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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Katchoo (edit read katchoo but wrote pvk) good idea.... perhaps we should just start with one item or family and work on it. Why not start with the Reactors ? Then cargo so we can get the system down pact with some trial runs on our weight system
[ July 26, 2003, 04:32: Message edited by: tesco samoa ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Thanks Tesco http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I took the liberty to put together information on each of the main weapons into some text files which you can all peek at, compare, and make recomendations. Race specific weapons are not included, and neither are Missles or Bombs. Depleted Uranium Cannons Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Anti - Proton Beams Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Meson BLaster Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Phased Polaron Beams Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Ripper & Incinerator Beams Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Graviton Hellbore Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Wave Motion Gun Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Null - Space Projector Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Anti Matter & Quantum Torpedoes Any changes to be made (Yes/No) Point Defense Cannons Any changes to be made (Yes/No) EDIT: Edited link to the Null - Space Projector. [ July 26, 2003, 05:26: Message edited by: Katchoo ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
the only problems i can realy see the problem with are the PPB (too easy to get, thats the only problem of the weapon IMO. Otherwise, too good a damage for a special gun. Think Shard Cannon.), the AMT&QT (nothing to make them useful -- reccomended to-hit bonus) and PDC (no real solution found). Also Talisman is very unbalancing and Quantum Reactor is a bit too powerful.
For racials, crystals need a little of boost, otherwise they're all pretty well done. |
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The best way to do that is probably to extend the Armor tech field out, and put in more components -- like, say, Armor IV through Armor XII, or whatever. At any given point, presuming equal investment, armor should give youmore hp/kt, but, shields should give you repair-free hp/kt. That would make deciding between them an actual choice instead of a no-brainer. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
umm, no. armor doesnt have a counter such as shields do - the shield depleter (150 damage for 20kT ROF1 is not a joke) and shield distruptor.
doing what your saying would break the slight balance of shields vs armor - shields good protection, fails against pbb, phased shields are expensive to research, armor acts as backup. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
204 Posts and 3 days, and not a single decision on anything has been made. Ah, democracy at work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
[ July 26, 2003, 07:31: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
because we cant decide what needs balancing.
I say its only a handful of objects, the list is down there. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Shield Regenerators
With level five Shield Regenerators and level five Phased Shields the twenty kiloton Shield Regenerator is only worth the space it takes up, compared to a forty kiloton Phased Shield Generator, if the ship Lasts seven turns after being damaged. And if that weren't unlikely enough on its own, in the seven turns that a ship is surviving and continuing to participate in the fight, it must also take in excess of one hundred sixty points of damage per Shield Regenerator. Because no one's ships end up in fights like that, no one has any reason to use the Shield Regenerator. I could be wrong, and this component could be devilishly useful in ways I haven’t thought of yet, but I doubt it. I think this component could using some balancing. [edit:corrected math/grammar/words used] [ July 28, 2003, 11:53: Message edited by: Loser ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
I've four questions:
1. Does it matter if the possible patch isn't compatible with the earlier savegames? 2. Does the change in component family affect to AI? 3. Does the component's decrease in size affect to AI (besides that there might be empty space in AI's designs)? EDIT: 4. Trivial Changes: Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI. How this'll benefit the AI? [ July 26, 2003, 22:36: Message edited by: Asmala ] |
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The point is, Armor is more costly. Screw the backup-to-shields routine; once you have phased shields, don't waste space on armor ... at least not in current, unmodded stock SE4, and aside perhaps form Stealth and Scattering armor (solely for their defense bonusses). Armor HP are more expensive than Shield HP, in termsof battle losses. If your ship has one Phased Shield V generator, and you get hit for 300hp of damage in a battle, you've lost nothing. OTOH, if you have 4 slabs of normal armor (same 40kT space), you've got damaged components, and are in need of repair time; until repairs are complete, your ship is less able to survive combat. So, I think making armor have more hp/kT than shields generate would be a GOOD thing. If the top-level standard Armor component had 120hp, then, 40kT of Armor would barely edge out a 40kT PhaseV generator ... if you didn't include the generator's hp. </font>
And yes, I know -- in fleet battles, you usually end up with lots of dead ships and a survivor or two, rendering repair a less-significant concern there. So? There's still refits, warp-point-based damage (even armor-heavy races will still favor minimal shielding for THAT), mines, and so on. And a pure-armor ship will be a smoking, HOLLOW hull in short order, versus armor-skipping weapons. ... On a different topic: I agree, the Shield Regenerators as they are now, are absolutely pitiful. I think they need some radical work. So, how about: cut their size to 10kT, and up their regeneration rates to 20/level ... ? That way, the ShieldRegen5 would make +100 shield points, in 10kTof space (the same space devoted to shield regen would give +200 per turn, but would also cost twice as much). You might then see ships devote some serious tonnage to shield regeneration (about 50/50 with PhaseV shielding). Or if that seems steep, either (a) keep 'em 20kT each with the new regen numbers, or (b) drop them to 10kT and make the regen rates 10/level? I personally favor the 10kT size regardless, as that helps fill in some of the 10kT "holes" you find while building ships. Any shielded ship might benefit from +50sp/turn or so from that Last, unused 10kT of hullspace ... |
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Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers ! Properly made AI should work reasonably well with smaller components. In worst case ships would have more armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames."
