Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>can been done with scripting, remind me the specifics? it was 35 wardens against 100 flags, and what magic levels should their gods get?


It was 10 wardens backed by a god with nature-9
versus
35 flags backed by a god with fire-4 blood-6 (or potentially fire-9)

I'll get around to it eventually, but if you want to testbed it... fell free.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

A lot of the disagreements so far are different focuses of the game. Some people like more basic infantries; some like mages; some like powerful gods; some hate SC while others regard them as a part of the game. Give the developers a break, there is no way to please everybody. And they have their vision to the game too. The only choice is option to disable some of the spells, and limit research below a certain level.

My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map. Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance. If you think that 200% taxation and build the most units is the right kind of game, you're allowed to do so. But it's a matter of personal taste.

2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed? To me, things have improved. Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable. Moloch cannot give you free devils. Both Moloch and Wyrm now look a bit overpriced but I guess somebody is going to prove me wrong soon. The dragons now might be the all purpose bargain pretenders but they can be killed. The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, and to a lesser extent the Statues and Monolith. They're disruptive because they're spoiler which destroy the prospect of one opponent without adding too much to yourselves. They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels. Blood slaves are harder to get because of the requirement of blood mages to collect slaves. Ice Devils need 55 instead of 30, level 5 instead of 4. Horde from Hell needs 30 instead of 20. Father Illearth is now a level 7 spell. Even the wimpy Dark Vines are moved from level 3 to 5. And no more Pazuzu util level 9. Is it not far enough? I don't think anybody know until we've played the full-game for a few months. Especially when now, both nature (better Treelords, Tarrasque), death (various Tartarian Spirits) and astral (Juggernut) get their super-conjurations now.

4) Death Magic. I guess your complaint is because "Raise Skeleton" and "Raise Deads" don't need gems while the Summon Lesser Elemental do? Nobody has complained these two spells over-powered in Dom 1. Death was weak in Dom 1 - I think Dom 2 has improved on that. Is it too far? We'll have to see how people use it in a full game.

5) Evocation. I don't see the problem yet. Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1. Mages teleporting into a province and demolishing a whole army has always been there in Dom 1. Some people love it though you're free to find such tactic unfun. What are your suggestions for game play? Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun. You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.


>Give the developers a break

I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?


>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

You haven't looked closely then.


>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

See a difference yet?


>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?


The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

That's what has changed.


>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

A bit, yes.


>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.


>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.


>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.


No they are not more expensive!!!!

Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.


>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

In what way?
I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

If anything it's much more deadly.


>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.


>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">HOORJAY!

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it's way too potent - insanely powerful. But weaker than Dominions 1, since mages now just kinda shoot up in the air like a sprinkler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

So - nether darts is overpowered, but you can't claim that as a reason Dominions 2 is worse.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again... raising richness increases resource production, greatly altering the game balance. This would be a viable suggestion if gold richness and resource richness could be set independantly, and with finer granularity than low-med-high.

-Cherry

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:49: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

>So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.

Your comment is trollish, or as the other had said, jumping the gun before seeing the whole game. I don't mean that you're a troll (a faithless backstabber who keep winning the game, maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Trollish because of there were a lot of complaints without much constructive criticism. You also expected the game to follow a certain way and therefore complained a lot of aspects wouldn't be as fun. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I guess some of us are quite thrilled to see the high power magic-fest.

But let's not call each other's name.

>>Give the developers a break

>I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?

A fair complaint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

> You haven't looked closely then.

As close as my ability limit me to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

>Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

I saw two numbers on the board. One said 7%, the other said 10%.

>In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

>In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

>That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

>See a difference yet?


I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

If I'm right, it's 21% + 18% (39%?) - (growth and productivity add 3% each level?) versus 30 + 30% (60%). Assuming your base income is 3000 gold by turn 30, it would be 4800 vs 4170. Big enough but I don't see it very significant - could be my play style.

>>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?

>The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

>That's what has changed.

For a MP game, you can raise the richness of the world. Increase the site frequency. Or give everybody a few starting provinces. You need to tweak the game settings to your flavor and find like-minded people but I don't see that a fundamental fault of the game.

