Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hrm. Really?
I thought the only counter to overwhelming tech was overwhelming numbers/firepower, or sneaky tactics?

Eg carrier group or battlestation vs one shadow battlecrab.
Eg Sheridan's nuclear mines

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

SJ: Yes, I agree that the younger races should find it difficult to take out the Ancients, but the way things are now writtent the Shadows and Vorlons simply have too great an ability AT THE START OF THE GAME. In the game I am currentluy playing to test EA stuff, the Vorlons have kept the Centauri to one planet for 200 turns, using 5 ships total. the Centauri started two systems away from the Vorlons and they have been at war since turn 10 or so. Even Centauri cruisers are getting whacked by Vorlon escorts.

I think the secret to making the Ancients "unbeatable" may be in making their planetary defenses much better, even early, and their ships not quite so effective. In fact, just by changing the shadow weapons to fire once per two turns, the battle outcomes become more like what we want. The EA just finally managed to keep the Shadows from taking a planet (after they had burned off 3 others, never even attempting an invasion) by closing in to short range with half the fleet (armed with particles cannons) and standing off with half lobbing in shells. The losses were almost 2-1 in favor of the shadows, and the strength ratio about 2-1 in favor of the EA.

The problem with the shadows is that they kill a ship per turn, pretty much, even when they are small ships. Plus, with their edge in required tonnage and better engines, they have lots more room for armor, and are tougher to boot. Having a Shadow vessel be worth twice the value of a younger races ship is fine, but the shadows are too tough early on. They distort the game by whom they are placed near.

PF: I am now setting up some scenarios where I will just fight similar ships with minor differences in the "simulator" to see if some empirical rules are exposed. maybe that will give us some places to start.

TS: I like the idea of just getting the weapons for each race listed. Certainly, if there are obviously inferior weapons that no one will use because there are better options available, then we can get rid of them or at least restrict them so the AI doesn't have to sort through them.

Is it possible to get this weapoins spreadsheet that people are discussing? IF, did I understand that you had one?

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Regarding number of weapons for each race.
Will there be the standard weapons (ie Particle Weapons) and Advanced Weapons (ie Advanced Particle Weapons)?
Will all races have a Ballistic option? (Don't think the Minbari (for example) currently do, while the Narn are Missile heavy).
Not all races have Mega and Ultra class weapons currently - do you plan on giving those races one?
Will the same range of capabilites be there (ie the Narns two main long range seekers, the stronger targets ships only, the other can target fighters and sattelites as well)

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

SJ: My question is how on Earth (or outer space) does one, within the SEIV system, program an AI to mass or be sneaky as you suggest? I am not one whit concerned about human players at all other than wringing the best out of the AI players.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

All, Question: Do you folks want the data/quadrant file to stay as is or to add the Gold quadrants? That is the only thing keeping from posting the Version I have. Reluctant to post it though since weapons are "broke".

Also, I would prefer to bow out of overall AI stuff and concentrate on one race....don't care which one except it would have to be a standard race (no ancients or nomads for me!). Which one ???

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

PF: if you are in a "trimming" mood, I would suggest the EA. they have way too many specialized missiles and seemingly redundent PDF weapons, IMO.

If you are looking to build new stuff, then one of the more powerful LNAW races (like the Drazhi) would be a good place to go, as we need more "empire-capable" races. A "shadow-based" race like the Drakh might be fun, too.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, certainly sneakiness is for humans only.

I believe the mod was set up such that the ancient races didn't get to do any colonization, thus limiting their forces to smaller numbers automatically.

The AI should be told to use huge numbers of ships per fleet if it is a young race, and much less for an ancient one...
The ancient one will have less ships total, so they should need smaller fleets in order to have enough to go around and cover their borders anyways.

Does that make any sense with respect to the AI files?

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

SJ: I guess so. I'll look at the files..

and actually one can set up the research files so the Ancients can colonize....I'll re-set their research so they can't colonize...even if they can, it is terribly expensive and takes a long time for them to build anything..