This means we can't move components, or add any new ones except at the end of the file. Same for facilities. |
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If things need to be moved, if we need to add a couple components, if changing a few family numbers is needed ... if it's all working towards a truly improved balance ... then it should be done. Granting old savegames some sort of "Sacred Cow" status would be counterproductive in light of the balance mod's aims. Balance first, balance second, balance third, and all else a very distant Last place. |
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do not mistake component family and weapon familiy. Component family does not affect the AI at all. It is only used to determine what components are shown when you select "show only latest". Changing some would make for example normal shields be shown making design easier because you would not have to toggle that option all the time. Changing weapon family may be interesting, allowing modders to make different designs using WMG and RB, but would screw current AI. I like current relation between shields and armor. I like that most protection must come from shields, it is that way in most sci fi. I'd even go back to SE3-like proportions. Armor is also good as protection agianst damaging warp points and storms, and aginst mines. The only change I'd make in armor, is making EA (and specially their ability) more powrful to compensate weapon mounts, and stacked fighter weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong, EA works as it is descrived, and not as it worked in SE3. That is, any damage below 10, 20 and 30 is negated, anything larger does full damage. Totally useless, since very few weapons do less than 30 of damage, specially in a weapon mount. |
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Actually, EA lowers damage by 10, 20 or 30 points from each shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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I woul prefer there to be a choice. Just like we're discussing making it more of a choice between MB, PPB, and APB. Just like we're discussing making Torpedoes more viable, and toning down PDC. All of it geared towards encouraging higher diversity in choice, without any one choice becoming the end-all, be-all way to go. |
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Andres, did you install the latest patch ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
There was much rejoicing when EA was finally fixed. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Pax makes a valid point, armour needs some extra points, Geosmo showed very clearly that armour actually makes ships weaker http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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Just throwing in my two cents' worth...
Concerning the PPB, the Devnull Mod makes two changes which considerably reduce its effectiveness: 1. Normal/Phased shields alternate within the same tech tree. Shields I are normal, Shields II phased, Shields III normal, etc. This allows players to reach phased shields much more quickly. At the same time, reaching the largest shields (300/375) takes longer. This means that shields will not be quite as superior vs. armor. 2. Armor has been beefed up tremendously. Though it gets very expensive in terms of research, Armor level 9 is well worth it. Neither of these changes nerfs the PPB - they just make it less overwhelming in the early/mid game. My question is would these changes be do-able within the constraints of this discussion? And how would they affect the AI, if at all? A few other changes I'd suggest (again, within the constraints of the current discussion): 1. Remove Chemistry I as a prerequisite for armor. Armor would be available for research at the beginning of any game, even on the lowest tech start. While armor is less efficient than shields, it is effective against PPB's, and would give players some form of defense until phased shields are available. 2. Do not remove the shield piercing effect of PPB's (I agree with others who've posted that this ability is just too much a part of the flavor of the weapon). But certainly smooth out the damage/range as earlier suggested, and increase the research cost by 50% at each level. 3. Capital Ship Missiles - do NOT give them unlimited range, as was suggested earlier. If low-tech missiles can be fired from extremely long range, then defending planets with WP's will have to use missiles for defense (no ship would come within range of a direct-fire weapon). This would have the effect of making missiles the only weapon for planetary assault/defense - limiting our options, not expanding them. Also, fleets with sufficient PD would be able to assault all but the most overwhelming defenses with impunity. To make missiles a more effective choice in the early game, consider reducing the size from 50kt to 40kt, or even 30kt. Their high supply usage will ensure that any early fleet depending on them will be on a short leash, balancing the increase in launchers. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
No, it's a sci-fi-ish concept that makes the game look more futuristic, an advanced energy field we don't even understand how it works provides much better protection than a crude metallic plate.
I like Sir Whiskers' suggestion, removing the chemistry requirement, and maybe even make level 1 available from start, though that may screw current AI a little. IMHO armor should be the cheap early protection, and not something that rivals with shields in late game. I stand corrected on the EA thing, I guess I have not used them lately. Though I still think it should be made a little stronger. Also the description should be fixed to reflect the real effect of the ability. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
im saying that there are only a handful of things that are unbalanced now - let me repeat the list:
PPB Torpedoes PDC Talisman Thats it. Besides it, the techs available after [resource] extraction 3 are there supposedly by a mistake because there is no reason for researching them. So perharps planet-based ones should be on levels 1-3 and system-wide on 4-6, though 4-6 for a 50k RP base tech tree is difficult to get. Perharps they can be attached to a different tech tree, say, Resource Manipulation? |
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Sir Whiskers: I think those all are great ideas if they won't screw up the AI. |
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I haven't yet got the answer to this question:
4. Trivial Changes: Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI. How this'll benefit the AI? |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
What about making unphased shields have more points than phased ones? Then, you can choose normal shields (which work just fine against almost every other weapon in the game) for max protection, or phased shields, JustInCase (tm). IIRC, P&N has something similar with Massive Shielding or the like. I do think the difference should be more than the current 75 points at max tech, though--maybe 125? 150?
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
IIRC, the AI currently tries to use Scattering Armor for any armor call, because it is the lowest component (Organics/Crystallines use their racial armor instead, since it's even lower). Since it's 50kt, it's wasteful, and since only one is effective, it's again wasteful. Actually, a code change to make the AI choose the armor with the best size/structure ratio would probably be better (although I would like to see Armor IV-VI added). Organic and Crystalline would still be chosen when available, then Armor III, since it has a better ratio than the Stealth/Scattering armors.
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Re: AI and armor
When the Armor ability is called for in a design the AI uses the armor with the highest tech level requirement. That means the highest number of tech levels required. In case of a tie, it uses the armor that is farther down the components.txt file. Adding standard armor IV - VI or adding redundant tech requirements to Armor III as well as reordering the file will help the AI, because now it will use standard armor when it is called for. Special armor can be called for by their specific abilities. Btw, the same is true for other components that use abilities that don't have a value attached (for example Point-Defense ability). Hope that clears things up, Rollo [ July 27, 2003, 23:14: Message edited by: Rollo ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Maybe the Balance Mod should be a discussion on the #se4 channel. We'd likely make more headway on it than we are now.
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Everybody should go to #se4 at some point. It is a fun (and occasionally productive) place to be!
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
An idea to balance offense vs. defense (and PD vs. ftr/skr/sat to boot!)
Cut ALL entries in the data files that affect to-hit chances in half. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif This means: 1. Reduce base to hit chance at point blank (in settings.txt) from 100 to 50 2. Reduce to hit chance reduction per square distance from 10 to 5 (so weapons over range 4 are still useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) 3. Reduce offense and defense bonuses/penalties of hulls by half 4. Reduce to-hit bonuses of base mounts by half 5. Reduce to-hit bonuses of Combat Sensors to 12/22/32 6. Reduce defense bonuses of ECM to 10/20/30 7. Reduce defense bonuses of Scattering/Stealth Armor to 3/5/8 8. Reduce to-hit bonuses of certain weapons (WMG, PDC, HEM, etc.) by half\ edit: 9. Reduce offense and defense bonuses/penalties for planets and seekers in Settings.txt (yes, planets DO get an offense bonus, that's why your WP's always seem to hit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) edit: well, maybe not the defense penalty for planets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And anything else I may have forgotten - essentially, do a global search for "Combat To Hit" in the data files and edit those lines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif These changes essentially have the effect of reducing the chance for any attack to hit by one-half (not 50%, but one-half - a 70% to hit becomes 35%, not 20%). This way, ships survive longer in combat and the weapons that go over 99% and get cut off (PDC? WMG? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) get toned down to something in the 50%-99% range. Of course, this would make the Talisman even MORE powerful but I'm assuming we're going to balance it in some way anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ July 28, 2003, 00:44: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
