Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I am glad you brought this up, for I have been meaning to ask about that.

Does Zen's mods truly cut out the false horror spam? What is to prevent the Seraphs from still casting quickness followed by 4 false horrors anyway, even at 30- fatigue? The only difference I could see is that the AI will rarely cast any more horrors at the higher fatigue cost after the script ends. But they don't much cast horrors anyway, frequently preferring for whatever stupid reason to cast phantasimal warriors instead.

Has anyone tested this with the spell mod?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

RoS is Evo-7, FH is Alt-6, so they're not too far apart. If I have some Pythium/Arco/Caelum neighbour I'd prioritize RoS to have a counter if they attack me. In this case I'll have it much earlier than turn 40 (turn 25-30). If I have other enemies I may postpone this research.

Mistform helps to some extent (if one has time to cast it). I'm not sure what "strong hit" is, but multiple RoS are still nasty. I haven't really tested it, but from past experience I'd guess that mage has 10-20% per RoS to get killed. And heavy troops are ok in RoS, so any army that primarily rely on heavy melee troops is reasonable safe from RoS, opponents won't probably cast RoS to kill couple of support mages and few units. In many ways Pythium and Arco are similar to Caelum. They all have deadly and easily dying mages.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Booyah!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

A)What was the reason behind keeping the 1 AirGem requirement for SummonAirElementals instead of nerfing the AirElementals themselves?

----------------

B)Another thing that bugs me is the Fire susceptibility of IceDevils. It is good to nerf IceDevils, but why by adding Fire susceptibility?

1. I think it is not very thematic: Considering water versus fire, I would always bet that water is the winner. Things might be somehwat different for ice versus fire, but the IceDevils are powerful water mages...

2. It makes them more symmetric to the arch devils. Symmetry might be good for balance, but it also defeats diversity. Diversity is one of Dom2 greatest features IMHO!

Do IceDevils already get increased and noticeable fatigue when fighting within hot lands (something symmetric to cold-bloodedness)? That would seem much more appropriate to me...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

A.) Because Air Elementals are extremely exploitable in a Storm. They also have an armor piercing attack and can fly. Storms are already so exploitable, making them more so by chainsummoning would not 'diversify' the game. Once again catapulting Air magic to the forefront of synergestic spells.

B.) Because by adding a vulnerability it is quite a sacrifice to try to get full resists (thus making it a true SC). Ice Devils are already physically more powerful than Arch Devil's, have better buffs. I don't see why the 'diversity' is hurt by having them equally niche useful as an Arch Devil as far as resistances. In actuality you may still always choose a ID over a AD (if you have the option) because of the physical stats, but depending on who you are fighting it might have a counterweight.

a.) The protection that normal ID's lose even in Heat 3 Enviroment (outside of the ID that is especially sensitive to heat) is minor and acceptable when you can equip a Ring of Fire to null the Encumberance issue (which is the big issue with Cold Bloodedness).

My response might be misunderstanding. I can't fathom how having one unit with a different vulnerability to it's opposite element lessens the diversity in anything but equipping the Ice Devil. I can say in the stock game before the nerf, there was never a reason to pick an AD over an ID with the exception you couldn't gather up enough Air gems to make Boots of Flying. As it stands now if you will probably summon the ID's first but they won't be immediately invulnerable to 90% of the mages you meet with two items, instead it requires 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

First: I am sorry if you found my questions insulting, this was not intended, I was merely asking out of interest. I am a bit worried because I interpret your reply a bit harsh, but maybe you are just tired of defending your ideas... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif ...or maybe I am a bit tired and interpret you wrong. No worries in that case. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Second, I am not that satisfied with the answers:
A) Ok, you say that AirElementals might be too powerful. I do not disagree with you on that. So they could be balanced by changing their stats. You choose a different way by leaving them as they are, but making their Fire/Water/Earth counterparts more accessible. Fine and diversifying. I was just not sure why you preferred the one way over the other...

B) I assume it is less diversifying, since it adds more symmetry, and symmetry is order, and an ordered system is less diverse in the sense that chaos is diverse. Example: Changing Abysia by turning fire resistance into cold resistance, heat aura into cold aura, fire picks into water picks, cold preferrence instead of heat preferrence would not add much diversity to the game, IMHO. Sure there would be further differences, since not every fire item or fire spell has an ice or water counterpart, which is due to the broken symmetry (i.e. diversity) of spells and items.

