Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Thanks for your input Cleveland. I like your map and I like your placement suggestions. If everyone is ok with these, let us use it and be done with it.

Hoplo, while your suggestions are good and appreciated, the irregularity of normal or random maps introduces placement issues that I just don't want to be bothered with this time. Having some water does provide some interesting strategic options even for land only nations. Symetrical maps probably make equi-distant and equally spaced placements (without regard to surrounding terrain and other biased factors) much easier and thus reduce the chance of any charges of unfairness or other such things.

Both teams (particularly the vet team) shall have the right to review the nations I place in these starting locales as suggested by cleveland and/or to specify which of their nations once assigned goes where. I hope this will be satisfactory for all.

Edit: the two centermost vets seem to be a bit off center though, I might shift them 1 province south, to make everything a bit more even and it may be best to move the noob out of the center and have 6 noobs north and six south. But otherwise everything else looks fine to me. But those are just my suggested revisions. If people don't want them, we can just go for Clevelands original placement.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well fortunately we don't need as many starts as Cleveland has on his map so there would only be one noob at the back. We will just have to support the guy in the centre :p

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I like both your suggestions Sept, especially if you're not comfortable putting one guy in the center. Whether you move him north or to the extra south position is up to you, if he goes north putting him at 231 places him in the north without crowding the starts already there. If he goes south there's the extra start that you could use.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Ideally, in a perfect world, with a perfect map, I'd like to have every nation x number of spaces from every other nation on their side and y number of spaces from the enemy, and so forth. So many spaces from the coast, etc. Mathematical as it were. No possiblity of unfairness. I think this is a good map because the left and right sides are mirror images of each other.

Hmmm, there are some issues with a nation or two on the noob side being in the rear, something I'd prefer not to have, but they'd still have access via water or I could shift arround the noob land starts for more land access. Still I think this map is the best compromise.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

i think that it is important that one team does not know where the other teams nations are... this is an important part of dominions3


however if you mean each team will be allowed to review their own placements or select their own placements that sounds cool... (with the start location public knowledge but the location of which nation is where not being so?right?)


no noob will be on the back line on this map... the place that looks like a back line is really just the waterfront!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

That is correct namad, the general start locations of the noob and vet teams will be public knowledge (something which can be easily guessed anyway), but neither side will know which of the enemies nations is in each particular spot. Though I did want to place the vets to be in the center encircled by the noobs instead of the Cleveland's opposite side suggestion. Would the vets object if I came up with that sort of arrangement? It would mean the vets would not have immediate direct access to the water though and may cut out an important strategic element. I suspect the vets will be better at getting into the water (and staying there) than the noobs are anyway. :D

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I fixed it...Vets in the center :D
Attachment 8361
If you put the Vets in the center of the landmass, the sea becomes irrelevant. And impossible for the Vets to capture late-game.

Damn bourbon, always getting me to obligate myself to things I've no time for! We'll see...;)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

My proposal would be - give each team one part of the map, and assign a captain to pick a start province for each nation/player, which is then not shared with the other team.

Or, if you don't want to give the vets an advantage in that the noobs might mess this up somehow, you could just assign starts to the noobs and then let the vets fiddle themselves around.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

How about having the Vets in something of a line from north to south, with a bulge in the middle - something like this, perhaps:

--------------V
--------------
--------------V
-----------V-----V
--------------V
--------------
--------------V

Noobs could be dispersed in two crescents of 6 members each to the east and west. The Vets would have water access, and hopefully no Noob would get stuck in the rear, or in the middle of a s**t sandwich. Anyway to make that work?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I very much like this suggestion of TwoBits on this map... it leaves very few provinces uncontestable and, if placed properly, could allow a little extra time before first contact.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I'm so rooting for Cleveland's suggestion, it beautifully solves the problem in vet team in the middle, i.e. the water being left behind noobs. Exact positions can be fiddled with, but thus far I'd say it's the best suggestion.

I see a fatal flaw in TwoBit's suggestion, the crescent noob position is really weak in some regards. Rather wouldn't see that one.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

This is one of the reasons I prefer TwoBits' suggestion.

The setup suggested by cleveland allows the vets to expand toward us, stifling our expansion, while saving that huge circle of uncontestable provinces for later.

TwoBits' suggestion requires/allows the vets to decide how to pursue this war rather than setting them up for an obvious approach.

Frankly, I suspect the noobs would be better served to set up like this:

---N
----
----N
-----
-N---N
-----
----N
----
---N

With a mirrored approach on the right side of the island. But that would hand us the HUGE backyard I just belly-ached about the vets having... :o

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Excuse me, but I was wondering...

Wasn't skill difference between teams like, the point of the game? Hence the 2-to-1 outnumbering?

And still, putting up a noob nation distribution with far-away points is a bad idea. "Why" is left as an excercise to the reader.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

That's true in a way, but what you're saying is that the vets will benefit from the sea more than the noobs because of their experience or because they're better players. In which case, isn't that the whole point? Under Cleveland's plan, both teams have equal access to the seas, and the noob team has much better access to the north/south parts which under this map have dozens of connections due to the polar cap. If the noobs aren't able to exploit or failing that raid 0-PD seas, improving their access won't help that at all.


