Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

The first book in Song of Ice and Fire was, I think, such an excellent read, so complex of a book and so popular, and pushed so hard for sequils, that it would be almost impossible for any writer to live up to it, and consequently, the next books just aren't that good, because how could they be? If you only take into account the pressure Martin's under to churn out sequils, it's going to affect the writing, and just possibly that pressure and stress is bringing out his worse qualities.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I'm a big Lovecraft fan myself, and it's 1 reason I do love R'Leyh and Atlantis is this game, but I have to concur on the racial problems as well.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

As far as Brust goes, I really admire him as a writer and "Cowboy Feng's Space-Bar and Grill" was superb-however, he seems to be becoming a little bit more mainstream than I care for, and his Taltos books remind me of years and years ago, when we used to do freeform roleplaying in chatrooms and everyone you met seemed to be half elf, half dragon, half supermodel, and have both a mysterious past and an unrealistic eye color.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Since a few people have mentioned old authors, I'd like to point out a collection called Tales before Tolkien, which is, well, a bunch of stories written before the big T cast his Dark Shadow over the genre. (I don't really mind Tolkien, but reading TbT will make it really clear how much he changed fantasy.)

Folks might also like Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest fantasy authors. He influenced Jack Vance, who's already been mentioned. Many of Dunsany's stories are very short -- only a few pages -- but the writing is so good as to suggest huge worlds stretching away beyond the story. The Gods of Pagana is thematic for anybody who wants to play a god. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Likewise, players of Tien Chi <s>should</s> may be interested in Barry Hughart's The Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox, set in "a China that never was". Usually, only the first story, Bridge of Birds is in print, tho.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

While he was definitely prejudiced I don't think that Lovecraft's work is all that bad here. It's important to remember that racism was the general way of thinking in his time. I can generally shrug off this sort of thing in a book from the 20s where I wouldn't accept it from a modern author. Also, most of his stories don't have racist elements in them, due to lacking characters from any minorities.

Lovecraft is far from unique here as well. I remember a socialist friend of mine getting a tad irate about classist elements in Lord of the Rings, for instance.

With the exception of a few digs at the Chinese, I think that most of Lovecraft's more obviously prejudiced elements are targeted at groups that I believe are now well assimilated in the states - immigrants from southern Europe and whatnot. That takes quite a bit of the sting out of things.


Oh, I'm not sure you're using the term 'Eugenics' correctly here... Eugenics is essentially the idea that one can 'selectively breed' humans. It's not necessarily racist, although it is generally considered to be immoral. Eugenics was embraced by the nazis and this effectively destroyed its credibility.
I don't remember references to it in Lovecraft - his prejudices are mainly displayed by descriptions of immigrants as inferior.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Totally off-topic, but eugenics still hasn't been totally discredited. Marriage between first cousins is outlawed in about half of the states in the United States, and it's justified on eugenic grounds.

-Max

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

In regards to Brust (and its very pleasant to see that he is at least known, usually its a "who?") I really liked his first 5 or 6 Vlad books, then they started to lose something. I seem to remember one "about the author" where he changed his whole view on assassination...which kind of limits a book about an assassin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Can't be bothered to dig through the box I haven't unpacked yet, but thought it had to do with being morally wrong - possibly occurring around the Orca novel.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

While Gardens of the Moon is not the easiest book to read or get into, and Memories of Ice indeed is the best in the series so far, I would still say that is very bad advice. There is a lot a reader wont understand, a lot that will not have the impact it should, if the reader skips the first two books.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

...and for maximum confusion, start with the second book. Man, I was lost for 400 pages, before I kind of gave up understanding and enjoyed the ride.

I would recommend reading in order. The events in the first book resonate through the first three books (which is as far as I've read), and I personally didn't find the first one so inferior or dissimilar to the rest that I think if you're going to like the series, you will probably like the first book on its own.

My favorite Erikson quote comes from Andrew Wheeler, an editor at the Science Fiction Book Club. He posted on rec.arts.sf.written:

"Something like a Black Company novel written by George R.R. Martin in
which every other character is Elric. Erikson pushes a lot of epic
fantasy buttons, and jams them several feet behind the dashboard."

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Since he hasn't been mentioned yet, I thought I'd add Jack Whyte and his Camulod Chronicals. A must read for all the Marverni, EA Ermor, and Man fans at least. You might want to start with either book 1, The Skystone, or else what's officially book 6, Uther (and then rest the rest from 1). It's pretty sparse in the magic department, so if that's what really interests you then you should probably pass.

Also since we are OT already I'll throw in a plug for the excellent "The Legacy of Heorot" and "Beowulf's Children", an SF take on the classic Beowulf.