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- - c'tis themes (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=16680)

Re: c\'tis themes

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Originally posted by licker:
you must research pretty slowly though, especially with magic at 0.

Shamen are still cheap good researchers at 4 RP/turn.

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Empoisoner + LK is 390 gold, so you'll only have maybe 110 to spend on troops in the first couple turns, that's 11 LI...

That's ~50 LI after 3 turns. Just ran a 5-turn test to check, had just 50 to attack in turn 4. The dominion got a nice boost in turn 2, though (+3). Reached 6 in turn 4. You can get a bit more LIs with a fortified city (a good castle to have if you're a Swamp Guard addict).

Re: c\'tis themes

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack,

Well, the regular C'tissian also use high-damage falchions a lot. Hmmm, with all these new cheap berserk spells and the better nature magic on Marshmasters, maybe the dual-wielding Falchioners will become C'tis troops of choice soon. And move 2/10. What's not to like?

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Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II.

Bad luck, perhaps? I've found plenty in my own tests.

Re: c\'tis themes

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Originally posted by apoger:
Just my opinions but;

The elite warriors are the bread and butter for C'tis, just like Dom I. If not using them then use the LI. All the rest of C'tissian troops are second rate. The only other troop I'd make is the Swamp Guard, and only under limited circumstances.

Even with the better defenses of some of the forts, I'd sooner chew off my left leg than take a fort other than the fortified city or wizards tower. Even with lower admin effects, the extra gold is clutch. Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you? Some smug emotional feeling that you are doing some extra damage to someone as they remove you from the game? Pointless. Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field, so you never have to defend your own forts. Plan for victory. If you plan for defeat you are going to get what you planned for.

An enemy killed by your arrow towers (or in Miasma's case, by your dominion while he sits outside staring at your City Guards) is just as dead as one killed in the field. Being seiged is not necessarily a defeat. Of course it's annoying if they storm you successfully - but that's one of the reasons it's so hard to find out what the beseiged army has, it makes storming a crapshoot (doubly so if you're storming a hill fort or a mountain citadel). A failed storm attempt can be ruinous - and waiting around in Miasma dominion while you bring more troops could be equally costly.

Also, better admin forts no longer get you huge amounts of extra gold as they did in Dom I (this is a good thing IMO).

I think assuming that you will never have to defend your own forts is arrogant to the point of idiocy. If you really have that huge a margin of superiority over your opponents it doesn't matter what fort you take.

Furthermore if the fort buys you enough time to bring up a reinforcing army and coordinate it with a sortie (while your opponent hesitates to expose more troops to Miasma or starvation)...

Re: c\'tis themes

I like Swamp Guards as pretty much everyting else gets shot to pieces and somebodies got to take the arrows. Problem is do I like SGs enough to pay the race design costs involved in getting enough resources to really use them? This was always the dilema which hung C'tis in Dom I for me and as yet I haven't been convinced C'tis is free of it. As it seems you can build SGs everywhere the dilema may not be so bad. Particularily if you intend to use small unit of SG's almost exclusively as pin cushions.

As people have said using Undead to take the arrows is one way but you do lose them. In Dom 1 I often used a really small unit of SGs and relied on them not routing off screen due to their slow speed.

Looking at the serpent dancers (sacred dudes) I wonder if there is some way of making them work with a water based pretender so that their defense becomes absurd and they get an extra attack? Obviously a screen of undead is an option vs arrows and perhaps using elite warrios to race around the flank and take out the archers - though its cheaper to rout indie's than get in behind them and have to kill everyone. If you use undead to take the shots you could combo in poison slingers.

The most promising option for me at this point is some sort of fear/bless tomb race which tries to scare its opponents away. I still haven't done the testing to see if I can get it to work and there are alot of pitfalls to overcome. Still if I can get the start to work then there is hope.

I haven't really looked at the Miasma theme yet but would approach it something like - high defense Stronghold (Hill Fortress - maybe Fortress if its tough enough) plus Miasma and reasonably powerful dominion in a race planning for a long term win through insane death magic. Quite a focused/tight theme even if not a standard power approach.

cheers

Keir

Re: c\'tis themes

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
>So you'd just drown your enemies in fragile units that are cheap? The advantage outside of cheapness that these guys have over other C'tis units is speed, and they arn't *that* much faster. -edit--- morale is 2 higher than SG...

It's a combination of higher morale, large numbers due to low resource cost, and most of all the damage delt by two attacks. The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack, plus they get a much higher damage trident attack.

True, but it has low attack and lower defense. And the higher morale is offset by their inferior defense and protection making them take more losses.

Plus, if you want two attacks, why aren't you taking falchioneers? They have two attacks (both pretty high damage) and still have reasonable protection.