This is also the case with the Elementals: FireElementals are susceptible to Cold, but WaterElementals are not susceptible to Fire, hence effectively countering the one versus the other needs slightly different tactics than just replacing a water mage with fire mage. I like that, since most other games would have them symmetric in susceptibility, but not in Dom2! Thus I was just wondering whether adding a fire suceptibility was the only way of establishing the balance (since I do agree that IDs where too strong in comparance), and whether you considered other ideas which were neglected in the end...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Have you tried using them? The other elementals move somewhat slowly and are somewhat difficult to get into the fray. Air elementals since they fly do not have this problem. This makes them wickedly easier to use. Try it out edit back the fatigue cost to 99 ( is that what Zen used? ) for air elementals and see what happens. I tried it out and they were amazingly effective.

The only way I could see to balance them with the other elementals would be to

a) make them almost 100% ineffective in combat
b) make them not fly and slow down their movement to be in line with other elementals.
c) keep the gem cost

To me ( b ) would probably have been the easiest solution ( assuming it is possible ) but it would have been horribly unthematic. So Zen went with ( c ) which sounds fine to me.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I don't think I was trying to be harsh, just quick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I haven't had alot of time to peruse the forum as of late and an actual feedback question in this thread is pretty uncommon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif So if it sounded harsh, I apologize and no you don't sound harsh to me.

This is an idea, but the only way to really do this would kill the theme of the Air Elemental AFAIK. I have thought about modifying the Air Elemental to not have flying, but it felt very wrong, I also modified their attack to be a "Force of Wind" like a air punch and I still ran into the same problem of having Storm Exploitable Air Elementals who then, had an unresistable normal attack. I'm sure I could come up with a way to sufficiently nueter the Air Elemental while allowing it to flying in Storms and gaining a bonus in storms but as of yet I haven't been able to find the time to wrangle it into place. Also I've had a slight issue with finding a proper balance for Communion, which I have fixed in the latest release of the Spellmod. Maybe I'll take the time over the next few days to design a new weapon/stats to fit.

Possibly and I do see your point. However. If you take the case of the Ice Devil and break it down you have:

Lower Research
Super-Combatant Chassis
Lower Resources to Cast
Physically more Powerful than *any* other SC chassis except Lords of Hell and Possibly Air Queens.
Paths of Magic that provide a key component of a high end SC, Quickness/BoW the only other better path could concievably be Air.
One full Resistance (Cold) and no Vulnerabilities.

In balancing this unit you have to look first at what it provides for it's cost. Then you have to decide if there is an issue of this considered the "Best" or most efficent. If it is the "Best" or most efficent, is it limited or cost effective.

So based on this dynamic. The ID was nerfed to be in line with it's nearest counterpart, in-as-much if you had access to both spells, both were availiable and with the same amount of resources there would actually be a *choice* between the two instead of the logical decision being one.

Thus it was raised in Research (to stop the Rush), raised in Cost (for the choice) and given a vulnerability to counteract some of it's physically superior advantage over the Arch-Devil which in addition to it's own physically lower stats has a built in vulnerability. Forcing an ID to have a Fire Helmet, Charcoal Shield, or Hell Sword (common) is not actually much of a nerf in all actuality.

Water Elementals are not susceptible to fire but Ice Elementals are. These are not Water Devils, but Ice Devils http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The fire suceptibility was half thematic and half balance. There were other ideas, but none of them seemed to really fit and they 'nerfed' too much I felt. Resistances can be modified with Equipment thus are overcomable, whereas lowering HP is not. If you have what you consider a better idea for an Ice Devil, I'd be more than willing to hear it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, it seems to me like the change to Hama Dryads makes them very overpowered - True they are limited in how far they can range from home, but 20 of those gals guarding your fortress will make damn sure no-one comes close to taking it. I think a free 'enslave mind' is way too powerful.

apologies if anyone already mentioned this - I didn't read all 18 pages, but I did do a search, and didn't find anything on it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

No, even now they are not near overpowered, considering you need a lab in each province you summon them, which usually means a fort anyway, which means they become mostly a Last ditch defense...