[ January 29, 2003, 04:17: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do have a Version of it, but I think it is an old Version. It may not have everything in it.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

AGoetz,

My 2 cents on your questions:

1. Regarding number of weapons for each race.
Will there be the standard weapons (ie Particle Weapons) and Advanced Weapons (ie Advanced Particle Weapons)?
- I think there should be a common set of weapons at the basic elevl 9with differences for the races, but a fairly common research path) but that not everyone should get advanced weapons in every Category. The AW is an area where we can distinguish between races.

2. Will all races have a Ballistic option? (Don't think the Minbari (for example) currently do, while the Narn are Missile heavy).
- I don't think we need to have all races have capabilities in all areas, so long as they have equivelents. I am somewhat concerned about the play balance of having virtually every Narn weapon be vulnerable to PD weapons, but that is something playtesting can iron out.

3. Not all races have Mega and Ultra class weapons currently - do you plan on giving those races one?
- I think all the races will need these.

4. Will the same range of capabilites be there (ie the Narns two main long range seekers, the stronger targets ships only, the other can target fighters and sattelites as well).

- the specific limits on weapons can make the game kind of fun (the EA fighter missiles, for instance, are either good against ftr/seeker OR ships, requiring the EA to have two types of fighters, which is okay as it makes them different). Again, playtesting is the way to balance these out.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Is there a gold Version yet? Or one in the works? I've been hearing rumors about one for over a year now I think??

Ken

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

javaslinger,

There is a Gold conVersion, but it is as rough as the 1.49 Version. Scroll back a couple of pages for my link to the bulk of thge files and directions on how to fix the remainder. PF is putting together a Version with his more recent AI mods, I think.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Let me clean it up a bit AND figure out how big it is. also, I guess I need somekind of readme.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Too big, it comes in at just over 40 MB...

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

So make 2 zip files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

IF: Yeah, yeah, I know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Just gotta figure out what folder(s) to spearate (probably pictures).

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

PF: The pictures from the 1.49 mod work just fine in Gold, so you may not need to include them (I didn't! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

All: I am working up a somewhat arbitrary system of evaluating weapons ROF vs range vs damage inflicted for weapons (using strategic combat only). I hoped to finish it today, but have been distracted by the RW space shuttle tragedy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Early indications are that range is far more important than I thought compared to ROF.

I also want to scrub it using "optimal range" versus "Max weapons range" tactics, as the latter seem to yield much better results than I expected for the long-range-weapons races like the Minbari, Shadows, and Narn.

Hopefully, this will give us a heuristic model to use in evaluating racial weapons balance.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Grumbler; yeah, MOST of the pics are the same (except for my custom shipsets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )...

Gonna post the data, ai files needed.

Will provide the shipsets I use if requested (they are VERY rough...)

[ February 02, 2003, 02:20: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

FFirst file is the zip for the two readme for the B5 MOD - Gold, second is the AI+Shipsets.

1: 1044154075.zip

2: 1044155514.zip

WARNING!: The AI is still very rough and in the opinion of most of the testers, the weapons are unbalanced. The ships sets are very rough and some images are missing (default ones will be used). Recommend D/L the basic 1.49 MOD and then modify with these files. The .zip is NOT self-extracting, so you will have to manually place the files in a B5 Mod folder in your SEIV folder. I also recommend the using the MOD Launching program found on the SEIV Gold CD as no special path.txt file was made.

The 1.49 Version files can be found here:

http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm

[ February 02, 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Hi guys and girls,

It's been a while since my Last message.
Now school has commenced again I find myself in a heap of homework and the like. I was hoping to get a rather easy roster (which lessons to take), but that was not the case. Therefore I'm going to do less and less for our precious mod.
I know this is not very fair for you all. I was the one with the new idea's and I was going to implement them. I'm sorry I can't live up to my promesses.
You'll hear from me when I have something interesting to say. Timstone out...

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pathfinder, are these the only two ZIPs needed to for the GoldMOD?

I was going to post these to the site.

