Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I assume since they lack the staying power early on above surface, and get their behind kicked by aquatic nations below.

They've got very nice mid/late game magic and sweet forging paths, but having no reliable N magic to find those free forts underwater and having all units in a bit borderline good in their categories makes the early game hard.

But, a nice nation if you can get friends. I had good time playing them in a team game.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I'm a little suspicious of the "free forts underwater" argument, having just found my first one in an SP test game after searching 33 underwater provinces. Maybe I just got unlucky, but I'm not going to be relying on it.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Yeah well, it was just speculation, I wasn't the one tagging Atlantis weak. And having had my behind handed to me by MA Atlantis I wouldn't call that weak, either.

I was swimming in free UW forts in noobs vs vets 2, but that was with high magic sites. But, as with all sites, experiences vary.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Monkey PD is very bad against some things, but against others it's decidedly above average. Your opponent, unfortunately, gets to decide what he attacks you with, but I've had many an amusing turn where I'm guessing my opponent slapped his forehead and said "Hey! I though monkey PD went down to a strong wind?!?"

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Yeah, seems like bad luck that one. With no rigorous testing and based only on pure gut feel from playing several games I'd guess a kelp fortress is maybe in something like one in eight underwater provinces. You do get some dry runs though when you're basing your strategy on them....

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I almost killed QM's Sirrush in one blitz with monkey PD, but their PD is still pathetic. To call it decent you'd want small amount [<5] to reliably stop call of wild/winds and more points to stop indie attacks [barbs, villains, knights at higher PD] and small raiding armies.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Is Kelp fortress tied purely to ocean terrain, or is it based on a different terrain feature with underwater just as a prerequisite? thejeff, it might depend on your map.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Absolutely right, my bad, Atlantis' problem is not lack of land power, it's that they are inferior to the other two underwater powers in the sea, I expect they'd be fine if they were the only water nation in play or had an isolated sea start.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I've played LA Atlantis, and whilst I didn't win, I consider them to be potentially very powerful. Bear in mind the Hall of Honour mostly has games that doesn't include the new underwater mages LA Atlantis got which expand it into astral (S1/S2) and fire (F1).

I've played EA Atlantis. My perception is that what you need to get their magic good in the late game tallies pretty badly with the blesses that best benefit the Basalt Kings and sacred troops. Meanwhile the troops are too weak against Oceania and poor MR makes them a liability against Rlyeh. Basalt Kings are wonderful, but the nation as a whole left me underwhelmed.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I'd agree that EA Atlantis isn't a good candidate for a strong bless. The Living Pillars are too high resource for early expansion and the low MR will cripple them later, especially with R'lyeh. The Kings can't self bless.
They're plenty tough without a bless though, once you've got a little research and some gear for them.
It would be hard to defend against an Oceania bless rush, I'll admit, but if you're not relying on sacreds, there are plenty of decent MR troops so I'm not convinced that R'lyeh would pose a special problem.