.com.unity Forums - OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- Dominions 3: The Awakening (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=138)

- - OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41273)

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

thanks for the input. the game is just now getting _close_ to the point of where stuff like that might start to be added *uuhhgg*

things like this will be subsystems of the game. this makes them modular. there is a base skill system which is basically just a framework of values attached to keys. most subsystems, including combat, specialized weapon training systems, and even magic, will need to reference this framework. this allows the abstract skill framework to just be value holders, and each subsystem can use it as necessary, but without requiring special integration.

the skill framework is hierarchical, but doesn't enforce a specific depth of hiearchy. skills can give others a bonus if they are related in the hierarchy. this formula checks each skill a player possess and compares it to all their other possessed skills:

Code:

<starts with a 'for all skills' loop>

if id(baseskill) != id(bonus):

<should be an indent here, forum hates tabs>

skill.count = (skill.count +

                (bonus.count *

                (self.dictmatchcount(skill.fam, bonus.fam) /

                (6 + baseskill.count))))

first, if a skill equals itself, then it can't give itself a bonus :D

basically, this formula checks to see what 'family' each skill is in and looks for all other skills that share part or all of its family, the more the family is shared the bigger the bonus (that's the dictmatchcount function, it looks at the two families and returns the number of matches). lastly, the bonus is divided by 6 plus the base value of the skill. the 6 is just to lessen the amount of bonus, and the basevalue actually means that a skill that has a real high base value is relatively unaffected by 'family association bonus'.

an outcome of this formula is that deeper hierarchies get bigger bonuses ultimately, but will never apply more bonus to things with shorter hierarchies that share some piece of their family. also, i think i could add something to the code handling adding to baseskill counts that make skills with deeper hierarchies more expensive to increase, finding something that would balance out exactly the effect of getting a bigger bonus from other skills that share its entire family. EDIT: actually, i just realized there is probably a way to make that constant '6' be a variable that varies by hierarchy depth of the base skill, this could be used to cancel out the depth bonus problem.

anyway...

basically everything will be subsystems that reference the values of this tree. each subsystem can specify what values it references and how they effect the action. even combat will be a subsystem that references the weapon skill values and whatever else (armor skill values maybe? tactics skills? who knows). at first it will pretty simple so that I can get a broad range of necessary subsystems in place. once this is done the entirely modular nature allows combat to be revamped without too much trouble.

it seems to me then that these specialized fighting styles and stuff can either be added as their own subsystems, or made as an addition to the combat subsystem. i'll handle that part when i get there :D

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

I first started studying martial arts at the age of five. I am now fifty years old and have never really stopped, though the degree of my commitment has waxed and waned variably over the years. My first public martial arts performance was at the age of fourteen in front of an audience of 3000 martial artists doing a combat demonstration of bo stick versus nunchaku. (My youthful nervousness was such that I forgot the practiced routine and had to spar full contact for three minutes! Ouch!) In addition to numerous forms of empty hand ranging from Muay Thai to Tai Chi, I have studied a number of weapons forms and applied some of that to seven years of full contact weapon combat in the SCA.

In addition to this, I have been a hobby wargammer for most of my life, primarily interested in highly detailed simulation gaming. I professionally managed a game store for ten years and under my management that store rose to having one of the highest sales volumes of any game store in the world. This was accomplished through a number of techniques, but not least among them was an insistence that our staff, most especially myself, be intimately familiar with the game mechanics of as many games as possible.

Most RPGs for me while being very colorful with their game 'settings' have greatly suffered from the point of view of mechanics. This was understandable to some degree as playing a truly detailed simulation game inevitably meant that a melee combat would take an entire game session to resolve. That's what I liked the most, that sort of combat simulation, while unfortunately for myself, most other gamers preferred a combat simulation that did 'not' take all night to finish so they could get on with the role playing part of the game.

With the advent of computers, I anticipated with relish the coming of role playing games with highly sophisticated and detailed combat resolution systems, as the computers could easily handle the details that bogged down human players working with pencil and paper. Alas, I was in for a huge disappointment, as game developers realized that they could market graphics easily and mechanics not at all. Virtually all computer games contain game mechanics less sophisticated than basic D&D.

The best of the pen and paper games out there with regard to combat simulation, fun and flexibility is in my opinion the Hero Games System. The latest incarnation of the martial arts simulations in that system actually describes the techniques used by that particular martial art and defines game modifiers for each technique. The player at their discretion chooses which techniques to use in whichever appropriate circumstance.

To learn a martial art in the game, the player must make an investment in character points at the onset to purchase 'knowledge skills' which represent a theoretical background, but do not yet confer any actual combat enhancing benefit. As the player gains experience (character points) they may purchase extra techniques within that martial art and then start actually using those techniques in combat. Progressing in skill involves purchasing extra techniques or purchasing 'skill levels' which can be applied during combat in numerous ways (typically conferring offensive, defensive or damage bonuses). This manner of training in the game is not particularly 'realistic' as in real training one tends to learn all techniques very slowly, hoping that one could apply any of them if a fight ever happened.

The problem with this approach in a game such as Dominions is that the game does not, cannot stop for a player to make such decisions. Ultimately the degree of 'realism' that can be applied to a game depends largely on the degree of complexity of the individual combat simulation. Dominions as it concentrates on mass battles, cannot afford to make these individual combats more involved than the calculation of a few very basic statistics.