This would be negated if you could move them around with Fairy Trod, Astral Travel, ect., but every turn away from their home province they take severe damage.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The Enslave Mind attack has 5 shots, and the hama dryad is almost worse than useless without it for the reasons QM listed. The proper solution is to bring enough chaff to render them irrelevant.

It's not an insurmountable problem.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Mr. Patrick! I haven't heard much feedback about the Spellmod, however, I have heard that people thought this was perhaps too powerful. Though QM and Edi are quick to point out they don't seem so, I tend to agree. I would have rather not had them "Enslave Mind" but perhaps Charm, or confuse or something similiar but the effect is really what I'm looking for.

For the Hama to be strong enough in it's singular role that it is extremely useful for what it can do. This comes from the fact that the unit will die within 2 turns of being outside their home province. They *might* be a little too cost efficent, but I haven't yet run into a situation with too many hama dryads that I haven't been able to deal with them before.

Something of note: When you make the Hama's have a 0/2 movement you actually see the AI use them, apparently when they have movement the AI will move them around and unknowingly kill them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

As a note, I think the charm spell also has the Enslave Mind attack effect, just that the spell sound effect is different because it is specified in a different place maybe? The Enslave Mind attack (that units may have) uses the astral spell default sound, and the nature spell charm uses the nature spell default sound, but it still has the same attack effect (it must, because all damaging spells with special effects must have something for the effect) because there are no others. Unless the spells have a Category of those all on their own, but I doubt it.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

It's at least slightly different. Since when you Charm a commander they keep their Commander status while if you Enslave Mind a Commander they are regulated to a Unit regardless of their previous status.

Hellbind Heart falls into this same Category.

It doesn't in actuality matter very much, I would love to be able to change the Enslave's Penetration bonus/penalty but that is doable with the current Mod tools. Same with Mind BLast.

So Edi, any feedback from you, O' Editor?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Haven't had time to actually try the spell mod out, I'm just assessing the differences based on what I know of the abilities, costs and effects that the modifications affect and drawing educated guesses.

I've been much too busy producing other documentation, like the completely revised, rechecked, expanded and more accurate magic site list that will be made available for public consumption tomorrow (as will an updated unit DB, though the modifications to that are pretty minor in comparison). And doing non-Dom2 related things. But I'm actually starting a couple of SP games to try out the spell mod. I should also update the Faerun map files (assign VPs to some places, correct at least one border error that slipped through and recheck a couple of other things), but that will take a couple of days.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Does Enslave Mind have a better inherent MR penetration than Charm? How about Hellbind Heart?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Im not sure if I read that right. Unless something changed then hellbind has no effect other than them switching sides. Ive gotten my best commanders, mages, equipment, and even multiple prophets with hellbind.

I also love the "double damage" thing. Not only have I gained powerful commanders with experience and equipment, but he has lost the same. His advancing army now has many units with no leader which cannot advance and will rout if even a scout attacks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

This means:

Charm = Hellbind Heart (You get commanders as commanders)

Enslave Mind, Master Enslave, turn commanders into units when they switch sides.

For Penetration: It's the same across the board except for the Enslave Mind Weapon, which has less penetration (I believe). Though of course the added penetration of exceeded Paths is different (Hellbind having the most potential Penetration with the same number of paths).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

What about making the enslave mind have a very high fatigue cost, or something like that?

Just to explain why I thought it was overpowered - I played a game vs. AI as Arco, and was attacked on several occasions by small Groups involving 5 Hama Dryads. I had a much larger force, but ended all such engagements losing most of my guys without killing a single one of the enemy. I agree that it would be hard to use this strategically, with the need to build labs etc., so what I am more concerned with is the defensive effect of having, say 10, dryads guarding each of your fortresses. stick in a couple of heavies to jam the doorway and your fortress is never going to fall - especially if you throw in a staff of storms to make sure flyers can't get in.
Also a handful of hama dryads would be worth sacrificing when used offensively, if they are basically able to take out your enemy's army (and probably win you some new troops (worth more than the summoning cost of the dryads themselves) in the process.

What about instead of giving them a ranged attack you just made them a lot tougher in combat - higher defense score, perhaps a life-drain melee attack, or something like that?