But if you like the patrolling routine, then we'll need to persuade the developers to allow adjustment of population loss. Harder but not imposssible.

>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

>A bit, yes.

>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

>That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.

Show me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I was limiting to the amount of gems you could get from your capital site. So, no boot to most except for Ulm and Vanheim. Great Mother is usable but her fatique will be quite high after a few turns. PoD is undead and can abuse his melee advantages easily. It's before turn 10. So I'm limiting to only one magic path, below level 4.

The cost of the pretender I used was less than 100 points. If you invested enough in your pretender, of course he will be powerful. But that's a conscious and risky choice of stratgy, not an abuse. People can of course use a Titan with water and air, but they're doing it at their own risk. We all know how risky it is to put all the eggs into one basket.

Yes, I understand that you don't like too much emphasis being put on the pretenders, any suggestions that can allow the game to accomodate both sides of the spectrum? An option to double the cost of all points related to pretender power?

>>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

>No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.

I don't see that.

Sphinx is expensive and limited (one misc item only now). You can't even use it to break a seige!!

You can totally decapitate a player in the early game. A good and intimidating move but you're asking for diplomatic trouble that way. Moreover, unless you put more magic on it, a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral and (incredible it may sound) it doesn't really qualify as a super-combatant to me. If he has more magic, any death will be the loss of a lot of points, which is especially probable as a Sphinx can't retreat.

But of course, all of these are related to my preferrence of game strategy. Your mileage could be very different.

>>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.

>No they are not more expensive!!!!

>Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I don't see that.

Gem economy in general is not more expensive. It's less affordable to hire mages. But it will be the same as Blood hunters.

Gold economy is worse (though it's around 20 to 30% worse in my calculation). That's everybody agrees on. It's just some people hate it, some love it, some find it tweakable and tolerable.

>I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.

Not in a sarchastic way - I can't wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

>In what way?
>I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

>If anything it's much more deadly.

It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

BTW, does anybody know whether higher level mages get higher resistance while casting the ward spells?

>>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.

>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

"Flame Eruption" is more powerful and at a lower level than "Nether Dart". Some nations have very dispensible mages to use them. They have short range - their only limitation.

"Astra Fire" is not as potent but cheap and of a lower level.

And the "Wrathful sky" you've mentioned.

There are other killer spells. I don't see them anywhere worse them the "Darts". Even "Rain of Stone" is quite useful as long as you have somebody with high enough hp to use it.

"Nether Darters" are also very vulnerable to "Mind Duel". You can also counter it by increasing the MR of your troops. It's powerful but it's a level 7 spell.

If you don't like high-power army-devastating spells in general, that is another discussion. That'll involved putting in some options to tone down magic in the game. Not a bad idea at all. How do you want to implement it?

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

thats my part of the comments, which go either in the direction of Alex arguments, or in the opposite:

- combat pretenders are more powerful in doms II that they were in doms I, because they didnt change, but as gold income is reduced by a factor of 2 (a bit more actually, see below), they gain advantage relatively. A doms II nations with a combat pretender will develop way faster than a nation without (Alex got 36 provinces by turn 20 with a dragon, I got 18, just the half, with a rainbow mage, same settings. Ok it can just mean I'm really bad in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

- The highest gold income in doms II is 250 gp in your capital. You cant really count on doubling that by patrolling, as several mechanisms concur into making the idea a really bad one (more unrest, and big decrease in pop). Compared to doms I, where you could patrol easily your capital, and reach nearly 600 gp a turn.

- non blood nations gained some big summons, but as only blood nations can really hope to get and hold demons princes, the situation has not so clearly changed in favor of one of the two clans. Blood harvest is more difficult, but from my experience, when you succeed, you get more slaves, so the situation is not that clear.

- nether darts are not * that * overpowered. To be correct, nether darts are not overpowered when you have an anti magic ward, as the damage need a MR check. Lamias with AM ward dont need to fear the darts, eg.
Also the larger battlefield is rather detrimental to accuracy (fireball and flare have lost much of their interest by the way).