Thanks,

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

The original B5 mod was only 4 files cause that is how it would fit on the PBW server. The file uploads there can't be greater than 5 MB. On Shrapnel, they can go up to 30 MBs, so pathfinder has more flexibility.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Rambie: Well, the readme files kind of (hopefully) explain what files are included. basically all these are, are the files needed to Convert 1.49 to Gold. In other words, I would setup a B5 MOD folder in SEIV Gold folder using what is available on your site then d/l & extract the 2d zip with the conVersion files and shipsets to overlay what you have in your site.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with the winzip to make self-extracting files *shrug*.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

I thryed the B5 Gold mod and it looks good except that I haved to correct 2 AI Files and dont know why all the Minor AIs every round brings an error but the lines SEIV misses are in the files.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Swartzbart: where did you put the minor races (what folder)? and what are you considering minor?

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Minor races are Neutrals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Understood IF: My question basically is did he make a separate B5 MOD folder with the required sub-folders???

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, good. I'll work on getting it posted this weekend.

Time for another dumb question: Did v.34 get released? Last I looked here it was still in development. This forum gets so many Posts it's easy to loose track of conversations.

Making self-extracting files (EXE files) with WinZIP requires a seperate utility, not the basic WinZIP. You CAN make ZIP files that store the directory info as well as the file though. I usually do that with the files I have for downloading.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Ups think I found the error I maked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ... have 2 orders for the Neutral Races in Pictures one named RaceNeutral the other RacesNeutral ... ups.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Rambie: Well, yes and no. Val had planned to release .34 before going on holiday/vacation back in Novemeber but was waiting on an updated AI from me. I had a HDD problem at the time and it didn't get published. Not sure what Version(s) you'd call what I have done since then...

Swartzbart: Hehe, been known to happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 07, 2003, 11:39: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Note all: Come 4 March I won't have a lot of time for the B5 MOD other than PBW turns.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

PF: I hope you cannot continue as much due to GOOD reasons (like new house, new spouse, new kid, etc).

ALL: I ran my synthetic weapons analysis but found that I didn't include enough ships per side to make the stastics valid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Am starting again with 10 ships per side and including reversed starting order (moving first had a disproportionate effect on the outcomes as well).

So much for doing it simple - shoulda known! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Grumbler: Naw, something called Freelancer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif not throwing in the towel, just not spending nearly as much time. still have Yolu (molecular weapons similar to Minbar + plus some ships for them) to do yet...

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Been no Posts for a while, so here's the (as I remember) status of my current Single Player game.

Note : The Abbai AI continues to cause unexplained RCEs at odd times, fortuntly they aren't in the current game.

Highest AI level, Highest AI bonus.

I'm the Gaim and I control a 25 system section of a large map. There are 8 jump points out of this region, the Vree or Centuri lie on the other side of most of these. Each jump point is guarded by 6 Heavy Cruisers (5 Particle Concentrators + PD), 2 Heavy Carriers (180 Medium Fighters (Particle Guns) each, Packet Torpedoes, PD), 4 Escort sized Assualt ships (2 Gaim Boarding Parties each) and 1 Medium Repair vessel (loaded with Packet Torpedoes). I have close to 40 planetary ship yards, over 130 star-base mounted ship yards and have a stock pile of over 3 million Minerals so I could build one massive navy in a hurry if I needed to. To keep happiness up, every one of my planets has 100 Light Infantry - the main reason why I have more units than most the AIs put together.
I'm currently rated as number 5 out of the 9 remaining empires (the Raiders have bought life to my O2 worlds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , no neutrals).
The LLort are the largest empire with over 40 systems.
The Centuri have the largest Navy (by quite a margin) - they have 500 ships in service. They have been launching Intel attacks on me for ages, but now that I've gotten some decent intel buildings up and running they aren't getting through. Takes the computer a couple of minutes to process the Centauri's turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
I know that the Centauri and Vree have at least Dreadnought hulls but they have shown no sign of having the advanced armors yet (mmm, Assault ships).
To speed up turn times I'm contemplating building an exploration force and culling that Centauri fleet a little http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . I figure half a dozen BaseShip sized vessels should do the trick.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