Other than this detail I like a lot of what you've done Zen. Have the devs tried this stuff out, does anyone know?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

IMO, higher defense score, life drain melee, etc, wouldn't make anyone go for hamadryads. And, I don't think any form of life drain would be particularly thematic, whereas a charm attack _is_ very thematic for dryads.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

yah. charm is best. if you could put the real spell in, w/ maybe 3 shots, that would be the best possibility.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I'd like to make the suggestion that you might want to take another look at the pretenders available to the aquatic nations and see if you couldn't figure out something to make them a bit more interesting. They really seem to be lacking an effective monster type, as the Kraken is nowhere near as fearsome as the new dragons. The wyrm is a possibility, but he's not that unique.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

There are new Versions of the Pretender and Spell Mods availiable here:

www.techno-mage.com/~zen/

Pretender Changes:

Lord of Fertility +100 PR
Lord of the Gates +5 Fear
Saurolich -1 Death, +1 Fire
Dracolich Basecost: 125, -Recuperation, +Immortality, +5 Prot
Dracolich (Bog Mummy) -Recuperation, +Immortality
Asynja -Recuperation
Lord of the Desert Sun +3 Berserk, Basecost: 110
Father of Serpents Basecost: 110, +Venomous Fangs (Deadly Poison)
Jade Emperor +7 Prot
Son of the Sea Basecost: 100, -1 Water, +1 Earth
Neried Basecost: 50


Spellmod Changes:

Too numerous list. I'll be sending the changes to Edi to modify the Readme that will be included more than likely on the webpage as well.

Also. I have a beta of the Scalemod, without the proper graphics to make it complete. If anyone would like to offer to make a few graphics for the Luck units, I would appreciate it since I haven't had alot of time to make sprites (mostly attack sprites).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, is this list for pretenders complete? I don't see recuperation for Asynja or either Dracolich form in 1.81, and I'm not sure if the poison cloud was removed from the father of serpents, but I think I saw something to that effect earlier.

Could you confirm that? I'd like the 1.9 readme to be as complete and accurate as possible.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I just went through the mod file with a fine tooth comb, which answered my questions, so no need to bother with that.

You have, however, made one mistake: You say the Nerid's cost should be 50, but it has in fact been changed to 75 in v1.9. Which one do you intend? I don't think adding the mounted status justifies a 50% increase in cost (Nerid's unmodded base cost is 50), so you should just leave it as is.

You should also add the word "Mod" into the mod description so that it will say "This is a Conceptual Balance Mod for..." instead of "This is a Conceptual Balance for...". And add the second dash into the comment line which identifies the pretender being modified as the Great Sage (the normal one, not the dragon alternate form).

If you email me a list of the spell changes, I can do the readme for that one, or I can just go through the mod files and see what has changed and go from there. I won't be able to produce the readme until tomorrow, and it might not be ready before Tuesday.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

While speaking of typos:

- In Pretenders/Spells mod descriptions, independently is spelt "independantly", and its is spelt "it's" in "its own particular niche use".
- In the description for the Son of the Sun, its is spelt "it's" in "The sun has gifted its heir". The same goes for the Oracle: "in its Dominion [...] Within its sacred waters"
- I do not know whether this bothers you or not, as Illwinter's descriptions do the same, but season is used to describe a turn, while a season Lasts three turns (Early Summer, Summer, and Late Summer for example).

I like the changes you have made to Pretenders, but do not have any actual comment (I have not delved much into the Spell mod yet).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The new fanatics are much more useful than the militia you used to get in special events, but I noticed that they also replace independent militia and Pythium's PD troops. Not sure if this makes a big difference balance wise, but it probably wasn't intended.

Wish I could give some feedback on the balancing, but I'm not enough of an authority to do so.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

they also replace one of the types of indy militia, which can make for an exciting battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

the pyth pd effect should proably be changed. hastati would improve the crappiness of their pd w/out going overboard.

also, zen if you wouldn't mind could you edit the first post of the thread so that the link goes to the mod page? (at the moment it attempts to download the no longer available original Version).

and it should be in the links sticky as well.

thanks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hmmm. Latest Version of all three mods, the zip file isn't containing a ReadMe anymore.

About the Scale Mod, I'm not sure what the default numbers are, so I'm thinking that Turmoil's income drop is reduced, while sloth / death / misfortune's ill effects have been increased? I'm guessing this is the case, as it makes the common Order/Sloth/Death/Misfortune combo less appealing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

That's because I've been busy with other things and haven't managed to do the readmes yet. Zen has not given me any info on the scale mod, I haven't seen anything regarding the new spell mod either despite his comment about emailing me about it, and the pretender readme is about ready, I went through that and the previous Version line by line to see what had changed and to make sure that the readme will be correct.

I'd rather not do the same for the spell mod, the changes are far more extensive, and I'm not sure if Zen has kept the formatting the same instead of putting all modified creatures, weapons etc into the appropriate sections. I'll see about getting it done, but no promises on the schedule.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Just curious - Is there still no public documentation for the magic item cost/requirements modding?

PvK

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Afaik, no. It should be forthcoming as soon as IW gets around to doing it (might be as early as patch 2.15, might not) and/or the modding beta testers (e.g. Psitticine, who did one of the earlier modding manuals, the one with the incomplete weapon list) get around to producing some.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

And it also replaces one of Man's recruitable militia units, giving Man somewhat of a boost (since the resource cost is high) but really boosting Pythium's PD pretty massively.

I'm guessing this is caused by the militia event having a hard-coded unit type/ID, so the only way to modify it was to change that specific unit type, with the ensuing ramifications to indies, Man, and Pythium.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Magic Duel not magic duelling ...

Often the AI consider a waste to spend 1 magic pearl to deal with 1 enemy ... and refuse to.
Even if the enemy is the pretender alone and your best way to kill him is to magic duel it.

It happened that mages with an advantage of +2 or better (I tried til +4 difference beetween my and enemy astral mage) to refuse to cast magic duel, and indeed cast other crappy thing, ending in my defeat.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I think there might be a typo with the Ageless Treelord; like the Vengeful Treelord, he gets nature gems and blood slaves instead of nature gems and earth gems (the latter being what his description suggests).

Intriguing mods. Eliminating Gift of Reason breaks a lot of cheese (and strongly differentiates Enslavement and Charming/Hellbinding), and eliminating Wish makes it a lot less interesting to horde clams. Like 'em so far.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

It is possible to change province defence of Pythium and recruitables of Man, so that they won't get the boosted militia. However, I haven't tested Zen's mods, so I don't know excatly what he has done.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

New Versions of the Mods availiable for testing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Much thanks to Zen for the effort!

Only a little question: is there somewhere a readme with the changes?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Not yet. There is no readme for the previous spellmod, and the pretender readme while done is not yet published. I've had other stuff to do so they got on backburner, and I haven't had any word from Zen. I'll see about trying to get them done (for all Versions). Must wait till next week, though, so you won't see anything for a few days.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Alright. I have a little time so I will put forth the ugly readme for everyone. I apologize I have been busy.

ScalesMod 1.1

First. The scalemod. The Stock are the unmodified values and Mod are the modified values replacing the stock. Rareevents is the likelyhood of the higher caliber of Luck events (Random Events are divided into two types, common and rare) per event.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Scale Stock Mod

Order/Turmoil Gold 7% Gold 6%
Productivity/Sloth Gold 2% Gold 4%
Resources 10% Resources 15%
Heat/Cold Gold 5% Gold 7%
Growth/Death Gold 2% Gold 4%
Population .02% Population .03%
Luck/Misfortune Event 10% Event 13%
RareEvent 15% RareEvent 20%</pre><hr />

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

These are the following changes to the Pretenders v2.0

There are some things which are limited by the Modding Tools availiable for Illwinter. One of which is a redistricting of Pretenders, along with other statistical, auto-summoning, battle-summoning, certain unit modifications, global modifications and others. The Conceptual Balance series is my concept of Balance of the Game to allow *everything* to be a viable and game mechanical worthy choice not specifically for theme. While there is no "best" there are certain Pretenders with certain nations better suited to various strategies. With this in mind, here are the changes.

