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Oh, I'm not saying anything about the definition of demons. They ARE out there, and they DO NOT LIKE us.

What I was trying to refer to is the fact that whether there are other beings out there, other beings created by God besides the angels and the fallen angels, is not really touched upon by Catholic theology.

Some people try to claim that they receive their power from a being that is not angelic, demonic, or God. While the Catholic Church does not say, one way or the other, if these beings exist or not, it still frowns upon 'experimentation' with trying to receive power from said beings, as there is no way to tell whether or not the source is in fact benign or malefic.

The basic fact that the Catholic Church decries magic is not at all in contention.

Atheism is an amusing 'religion', since it is impossible to prove a negative. As far as evidence of God, I believe there is quite a bit of evidence. The fact that some people do not believe so has always rather astonished me.

I do find it amusing, as well, that such a thing as posting a mod can provoke this kind of discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It's a wonder that my TC mod hasn't provoked a discussion on the exact difference between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism.

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Was this directed at me? I think it has not been near proven the existence of something before the universe, but it is certainly a strong possibility. I do find the sort of being that most religions describe (mostly concerned with humans/earth as opposed to the rest of universe, answering prayers, sending prophets, and in general constantly tinkering) highly unlikely. I would be interested in your strong evidence, however.

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Actually, it was not directed towards anyone in particular. I will note, though, that as untenable as agnosticism is, atheism is even more so.

If you would like to hear about evidence, please PM me. This thread is too cluttered already.

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Sorry, but I think I'll take a rain check, out of this discussion I have already received one 'preachy' PM. I can see we are already talking past each other anyway.

I must admit I am more than surprised at the number of serious christians on the forum, given how easily most of them are offended.

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Religion is just yet another excuse for people to gain power over others... and it works surprisingly well, too. One would think these people would realize theyre just thralls and drop out of the loop after a while.

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The strange thing is, as much debate as there is about the existence of a god, it is almost about one that is going around commanding people and issuing rewards and punishments. When you boil away all the nonsense about a god(s) setting rules for humans to follow, and the complex myths that inevitably come with organized religions, the question of whether or not something designed the universe becomes not that important.

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Thats true. You could say I believe in god simply because I dont believe that dark matter really exists, yet I find the big bang theory reasonable enough. Without dark matter, there is not enough matter in the universe for it to eventually stop expanding and collapse. So, if there isnt dark matter, some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang. Why not call that force 'God'? It doesnt really matter, as long as it isnt pointlessly mettling in the affairs of humans. And that I would find nearly impossible to believe. Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.

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Thanks, that is exactly what I was getting at http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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Actually, this is a logical fallacy. You are quickly (and conveniently) explaining away something in the natural universe, that is (as yet) not understood, by means of the supernatural. It's the same reasoning that had humans inventing rain gods not so long ago.

If some deity was all-powerful, why would it create flawed beings? For amusement is the only logical answer. The more advanced the being, the greater the need for play. If you believe in some deity then you must believe we're all a not-so-huge cosmic joke. Unless ... people's pet deities are *not* all-powerful and all-knowing. I'll let folks try to figure out the ramifications of such a concept with regards to organized religions.

Humans invent deities because (most) humans are fundamentally insecure, and want someone or something to provide direction, meaning, and authority. It's also why, despite us having knowledge of democratic principles dating back from ancient times, most humans on this planet continue to tolerate dictatorships (in one form or another) to this day.

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I am not offended, and won't crawl into a hole. You may be right about the "preachy" PM, perhaps it should have been public. Why don't you post it?

All I sent was an encouraging Thank you.