Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

It's certainly a sore spot. But the infrastructure in the interface is more or less there to add it back in - albeit not for the release, but perhaps a significant patch down the road.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

There is a big UI problem that stands in my way, its the way the units are NOT stacked in the planets & ships cargo. Even the turn log will tell you that you have produced 30 units with 30 messages. Quite strange that it bothers just me.

Aside that, the battle engine stutters quite a lot, am I alone with the problem?

(still a great game)

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Bothers everyone, I think. Email your issues to MM and ask Aaron to fix it, if enough people do so he might correct it.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

And you know this, how? Frankly, I'd much rather have the current system than the horribly unbalanced and gamey mess that was present in SE4.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

I know this because I have talked to a lot of people about it. We could run a poll if you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

There was nothing wrong with the system in SE4, other than some not balanced costs in the stock game. Once you balanced the costs, the characteristic system worked really well. Much, much better than the crappy trait cost setup in the stock SE5 game, which is more unbalanced than even the stock SE4 setup was.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Adjustable racial characteristics would be nice! More flexibility and choices are preferable to the limited selections available in the present setup.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

I agree, the SE4 system was neat with both traits and characteristics. Balance can always be tweaked, but removing the characteristics feature completely just limits the player's options, which isn't a good thing.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

se5 current set up is just as, if not more unbalancing than se4 system.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

I agree. It was the race/trait setup in SEIV that made it so easy to like(for me), I love RPG's and having an RPG element in SEIV made it much easier to get into.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Personally, I think people are mostly bemoaning the lack of the sliders simply because they were used to them. The current system may be just as unbalanced and crappy, but it is at least fundamentally sound. Sliders are a flawed idea from the get-go. +/- one percent to anything doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make much difference. Even +/- five percent is really peanuts. All the sliders did was make it very difficult to properly balance and encourage min-max powergaming. The current system may be just as unbalanced, but we are almost definitely going to see more balanced mods as a result of the new approach.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

But we are also going to see lists that scroll on forever with dozens of the same sort of traits at different levels...

A good compromised would have been like a 5-point scale for most aptitudes, and then a separated page for selecting unique racial traits for technology or special skills.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Such lists as you describe would be an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole, to "sliderize" the new system, which I feel is a mistake. There should be only two or three options at most for each area, and certainly more than +/- 5%. If you have +10%, +25%, and +50%, I think that pretty well covers the field. No need for +15%, +20%, etc.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

I agree, that's why I said a 5-point scale would be best (ie poor > excellent, increments of 10% actual effect?) for presentation.

In your example, take the 10 or so typical aptitudes and add 6 traits for each one and all of a sudden you have 60 traits that would take up many "pages" worth of the traits screen. Yuck. It's already bad enough with the 30 or so actual traits that exist now.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

arthurtuxedo said:
All the sliders did was make it very difficult to properly balance...

Huh? It is pretty easy to balance them out... many existing mods do so. PvK Balance mod for a stock tech tree, Adamant, CB, etc., etc.

but we are almost definitely going to see more balanced mods as a result of the new approach.

We have a bunch of well balanced mods for SE4 already. The lack of "sliders" will contribute zilch to "more balanced mods" in the racial setup department.

"Sliders" are great because they are compact. You don't need 8 separate entries to get a good range (eg: -20 to +20 in increments of 5) to accomplish this. MOO2 managed to have a race design screen that put a bunch of options in little space; SE5 fails at this miserably.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Some SE4 mods are well balanced, but the majority aren't. It's easier to visualize balance for people who aren't great at it when you have a smaller range of options to consider. That's why I feel it will contribute to more balanced mods. Obviously, if you're Malfador and your idea of balance is this, then it still won't be balanced, but modders who are better at balance than MM, but still suck will be helped.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Dragging the well-balanced mods down to make the rest look better isn't an improvement.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Well, I suppose we're arguing tastes and preferences now. I also prefer oranges to apples, and anyone who disagrees is flat out wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

You can't ban eggs to prevent kids from throwing them at your house without also preventing yourself from baking a cake.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

More balanced mods as in, mods that are more balanced, or the quantity of mods with balanced trait costs will be larger? I think we may be reading it with opposing meanings of "more." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Really, it's a trivial thing to include PvK Balance Mod in your SE4 mod. Any modder that does not either does not know of it or is just lazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ideally, Aaron should have just made the stock costs balanced in both games. But alas...

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

The third option is that they have done the work themselves to find a good balance with their own mod's underlying physics.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

I meant that a greater percentage of the mods out there would be acceptably balanced. People who are good at balancing will obviously produce well-balanced mods, and it's understandable to say "well, they should have balanced their mod better," but the fact remains that a higher number of mods with acceptable balance is better for all of us. I do see your point about the sliders being more compact, but I still think they encouraged min-maxing and made it more difficult for some less competent modders to balance.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

the SEV system encourages min-maxing just as much as "sliders" does. it just does it in single blocks instead of smaller steps.

don't for crying out loud limit the good modders just because bad modders can't do (or are to lasy to do) basic math.

a propper "slider" system with a formula could allow diminishing returns for the cost as it goes up (or an exponetial increase in cost for each 'step'. THIS system is automaticly balancing (up to a point) since minimizing something will give you diminishing points, but maximizing something will cost you exponetialy. therefore, min-maxing will be more costly than going for something in the middle.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

and I might add, with a modable formula you can do whatever the hell you like.
(and btw, some people like being able to min-max, personaly I don't mind it up to a point, but I can see why others do.)

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

With the current system, everything is either minned or maxxed, since the only options are full up and full down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Well, there is the don't touch anything choice too, but that is almost never optimal.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Like I said, tastes and preferences. I've made my case and you've made yours. Fence sitters who are reading will have been convinced by one side or the other by this point.

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

*falls of a fence* BUMP! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

So, how does a fence fall? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Quite well, thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

Yeah, I've noted that. Taking the railing off the sundeck was easy - Especially since it was held on by friction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SEV DEMO IS OUT!
 

It's good to see that the talisman now gives a to hit bonus but does not guarantee 100% hit rate. Also, it's nice that quantum reactor generates only a finite amount of supplies. These make more sense than the ones from SEIV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif