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-   -   A pirates life for me... (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=2143)

jimbob January 19th, 2002 02:44 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Small size defeats gravity sensors...
Stealth armor defeats passive sensors...
Scattering armor defeats active sensors...
Master computers defeat psychic sensors...<hr></blockquote>

Having an achilles heel for every sensor type, I like that! Was that in the original P&N and I just didn't see it?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What could defend against temporal sensors, though?<hr></blockquote>

Sloth? Wait, no that's one of the seven deadly sins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
Doesn't time slow down with an increase in the velocity of the ship (ie. time is distorted by higher velocities)? So the slower the ship, the harder it is to detect!?

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]</p>

Fyron January 19th, 2002 03:49 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What could defend against temporal sensors, though?
If nothing, then what would be a good alternaive description for temporal sensors to allow hiding from them? <hr></blockquote>

You could say that the temporal sensors use chronoton particles that are capable of detecting objects in the normal space-time continuum, and then have a "chronoton shield" that can cloak a ship from temporal sensors.

Alternatively, have a "time-flux generator" that removes the ship from the time-space continuum, which would cloak it from temporal scanners because it no longer creates any temporal distortions.

The second suggestion seems like it would require you to be a temporal race to do, so I think the first would be better.

Suicide Junkie January 19th, 2002 06:43 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
Unfotunately, there is no way to determine the speed of a ship from the hull, or to set a cloak level depending on the number of engines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

And it does sound like any sort of temporal defense would require temporal technology http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Was that in the original P&N and I just didn't see it?<hr></blockquote>No, I'm just thinking of adding it now... if I can figure out what to do with the temporal bit.

What about totally changing the temporal sensor to... a generic sensory thing.
It would have a little bit of all three standard scan types.
The larger the ship, shinier the hull, the bigger the effect it has on objects around it, leaving larger "causality ripples", detectable by the temporal scanner. Just filter out the background static, and known objects like planets & asteroids & visible ships.

I could then use the temporal ability to make a whole new cloak type, perhaps a Computer Security vs Hackers system?
Remove computer viruses, and use a biotoxin weapon to destroy both people & the organic bits of the MC.
Now, if you have an elite team of hackers aboard, you can spy on the automated systems aboard ships, unless the MC (Level 1 protection only) or E-security (Levels 1, 2, 3 & 4) teams block you.

If Destroyers are the first to be notices by top-level grav sensors, then we have 200KT to pack in the other cloaks on a Frigate.
20 for MC, 30 + 50 for EM.
That's half the hull space to provide enough cloaking to avoid All detection except by Temporal-?-&gt;Hackers.
That leaves 100KT for Engines, Defenses & Weapons, to be used when the ship decloaks.
At best, that might be an unshielded Plagueship, easily wiped out by platforms or sats, roasted in bunches by a ship, or invalidated by a medical ship.
As a long range scout, if equipped with solar panels and engines only, it might be useful.
Or, as an undetectable sensor buoy, if given grav sensors as well...

While awaiting comments on the temporal to multisensor, and temporalcloak to electronic security...
on to sensor packages!

Cost, size & platforms
Restricting sensors to maintenance-using platforms...
In order to make maintenance of your sensor nets an important issue, and thus enabling the cost & size to factor into buying decisions, only ships and bases should be allowed to carry sensors.
We can justify this for ship by requiring the sensor to be moved around in order to get a reliable reading. For bases, we can allow a much larger Version to be used, which works while stationary.

By now, you should be thinking that everybody will have to carry a grav sensor by default, since it can always see ships destroyer or above.
So, it will be a very expensive and large piece of hardware http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Perhaps 600KT, and $20K for the ship-mount, and 1200KT/$10K for the base mount (1/4th maintenance of the ship-mount). Mostly radioactives, but a few thousand minerals too.
These sensors will only become mountable once ships large enough to be detected arrive, so it all works out OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The next thing: everybody already uses stealth armor for the 15% defense bonus, and the armor is only 30KT and dirt cheap. We can allow passive sensors on anything, though more powerful Versions should be larger.
30KT/50KT/90KT, say. You can fit even the biggest passive on a medium sat, or a small sat if you "think big" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Mineral cost all the way, but under $1000 for the level 3. Except, add $1000 rads, $250 organics and $9000 minerals for the self-powered, and self-maintaining sattelite Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

The other standard tech sensor: Active EM.
You're breaking through a 50KT lump of crappy armor that used to be of little use. 15% ECM in a 50KT space that is almost always better used for an additional shield generator or gobs of armor.
We can throw this one in between the others.
?60KT/120KT/180KT?
$3000 radioactives, plus $1000 minerals, and a bit of organics.
We can pack a level 1 onto a sat, 2 if we think big, and the level 3 can only be used on a ship/base.

OOh, the psychic sensor!
We get to go wild on organics cost, $5000, with $500 mineral/rads.
Space requirements should be in crew quarters/lifesupport... 2/4/8? (thats 40/80/160KT)
Only allowed on Ships/Bases, since sats can't support people permanently.
(This may seem harsh, but we'll see about the defenses later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

And, the Hackers.
They need some decent hardware, and lots of power to run it. They also need lots of snack food and coffee. Gobs of maintenance for the salaries.
100KT/40KT/20KT, since we start working better, not harder.
Cost still goes through the roof to get these people...
$1000 (all 3) up to $10,000 (all 3)

Defenses
Grav cloak is a basic part of the hull, no extra cost.
- Battlemoons and other bigboys block nothing
- 1599KT to 600KT block Level 1 (BattleStation)
- 599KT to 300KT block Level 2 (Cruiser/Space Station)
- 299KT to 1KT block Level 3 (Frigate/Any unit)

Both EM cloak types:
Armor tech alone Blocks Level 1.
Cloaking tech levels then upgrade the armor to block levels 2 and 3.
Prices may be increased.

Master Computers:
All MCs provide block Level 1 Hacking attempts
MC I/II/III, block psychic scans at Level 3/2/1.
IE: the more compact the computer, the easier to detect as a thinking lifeform!

E-Security:
Say, 30KT continuous, but rapidly increasing in mineral/rad cost.

PS: one more note, incase you've read this far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
How about labelling the various scanning/cloaking levels with something meaningful.
IE: instead of "Level 1 Hacking" use "Script Kiddies"
Level 1 Passive is "Visible-band EM"
Level 2 Passive is "All-band EM"
Level 3 Passive is "Actively suppressed EM"

I need some suggestions for the hackers, psychics and active EM.

PPS: if you don't like the hackers idea, please suggest something else.

PPPS: in fact, any suggestions are welcome.

Phoenix-D January 19th, 2002 07:30 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
"What about totally changing the temporal sensor to... a generic sensory thing.
It would have a little bit of all three standard scan types."

You could.. but this leaves you with another cloak type to play with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You don't *have* to leave it temporal, I think; could be moved elsewhere.

Lesse.
Active EM
Passive EM
Gravitic
Psi

I'm trying to think of something else a ship could "leak" that would let it be picked up. Communications? Engine wash? Stray tachyons from the power plants? Warp emissions of some kind?

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie January 19th, 2002 05:56 PM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
One minor detail: I was going to make the SENSOR do generic work, thus freeing the temporal CLOAK for something else...
such as Hackers/E-Security (acting like a cloak/sensor pair)
(Where hacking in only lets you see the location of the enemy ship, not control or damage it)

jimbob January 23rd, 2002 06:25 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
I wish I could come up with a good idea for the temporal scanner, but no ideas yet... too bad ship velocity can't be used. No ideas yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> By now, you should be thinking that everybody will have to carry a grav sensor by default, since it can always see ships destroyer or above.<hr></blockquote>

Would inertial dampeners decrease the mass of the ship enough to hide larger ships from gravity sensors?

Suicide Junkie January 23rd, 2002 03:29 PM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
Inertial dampers were converted into Grav-Spike engines. (+1 thrust, -1 supplies used)

PS: Is there any reason why nobody has commented on my idea about the temporal cloak ability being used for "E-Security" and temporal scanner ability being used for "Hackers"?

Suicide Junkie January 24th, 2002 04:57 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
Finally here: The P&N v2.5 (Beta)
Direct any bug reports or tweak requests to this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie February 11th, 2002 05:57 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
P&N for PBW is out!

And, the AI Patcher has been revived, simpler to use:
- Browse your harddrive to get to the AI files.
- Click the "Patch this AI" button.

Features:
- All files from one AI are patched at the same time.
- Security feature prevents double-patching and lost backups.
- Will automatically decrement one characteristic if required because of the new "choose characteristics, then advanced traits" feature of SE4.

PS: Click the P&N "Downloads" link in my sig to get this.

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

Phoenix-D February 11th, 2002 08:48 AM

Re: A pirates life for me...
 
"All files from one AI are patched at the same time."

ARG! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif So much for that. Techmod uses the same engine scheme as P&N, so I was just using your patcher to update the AIs. Oh well, I think I still have an old Version in here somewhere.. I just won't be able to refer people to your tool to make that easier.

Phoenix-D


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