AGoetz,

Are the Raiders working now? I remember one of my first games, before I realized that the nomad races didn't work, saw me capture a nomad homeworld. When I hit facilities upgrade the world upgraded to one shipyard and eighteen Manufacturing facilities! That one world could build with more minerals (something like 55,000, 'cause I was an ancients race) than I could produce in the whole empire! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I stopped playing using nomads after that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

grumbler: they are probably only working as a "standard" race.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

No, the Raiders weren't working. When I showed up they had plenty of tech, but no ships or units. As a Nomad they also had no colonies other than their Homeworld. It was an easy task to load a transport with some of keep-the-peace troops and take them.
Problem : far too easy
Benefit : at least doubled my productive worlds as I can now fully exploit H2 and O2 planets.

Game update : the Markab started RCEing Last night. I've turned off their Design Minister as I'm not ready for the game to end (it's the usual suspect, Ultra Efficent Fusion Engines). Once I've researched a bit more of the advanced armors as well as finished off the ECM/Sensor techs I'll be putting together an annilation fleet to speed the game up - when there are 3 AIs with over 350 ships it takes ages to process a turn.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

AGoetz: Are you using v 1.49 or Gold B5? I find that Gold is MUCH more stable

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

I haven't had a chance to add anything to my simulation runs lately, so I thought I would post the results of the first four runs to keep the interest up.

I ran a series of simulations of a "long range" ship versus a "short range" ship design using various combinations of range, ROF, and damage, in aneffort to help us get a better hand on weapons mix.

Starting assumptions:

1. Ten ships on each side fight to the death. One “Long Range” (LR), one “Short Range” (SR)

2. Both fleets use “optimum firing range” with no formations.

3. Max (ancient) tech available for both sensors and ECM

4. Use Shadow battleship as the base hull for all ships, with UE bio drive V. Speed 18.

5. No passive armor, Refracting armor 5

6. Each ship had 10 weapons of the exact same type.

7. Each case had two tests, alternating which side went first.

8. All weapons were DF with no to hit bonuses or special damage types. No damage reduction due to range.

Case 1: LR-1 vs SR-1
LR-1 had range 10, damage 100, ROF 2
SR-1 had range 5, damage 100, ROF 1

Results: In both runs, the SR-1 won, losing 2 ships when moving second, 3 when moving first.

Case 2: LR-2 vs SR-1
LR-2 had range 20, damage 100, ROF 2
SR-1 as above

Results: LR-2 won both runs, losing 3 ships when it moved first, and 5 when moving second.

Case 3: LR-1 vs SR-2
LR-1 had range 10, damage 100, ROF 2
SR-2 had range 10, damage 100, ROF 1

Results: SR-2 won both rounds (duh!) losing no ships when moving first and 3 ships when moving second.

Case 4: LR-2 vs SR-2
LR-2 had range 20, damage 100, ROF 2
SR-2 had range 10, damage 100, ROF 1

Results: This was the interesting one. SR-2 won the round when LR-2 moved first, 10-2. But when SR-2 moved first, LR-2 won, 10-3.

My assumption here is that the side that moved first didn’t get in range, so took the first hit and never recovered.

More results and analysis to come, if people think these sorts of things are going to be useful.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

As this is my first PBW game, there are some things that are surprising me.

Firstly - just how many neighbours I've found (or have found me) and it's only turn 12. I'm still running around on prototype fission drives (oh will you researchers please hurry up) and I've already got 3 spots on my other empires screen occupied. I've only visited about 6 systems!
Second is more of a question - should I be trying to get treaties with the other players - or building war fleets? I haven't seen enemy fleets yet - but that doesn't mean that they aren't already under construction.

In a versus AI game I'd quite happily stick a couple of warships on the a jump point and then ignore whatever is on the other side. In a human game I'd expect assaults, tactics and treaty use to be a bit better thought out.