As for the relative differences between Eastern and Western systems, they are rather moot in my opinion. What counts far more than stylistic differences is the degree of talent, commitment and training of the combatant. A student of Miyamoto Musashi who does not take his training seriously would loose to a street fighter with no formal training but who has the practical experience of having been in fights.

All other things being equal, a western knight with a lifetime of combat experience would handily defeat a samurai who has lived at peace. Comparing two veterans however gets sticky as they live in entirely different worlds. It's almost like asking, who would win in a fight, Luke Skywalker versus Gandalf? If you could magically teleport two armies, a veteran medieval western army versus a veteran Japanese samurai army, the victory would more likely than not be a question of relative equipment and combat experience than one of style. (Most wargame systems would actually give the advantage to the samurai army due to their preponderance of 'two hand cut and thrust' weapons.)

In individual combat, size and strength matter far more than training, until at least one has achieved a very high level of skill (your typical bouncer with no formal training will handily defeat most martial artists). Psychological factors are even more important. An enormously dangerous fighter who is not mentally prepared for a fight can be easily defeated by a resolute attacker engaging from surprise. And in a lethal combat, the combatant least afraid of death is by far the most dangerous opponent.

The 'techniques' that are taught in martial arts and simulated in game systems actually are rarely applied by martial artists in an actual fight. What most martial artists fail to realize (especially the new ones) is that the techniques being taught are not taught with the intention that "in case A, you do B". Rather techniques are taught so as to practice 'principles' that can most easily be learned by practicing techniques. For instance one cannot land an effective punch if one is not stable on the ground. This is true regardless of one's 'style' and regardless of the technique one studies, a good teacher will be on the lookout for problems in basic principles made manifest by practicing techniques.

All this to say really that while a detailed combat system matching up martial arts with their techniques makes for a fun game, it really has little to do with reality. For a simulation game, factoring in size, strength, weapons, armor, training, and combat experience is likely sufficient for realism's sake. Training in martial arts, regardless of style, would simply factor into general training level, better schools simply training faster.

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

Wow, that's a great post. It also sounds like it's been fun being you.

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endoperez (Post 668718)

Wow, that's a great post. It also sounds like it's been fun being you.

Heh. And you don't know the most of it. If you ever catch me complaining, beat me with a stick. ;-)

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

I don't have nearly panpiper's experience, but I just wanted to chime in and say pretty much everything he said rings true to me. I've done martial arts as well, and fought with a number of different weapons and in different styles and his post matches up with everything I've experienced and read about fighting fairly well.

Thanks panpiper for a great post, I'd love to fight you in virtual reality some day ;)

Omni: From what I can understand of what you've posted I do like the way you're handling the mechanics of 4th age, great work so far.

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

I really wish I had been given the chance to do Martial Arts growing up. But alas there where none and not till High School was there a Tae Kwon Do teacher in the area.

But that doesn't mean I don't have some skills that could be applied during such a period. Growing up I wrestled with friends at the beach, others in the area prefering fisticuff. Making bows and arrows (stone tipped or just none) or using sticks for sword and homemade shield or staffs for sparing contests. Going up the hills and in the woods for teamed war games.

Plus being a Maori you need to learn Kapa Haka. If you have ever seen any sport with a New Zealand team then you've seen a Haka. But part of Kapa Haka is also learning to use Patu and Taiaha. Which in war time are basicly a Club and Spear. Which I guess is New Zealand Martial Arts now in the form on song and dance only.

The thing is I'm sure everyone has at somepoint in there life learnt some sort of Martial Art, be it self trained from playing games or convention ones learnt from teachers.

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavaere (Post 668792)

Plus being a Maori you need to learn Kapa Haka. If you have ever seen any sport with a New Zealand team then you've seen a Haka. But part of Kapa Haka is also learning to use Patu and Taiaha. Which in war time are basicly a Club and Spear. Which I guess is New Zealand Martial Arts now in the form on song and dance only.

Capoeira is a recognized legitimate and respected martial art that for generations was studied uniquely as a dance form. Brazilian slaves practiced it as a dance because this way their masters would not recognize it as being dangerous. But you do not want to cross a well practiced capoeira dancer, trust me. ;-)

Your Kapa Haka is much more of a martial art than you realize. The dance is highly stylized, the techniques in it don't have much use. But performed properly, you are practicing all those principles I mentioned and as I also mentioned, the techniques don't normally get actually used in combat, but the principles always do. Plus, combat is three times the mental as it is to the physical (to paraphrase a French general). The ritual side of Kapa Haka is extremely martial and if studied taking the ritual side very seriously, could easily hone a true warrior spirit.

Do not sell your culture short, you have a great heritage there. My advice would be to go back and thank the teachers who taught you Kapa Haka and ask them if there is anything more you might learn.

(By the way, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your most skilled teachers will tell you that the dance starts in your belly. Listen to them, this is a very important martial 'secret'.)

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panpiper (Post 668708)

What most martial artists fail to realize (especially the new ones) is that the techniques being taught are not taught with the intention that "in case A, you do B". Rather techniques are taught so as to practice 'principles' that can most easily be learned by practicing techniques.

I'll post this link in here, since we're already straying away from Fourth Age discussion. This video shows 'principles' that are then broken down and extrapolated from. I can't even really imagine how much time it would take to be able to do something like this "on the fly". The same group has a collection of great videos in Youtube, everything I've seen from them is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDP0r...eature=channel

Re: OT: Western v. Eastern martial arts

Hooray for MMA putting an end to the stupid "which would win in a 'real' fight" arguments.