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I do use the LI also. I did mention them, however they take a beating from arrows, so I tend to change over to Elite Warriors. Still they are one of the few light troops worth making.

Swamp Guard don't combine well with the other troops becuase they are much slower. Plus they can only be made in small numbers and are a shard low on morale for heavy troops. I only use them if I need a large screen of troops that can absorb missile fire.

Low morale isn't as much of an issue with serpents and LK. I think they are a viable addition to a squad that you expect to be using hold and attack. Of course this depends on the availability of good missile troops, battle magic or runner flanking - otherwise you don't want to hold and attack anyway. But I think SG can be useful.

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One mistake from the post that started this theme. I do use poison slingers, but only in small numbers. Their use is so specialized that I don't consider them regular troops. I make armies of undead using reanimation. I place 5 slingers behind 50 undead. This combo works very well for busting up high quality enemy armies in multiplayer. I wouldn't waste it versus the computer. The undead are immune to poison. Enemies get jammed up fighting the undead and are forced to fight in the poison clouds. Undead losses tend to be high, but the extended exposure to poison can take a tremendous number of quailty enemy troops down. Mannikins work just as well as reanimations.

Vinemen, too, unless you are Desert Tombs and don't have any nature gem income. For Miasma, vine ogres (a Sauromancer can't reach nature 3 unless he has favorable random pick and an item, but it's easier for Marshmasters).

Of course, you can have your Sauromancers cast Terror, too (or if you are DT, have unpriests instead). But the Shaman are much scarier - cast Curse. Poisoned cursed units have a 25% chance of acquiring a new affliction every round (from the poison damage, even if they don't get hit). And IIRC there is no defense against poison slings except 100% poison resistance.

Don't try to mix this with the more conventional LK/serpent/normal troops army, though. You'll banish your undead and poison your living. (The latter is less of a problem now that all C'tis troops have partial poison resistance, but it could still hurt.)

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Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II. It's a shame, as they were one of the hidden benefits of earth magic.

Maybe the frequency of firbolg fortresses is terrain dependent.

Anyway, I think earth magic has enough benefits. If there is a path that needs more benefits, it is still water, IMO. Quickness doesn't help enough when you just pass out from fatigue twice as fast.

Re: c\'tis themes

a note on archer targetting : I see that all of you are speaking of screening your light troops with a rank of heavier shielded units.

You should take a second look to the tac AI, the archers jumped from 30 IQ to normal intelligence in dom2. No more you can fool them with 6 swamp guards ahead of 50 LI !

a good thing by the way

Re: c\'tis themes

Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
a note on archer targetting : I see that all of you are speaking of screening your light troops with a rank of heavier shielded units.

You should take a second look to the tac AI, the archers jumped from 30 IQ to normal intelligence in dom2. No more you can fool them with 6 swamp guards ahead of 50 LI !

a good thing by the way

OK, but then, how do you instruct your archers to target these LI behind the screen?

I mean, there is no "fire at second line" order. You can order to fire at archers, but what if the units you want to target are NOT archers?

(One other thing that puzzles me in the orders system is, there is apparently no way to order a set of squads to "keep formation" - sometimes I'd like a group of Hoplites to just move forward as much as the crossbowmen behind them need to get in range, but I can't find a way to do this - so in the end the Hoplites charge forward, get tired, and start getting friendly fire from the crossbowmen... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif )

Re: c\'tis themes

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Not sure about the AI nations, but the independents can still be abused that way. I've done it with many times with 1 longdead pLastroning for 50+ LI. You just have to make sure every LI starts at least 1 square behind the decoy(s).

Re: c\'tis themes

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Not sure about the AI nations, but the independents can still be abused that way. I've done it with many times with 1 longdead pLastroning for 50+ LI. You just have to make sure every LI starts at least 1 square behind the decoy(s).

I was not under the impression that the AI could be fooled as easily, and many time he targetted my second line, I 'll double check.
I suppose you made your tests with Nagot the Shadow, aka the Prince of Death of Pythium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 09, 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: c\'tis themes

I'm having my most successful demo game yet with regular C'tis. The serpent dancer/poison slinger combo is really deadly, and I have a blue dragon pretender with water 9/death 4, which means that dancers can attack and move faster and have a great defense value, are a bit scary which adds to the effect of poison from slingers and their own hits, and lizard kings can cast two fanaticisms per turn, which helps to keep them from routing. Double fanaticism also works great for the regular armies, as they almost never rout this way, and I just discovered that you can recruit sacred serpents in every fort, not just the home province. It's a bLast to play! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 09, 2003, 21:32: Message edited by: HJ ]