Main point of paranoia - I'm the only H2 breather on the map so the other players are going to want my people (oh well, even if I'm wiped out, this means that some of my people are likely to survive to game end - they're just too valuable to completly xenocide.)

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

How soon you run into people varries. I've only meet one player. It help that most ships have unlimted range which mean you don't have to recall them as often.

I'd do both as far as the treaties and fleets. Well, defense for your planets if you don't want ships, but sense I'm the Shadows my playing style is abit diffrent. Just try and not be too dependent on your trade. Most people arn't going to want to fight so early, but you never know. *grins*

Since this is a Roll Playing game, people are sometime more easy going than the AI games. Course this is the B5 univers, they didn't see mto get along too well even when they where friends. And then their are the Shadows. *grins again*

I'm not going to tell you how to defend your systems because, well, I may have to pay you a visit some time. But don't put all your eggs in one basket. Its ussaly best to make sure they can't get into your system in the first place. But make sure you have enough in back up incase they do get past your front lines.

As for beening the only H2 breather on the map... *grins* The Shadows can be your friends.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Hey all, sorry for my absence, did I miss anything?

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quite a bit, really. Where have you been?

There was talk about scrapping the mod's weapons system entirely a while back. I hope that movement was abandoned..

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey... don't have any sort of in-game discussions with people you have not met in-game. That is a serious breach of RP protocol. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 11, 2003, 04:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Thought I would give the mod some time to grow in the community without any input from me, see what directions it would go.

Was also waiting to see how the PBW game went.

Though been busy as heck with work would be a much more accurate statement.

I do have a bunch of stuff I never did release in the way back days of December - mostly refined shipsets, some repairs and all, but not sure what it would be compared to what has changed.

Anyone release a 'new' mod Version since?

I see the AI master was quite busy, as were you all... damn lot of reading to catchup on.

This was the Last one I was up to:

1.49.34 - After a LONG break... Added a credits file to try to sum up the whos and whats. Added shipsets (Abbai, Dilgar, Gaim, Pakmara, Raiders). Added missing bmps to Vree shipset. Fixed Great Machine typo. Changed Gaim to Nomadic race to better represent the fact that they don't colonize. Fixed Living CPU family so it was different from External Cargo Pods. Updated Formations.txt.

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Also of note:

I finally got a cable modem so I could actually upload these monster files and I emptied out the b5mod@yahoo.com mailbox, so it is once again open for business.

[ March 11, 2003, 05:15: Message edited by: Val ]

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Val, WOW! I thought you ran away on your vacation to Arizona. And just decided to keep going and going, and going and................... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Glad to see you once again!

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Pretty close to accurate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Couple quick questions for y'all: Has anyone released any new modifications to the Mod? I did see the new AIs - what's the most recent Version there? Any new shipsets?

Thanks!

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Yah!! Val is back!!

<does little jig>

And I was afraid that you had gotten lost in Arizona, and changed into a wild hill-man or something. It's good to have you back.

-jimbob

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

Thanks for the enthusiasm jimbob http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Didn't quite go wild, though I think it might have been a better choice! Got a whole passel of new drinking stories though...

Man, I had to go all the way back to page 34 to start getting caught up... this is going to take me a little while.

How is the PBW going - or how did it go?

I hear tales of a Gold Version conVersion someone recently did? Truth or fiction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If everyone (who is interested) can post the following 3 things, I'll use that as a basis to start up again:

1 - What don't you like?

2 - What do you want to see added? (within the confines of SE IV)

3 - What is flawed and needs fixing?

(also, if you want to say what you do like, that would be cool as well - so if enough people like something that one person doesn't, well, it is a democracy after all)

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 

PBW Status :
Currently turn 16 (we only got around to starting not all that long ago).

The AI's most recent Version should only be a couple of pages back from the start. It tries very hard to prevent RCEs, but I can still get it to fail (usually on the Abbai, with Medical Bays being a sometimes trigger - which doesn't make sense to me as there are no Medical Bay equipped ships in the AI).