That is an interesting pic in your sig there Ed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Yeah, I figure, I come up with all these cool ideas for mods but I never get around to implementing them, so I might as well make something of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Phew, managed to read the pages I missed since Last wednesday... A whole lot of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I've another suggestion for the PPB: make it do half damage against shields? I don't know how it works but I'd guess it wouldn't cut it's damage in half when skipping normal shields would it? I for one want it as a sort of a niche weapon since it's special. Making it do half damage against shields would mean it would still be very very deadly against ships with normal shields but would tone it down against phased shields. It should also be changed to improve more steadily as has been suggested. Along with the idea of getting phased shields at the same time with normal shields instead of getting phased shields after researching all the normal shields this would make PPB's a choice, not a substitute for the APB. Some Posts ago a suggestion was made that the talisman could replace combat sensors for religous players. This way you could have multiple tech levels of the talisman and religious players could get them earlier. If combat sensors give 25/45/65 bonus maybe talisman could also be three levels and have bonuses of maybe 45/75/105 or something? Comments on this? Also, it wouldn't cripple the AI would it? I also have to vote that the big guns like WMG, acid, HEM, tachyon cannon get range increases, maybe some to-hit bonuses. Just make them have longer range and differ a bit from each other, like some having better damage/kt/turn, some better to-hit and some faster re-load. Torpedoes could be their baby-brother, having a range of 8 at max tech and having better damage/kt/turn. I like the idea of the graviton hellbore skipping all shields. It makes the ship implode right? Maybe shields shouldn't protect against this? Damn, I'm beginnning to post frequently on these forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ July 28, 2003, 11:40: Message edited by: Lurk4ever ] |
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This makes each 20 kiloton Emissive Armor III equivalent to a 10 kiloton Armor III in protection per kiloton, with the added bonus of negating some trailing damage now and then. Of course, it's significantly more expensive, so I wouldn't use it on suicidal ships or Weapon Platforms. As well I'm not sure the Emissive ability works on WPs. Please correct me if I am mistaken. [ July 28, 2003, 14:52: Message edited by: Loser ] |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
In SE3, it did.
In SE4, the highest Emissive ability of the ship is used, no matter which component is hit. (For damage types that don't skip armor) It works similarily to Crystalline armor, really. [ July 28, 2003, 14:58: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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Here's a possible suggestion: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Component ... Old HP ... New HP ... Net Research cost (Medium) Armor I ... 30 (3.0/kT) ... 30 ( 3/kT) ... 55,000 Armor II ... 35 (3.5/kT) ... 40 ( 4/kT) ... 65,000 Armor III ... 40 (4.0/kT) ... 50 ( 5/kT) ... 87,500 Armor IV ... n/a ... 60 ( 6/kT) ... 127,000 Armor V ... n/a ... 80 ( 8/kT) ... 199,500 Armor VI ... n/a ... 100 (10/kT) ... 289,500 Note, the cost includes the cost of Chemistry(1) at 50,000.</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Compare this with shields: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Component ... Old HP+SP ... Net Research cost ( Medium ) Shield I ... 30+50 ( 2.7/kT) ... 60,000 Shield II ... 40+100 ( 3.5/kT) ... 80,000 Shield III ... 40+150 ( 4.8/kT) ... 125,000 Shield IV ... 40+225 ( 6.6/kT) ... 205,000 Shield V ... 40+300 ( 8.5/kT) ... 330,000 Phased I ... 40+75 ( 2.9/kT) ... 510,000 Phased II ... 40+150 ( 4.8/kT) ... 755,000 Phased III ... 40+225 ( 6.6/kT) ... 1,075,000 Phased IV ... 40+300 ( 8.5/kT) ... 1,480,000 Phased V ... 40+375 (10.4/kT) ... 1,980,000 Note, the cost includes the cost of Physics(1) at 50,000.</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With that said, I think that a few things should be fixed. The Shield Generator I component is the ONLY 30kT shield generator. IMO, it should be upped to 40kT, with 40kT structure, to maintain the pattern. As well, Shield IV and V have greater increases in shieldign levels compared to prior levels. I think they should be adjusted to 200 and 250, respectively. OTOH, the entire progression fo Shield tech and components could be changed: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Component ... New HP+SP ... Net Research cost ( Medium ) Shield I ... 40+100 ( 3.5/kT) ... 60,000 Phased I ... 40+50 ( 2.3/kT) ... 80,000 Shield II ... 40+200 ( 6.0/kT) ... 125,000 Phased II ... 40+100 ( 3.5/kT) ... 205,000 Shield III ... 40+300 ( 8.5/kT) ... 330,000 Phased III ... 40+150 ( 4.8/kT) ... 510,000 Shield IV ... 40+400 (11.0/kT) ... 755,000 Phased IV ... 40+200 ( 6.0/kT) ... 1,075,000 Shield V ... 40+500 (13.5/kT) ... 1,480,000 Phased V ... 40+250 ( 7.3/kT) ... 1,980,000 Note, the cost includes the cost of Physics(1) at 50,000.</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This would make unphased shields better, for the same comparative level of component, in terms of SP generated, and total effective hp/kT. Of course, it's then rock-paper-scissors WRT PPBs, APBs, and the like: do you want more SP but vulnerability to PPBs, or, do you want less total SP but the ability to stop PPBs with your shields? It might also serve to nerf PPB without changing that weapon at all, as the first phased shields (albeit weaker than unphased) would be available for a total of only 80,000 research points, rather than the current 510,000 cost. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