** denote changes from the Last Version

Weapons (weapon nbr / weapon name / changes)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(61) Fire Breath +1 AOE
(62) Bile +2 AOE
(254) Plague Breath +1 Ammo +1 AOE
(4) Lance +1 Length
(357) Light Lance +1 Length

New Weapons:
(999) Wing Buffet dmg -5, att 0, def 1, length 5, aoe 1 (flail, bonus)
(998) Roar dmg -5, att 0, def 0, length 5, aoe 1 (flail, bonus)

Pretenders (monster nbr / monster name / changes)

Monster:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(973) Ancient Kraken +50 PR, +50 CR
(779) Divine Serpent Pathcost: 30
(265) Dragon (blue) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(266) Dragon (green) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(216) Dragon (red) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(226) Great Sage (r. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, **+Mountain Survival, +Wasteland Survival
(267) Frost Father (b. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Sailing, **+Mountain Survival
(268) Master Druid (g. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, **+Swamp Survival
(644) Dracolich **Basecost: 150, +8 Prot, +4 Prec, +Immortal, +Wing Buffet
(645) Bog Mummy **+25 FR, +Immortal
(Dracolich 2nd shape)
(462) Manticore +8 Prot, +2 Att, +2 Def, +Wing Buffet
(294) Nerid Basecost: 75, +Mounted
(608) Phoenix +Fire
(334) Golden Naga Basecost: 90, -2 Enc, +Mounted, +Body Slot, Dominion: 2
(157) Naga Basecost: 90, -2 Enc, +Mounted, +Body Slot, Dominion: 2, Stealth 0
(655) Scorpion King +Mounted, +Body Slot
(661) Shedu +2 Def, -2 Enc, +Wing Buffet, +Earth
(978) Great Black Bull Pathcost: 60, -2 Enc
(979) Great White Bull Pathcost: 60, -2 Enc
(269) Wyrm Basecost: 50, +4 Def

(138) Medusa +4 HP
(383) Prince of Death +100 CR, +100 PR
(215) Virtue +Astral, -Air


Giant:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(501) All-Father Pathcost: 50
(955) Asynja Basecost: 100, -2 Air, +Astral, +Nature, +Glamour, +Stealth 25
(156) Cyclops **+20% Forge Bonus
(109) Dagon +6 Def
(385) Daughter of the Land Basecost: 75, +Earth
(606) Great Mother -1 Enc
(603) Father of Serpents +3 Def, +2 Prec, Poison Cloud: 6
(858) Jade Emperor -1 Enc, +2 Prec
(964) Lord of Fertility +Awe +2, +Nature
(957) Lord of the Desert Sun +3 Def, +2 Prec, +Roar
(388) Lord of the Gates **Basecost: 75, +Fear, +Astral
(604) Lord of the Night Basecost: 125
(812) Lord of the Wild Basecost: 125
(387) Mother of Lions +3 Def, +Stealth 0, +Roar, +Nature
(961) Son of the Sea **Basecost: 100, -Water, +Earth, +Mapmove
(386) Son of the Sun (red) +2 Fire Gems
(384) Son of the Sun (white) Basecost: 75, +Fire
(602) Titan (Male) Basecost: 110, +1 Att, +1 Def, +1 Prec, +Mountain Survival, +Mapmove
(600) Titan (Female) +Nature
(652) Void Lord -Head Slot, Dominion: 3


Immobile:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(958) Colossal Head +Nature, +Blood
(1025) Divine Glyph Basecost: 75, +Immortal
(656) Fountain of Blood Pathcost: 30, +10 HP, +3 Blood Slaves
(158) Oracle Pathcost: 30, +10 HP, +2 Astral Gems
(657) Monolith +2 Nature Gems
(472) Sacred Statue Basecost: 30, Pathcost: 20, -Astral,


Human (rainbow):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(401) ***** Queen +5 Prec, +Stealth 0
(402) Crone (BQ 2nd shape) -3 Enc, +3 Prec
(246) Freak Lord +11 HP, -2 Enc, +Nature
(245) Arch Druid +11 HP, -2 Enc
(248) Arch Mage (Water) +11 HP, -2 Enc
(244) Arch Mage Basecost: 25, +11 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 2
(509) Arch Seraph Basecost: 50, +8 HP
(249) Crone = Hag Basecost: 25, +6 HP, -2 Enc, +3 Prec, +Iron Crutch
(250) Frost Father
= Rime Mariner Basecost: 45, +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Sailing
(270) Master Druid Basecost: 45, +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Swamp Survival
(251) Great Sage Basecost: 25, +8 HP, -2 Enc
(485) Great Enchantress Basecost: 45, +7 HP, -2 Enc, +Ethereal
(873) Great Seer of the Deeps Basecost: 45, +9 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 2, +Water
(486) Great Warlock -2 Enc, Dominion: 2, +Quarterstaff, +Fire
(550) Master Alchemist +9 HP, -2 Enc, +2 Prec, +Earth
(857) Smoking Mirror +5 HP, -2 Enc
(858) Smoking Mirror (Jaguar) +16 HP, -1 Enc, +7 Prec, +13 MR
(500) Skratti = Elder Skratti -1 Enc, +1 Att, +3 Def, +Blood
(653) Serpent King **+8 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 3
(654) Serpent King (Serpent) +16 HP, -2 Enc, +3 Def, +2 Prec
(874) Divine Emperor -2 Enc, Dominion: 3


