the Defiant and can't put it on another ship? Is this possible now with the latest patch? I haven't looked over the new files for the latest patch.

Am I right about this or am I completely off?

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So, how is the mod coming? I really need to get back to work on the Cardassians sometime and wanted to know when you planned to release.

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Correct.

Mounts can now be restricted to specific techs/families.

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Hey Captain, got another question.

I've been looking over your site now and I'm curious about Tactical/Strategic combat. I remember talking to Suicide Junkie before about discussions on a Star Trek mode about this subject. What exactly type of movement system will Ships use? Suicide Junkie has his interesting "Semi-Newtonian" propulsion system, yet it seems the Star Trek's way of moving is space doesn't seem to fit this profile very well.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems bigger ships with larger Warp Coils, seem to have greater Warp Velocity (and longer range) then smaller vessels. yet at Impulse Speeds, Larger ships etheir have equal or less velocity movement too smaller vessels. I think Star Treks Movement system has to be different then what we are use to in other SiFi shows.

I think ships use a system of movement similar to what we see in the old Starfire game made by Task Force games. In that game, ships with bigger size moved slower then ships will lower mass. In Starfire, vessels were capable of reaching velocities at the limit of 10% of the speed of light. In space, the normal law of physics have "and object in motion stays in motion", while in the Starfire game system, ships that loose their engies immediatly slow down to near 0 velocity speeds (well, I suppose maybe moving at 10 Km a second or something). How this worked was that the engines on a ship in Starfire did more then propel the vessel, they also powered a Magnetic feild that sounds the ship that helps reduce the mass of the ship to lower levels. With the combination of internal IDF (Internal Dapening Feilds) and a lower combined mass, the ship can use its sublight engines to propel the vessel at hi speeds and sudden change of directions without the chance of squishing the vessel. Once the engines where destroyed, the ship would slow to normal velocites we see with craft now (like the space shuttle).

Couldn't it be possible that in Star Trek that we see the same thing with vessels? Maybe the Warp Engines do more then just warp to other star systems but also help create a warp feild at sublight speeds that allow the Impulse Engines and Manuevering Thrusters to perform high-G maneuvers in space.

If this is true, I guess the question is at Impulse Speeds, is a Galaxy Class starship slower then a Defiant Class ship or is it about the same?

I'm just curious if you have thought about this. I have been thinking of a system similar to this myself for my own mode.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Star Trek, ship size doesn't necessarily count towards warp speed, ie Voyager vs. Enterprise-D. At impulse, Trek ships move about the same speed except the smaller ships can maneuver a whole lot better. The defense bonuses for smaller hulls in SE:IV can be attributed to that fact.

In the Mod, since you can't have ships warping around like the series, I had larger ships require more "engine coils" to generate the same amount of movement as a smaller ship. This system has a good effect as each ship will have a similiar percentage of space dedicated to propulsion which helps to increase the effectiveness of all ships through the entire game.

When the engines are all destroyed...that's it...no movement unless you have another form of propulsion like emergency thrusters.

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[quote]Originally posted by Captain Kwok:

Quote:

This system has a good effect as each ship will have a similiar percentage of space dedicated to propulsion which helps to increase the effectiveness of all ships through the entire game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I guess that is an okay system, But can I make a suggestion? Could you at least make the modifiers pretty hefty for smaller ships? If you just give small Escorts/Frigates light Defense Modifiers, I can't really see them being a very effective ship for a fleet because they wouldn't surive long at all.

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Yo Captaino, how's the mod doing?

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Yes I would love an update. Do you think you will have a Version out by October? I know we are all looking foward to you mod!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Ditto on that!!

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I think you should tell them Kwok