My suggestions (lots of them has been mentioned earlier by others but without exact numbers):
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My second suggested chart for the shields would have the top nonphased shield giving 13.5 effective hp/kT. Also consider that some weapons, such as the Graviton Hellbore, might be getting the Armor-Skipping ability. SDs are nice, sure enough, but the truly BEST setup will likely be a mixture of armor and shields, in equal proportions. Handles shield-skipping, armor-skipping, and SD-heavy, all alike, with equal applomb. |
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Going through all the Posts from the weekend...
Many of the major changes to armor suggested would be design changes suitable for a custom mod... Also: By token improvements I meant reducing cost from 50 to 30/20/15, or perhaps 2-3 additional hitpoints per level. Changes that are compatible with savegames are nice, but it would be extremely restrictive to require them. At worst, two Versions could be submitted to Aaron, one breaking saves, and one not. Quote:
IE: CSM II can be fired from range 10, but not range 11. That CSM would never fizzle out until combat ends. |
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Have their been any Committee Mods produced before. I follow the flow of this thread and I can't help but think of a camel.
[edit: I should qualify that. Many people have many different ideas of what should be balanced. I'll admit that Shield Regenerators should be low on the list, but I think Armor and Shields in general will be fine. Many people have very different ideas of how a thing should be balanced. I don't think the Talisman solution was actually pinned down, though many interesting possibilities were suggested. The drift here is incredible, a new subject comes up for scrutiny every dozen Posts or so and everything follows it off down the rabbit trails.] [ July 28, 2003, 19:02: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">EA ability works once and only once per shot. And it does not matter what component is hit. Some mods - like Proportions - assign EA ability to non-armor components. Some sorts of internal damage reflector. It still reduces damage done to all armor and non-armor components. (armor skipping weapons ignore EA ability regardless what component has it) |
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Thanks for the Emissive Armor correction, guys. Of course, I'm still going to test it, but since the test will no doubt confirm your declarations, I probably won't mention it again.
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I also believe another objective is compatible with those above and has already come out of the discussion so far (regarding armor). </font>
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Two cents on weapons:
APB: Fully developed, this is a maximum range direct fire weapon with the second best point blank range damage value (damage/rate/kt) and the best range 8 damage value. I think we can agree this is so overpowering that it limits strategic options in the late game. PPB: A PPB II has nearly the same damage value at every range as DUC V and goes out to range 6 instead of 5. If that were not enough, it also has the shield skipping ability. Fully developed it has the third best point blank damage value and an above average range 6 damage value. Plus it has shield skipping. IMHO, this would be an above average weapon without the shield skipping ability, so it needs adjusting. MB: This weapon has a good range and an above average damage value. And both these traits are identical to the physic TKP. The one advantage the psychic player gets (for his racial advantage and higher research cost) is being twice as bulky so that it gets past the emissive and crystalline armor abilities better. If you adjust this then the TKP needs adjusting. But I think they are both already above average. DUC: I think this is the gold standard weapon that all the other weapons should be balanced around. PDC: I think you need to be careful with changes so that early PDC are still somewhat effective counters to early fighters (and their 80% defensive bonus). Torpedo: A plus accuracy weapon would be strategically useful. WMG: Strategically, I like the long range, very slow reload artillery concept. Similar treatment should apply to the mental singularity generator and high energy magnifier. Tractor Beams: I,II,III Ranges 4,5,6 with 1,2,2 damage making both the beams and mounts of the beams more useful. After all that Plasma Missles, Incinerator Beams, and Tachyon Canons are still underpowered IMHO. |
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