(872) Ghost King Basecost: 110, Pathcost: 30
(180) Master Lich = Arch Lich **+1 Death Gems, +Disease Cloud 6
(179) Lich +50 FR
(395) Lich Queen +50 FR
(320) Saurolich +50 FR
(643) Bog Mummy +25 FR



Unedited Pretenders:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(607) Baphomet
(1026) Carrion Dragon
(601) Lady of Fortune
(120) Moloch
(956) Mother of Tuathas
(499) Nataraja
(605) Son of Niefel
(159) Sphinx
(862) Vampire Queen
(546) Void Lurker

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Comprehensive readme files for Spell mods 1.6 and 1.7 and Pretender mods 1.9 and 2.0 will be made available tomorrow. Right now it's too bloody late (0:45 am) and my gf will kill me if I don't shut the computer down very soon, is why the delay.

The readme's will have a major change of format in that everything will be displayed with the current modded values followed by original values in parentheses, instead of the previously used +/- x without reference to original value. I got too bloody tired referencing my own weapons and unit databases every time there was some minor change, and it will make the readmes more user friendly.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

From the game this Sunday, it seems that the current elemental summoning spells may need tweaking - several of us thought that putting a gem requirement back might be good, because it's currently possible to really spam elementals. True, not with most national mages (albeit Atlantis, Abysia, Caelum, etc could manage it on a limitted scale) but a pretender going for a 9 or 10 bless winds up being able to churn out elementals every cast with almost no fatigue loss to limit it. Likewise, the elemental royalty and arch devils could spam elementals almost unlimittedly with a couple of boosters.

And, since the AI prefers to summon things more than almost anything else, it tends to continue to pump elementals after the script has run out.

Just seems a little unbalanced, watching a Moloch spew forth 15 or more full size fire elementals with his fatigue staying about 20 or 30. Said Moloch had a small army with him, but with just a dozen Mictlanish slaves would probably have slowed down 130 carrion creatures (or most other armies) long enough for the torrent of elementals to wipe out the opposing army.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

actually caelum can't spam elementals, air ones still need gems, but you don't even need a level 9 bless to spam elementals, an earth 6 or 7 cyclops can cast summon earth power and keep the elementals coming the entire battle. I would recomend upping the fatige cost to 100-200, a very high level bless could still spam for a while, but would eventually run out.

odd_enuf

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

100+ fatigue cost will then add a gem to the cost, so...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I had heard that the fatigue cost was set low to keep communions from killing themselves off with elementals after script ran out.

Adding a gem would solve spamming, but result may be that that spell is just never used.

What about raising path by one, and raising fatigue from 40 to 60? Would that make the spell still used/usable, but not overpowered or deadly to communions?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Well, the original elemental spells mostly took 2 gems; if they were 1 gem apiece they might be used....

I think the problem may be that if a communion can effectively use the spell, an uber mage (pretender, elemental king, etc) can spam it....

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

You have a good point.

Would modding the elementals themselves to make them a bit weaker be a solution?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

All right, here are the readme files for the following mods:
CB Spells 1.6 and 1.7
CB Pretenders 1.9 and 2.01

If you're wondering about the 2.01 Version designation, it's because I fixed a couple of minor typos in the mod file and rearranged the pretenders to the same order they are listed in the readme so that future readme updates won't be such a goddamn fukking pain in the arse. The 2.01 Pretender mod is naturally included in the package. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Crash, I think the best solution would be to up the fatigue cost for the elemental summoning spells to around 90 to limit spamming (you could still spam if you had relief casters or bards when playing Man, but it would mitigate the problem somewhat. Adding a gem requirement for the full elementals would work, but I suspect the result would just be a lesser elemental spam.

Edi