Two-Bits suggestion is pretty good, but if the point is to balance the number of "uncontestable" provinces, then its pretty much a must that the noob team be placed in two crescents. I don't think it solves the seas problem either, the vet team still has access to the poles and we can place our amphibs there and have easy access to the oceans anyway. I can't see Raeil's suggestion being balanced for the reasons he mentioned. A formation (like a circle) that removes vet access to the seas is unbalanced because we don't get access to the seas. I don't see an easy solution to that particular issue.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

How about these starts? Both teams are in semicircles, the noobs semicircles are bigger, both teams have a very small backfield. Both teams are forced to expand towards the center and towards each other. There's no weakness of a crescent formation, which is bad for the guys on the tips. I understand the less people have a position away from the front the better, but if you leave some space in between the two outer guys, your team should be able to get them to the front with some coordination. If we place all the caps in a semicircle, then you'll have too big of an uncontested area.

All I really did was adjust the starts in Cleveland's version backwards a little. The noob starts near the center appear close together but due to the prov connections they're actually somewhat separated. I included alternate starts in yellow if you want more separation between capitals.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

It seems the vets and newbs are set, so I'll back out. Thanks and good luck!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

what are the goals? what are the problems? if you don't want people fighting too soon you could always remove a line of neighboring connections between the rings... and force all combat to a) go through the middle or b) go through the sea?

or wait? what are the goals? what are the complaints? all these suggestions seem really similar? i have no idea what's really being discussed i guess... but hey i commented!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Hm, two semicircles for the Noobs leaves at least 4 players far behind the action - sure, allies can leave a 'tunnel' of territory toward the front, but that's pretty convoluted, probably causes dominion problems, and can be easy for the Vets to interdict (you can block that 'tunnel' anywhere along the length, cutting access to the front, or forcing the player to fight his way through allied territory).

The original 'hour-glass' formation is no good either, or at least it's certainly no good for the Noob in the middle of the hour-glass - he's certainly doomed right off the bat. Plus there's still the issue of Noob players stuck in the backfield.

I still think my 'linear-bulge' formation for the Vets is the most sensible way to go. It's the only set-up that gets everyone in the action without "tunneling" and other awkward strategies. And sure, the 4 Noobs at the 'horns' of the two crescents are in somewhat more vulnerable positions, but remember, they'll have teammate directly opposite the Vet they'll be facing to take some of the pressure off.

I'm not sure what people are talking about regarding the water 'poles', but if they (whatever they are) seem to be too much of an advantage for the Vets to exploit, the Vets can be deployed horizontally instead of vertically (or heck, diagonally for that matter).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Huh, I thought I posted before, but my internet must have gone silly. Anyway, I'll happily play Shinuyama, and I'm sorry about all the delays. My return trip was slightly nightmarish.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

what backline? there is no backline only a waterfront... the backline can swing around the polar cap and attack from behind? i mean there is no way to arrange things on this map and not have a backline..... the only way to totally avoid backlines is with a map like zeldor's... with a highway system that reroutes the backline straight to the frontline and on zeldor's map this highway is "caves" on clevelands map it is "waterbased polar icecaps"


so...yeah... ?hrmm?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

What do you mean by backline? Is that the same as 'backfield'? OK, sure, with a wraparound map, there is no hard back-line border. And sure, if you're playing Vanheim, or some other sailing race, you might be OK (although where can you sail to? the only land you can probably reach would be your teammate across the 'polar cap').

But if we go with TheDemon's set-up, if you're one of those 4 Noob teams 'stuck' behind your teammates (yes, in a land-centric view), you have to do a lot of awkward maneuvering to reach the front via land, or somehow get into the water, and then circle 90 degrees around the map, to get at the enemy - how long is that going to take? never, if you're say, Abyssia).

My 'linear-bulge/two-crescents' set-up is the nearest thing we're going to get to the ideal 'vets in the center of a circle of noobs' set-up with this map. No noob has to sit out of the action early on (or resort to difficult, complicated, and easily thwarted 'tunneling'), and the vets still get sea access (granted, with only two nations, but they can just put their strongest water/sailing powers at either end of the line).

Hey, just my two cents, but I know I would not like to be one of the 4 noobs who has to snake his way to the front, or sit on his thumbs staring at the water until he's forged/summoned an aquatic force.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

if the vets get a line down the center... and the noobs are not all placed along the sea that would end up giving the noobs a giant central location totally surrounded only by their own nations ... so...

the only way to even consider making the vets a central line would be to make all the noobs coastal... which would result in every noob being far away from every vet.... this would however limit the nature of having 4backline noobs but.... on a team of 12v6 4backline players is not that bad especially since they can make attempts to cross the ocean and aren't literally blocked in... i guess either or is fine with me though... it's just if i was on your team i'd want some backline players intentionally

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Its not just the water polar caps, the southern ones are half land as well.

Anyway, here's the crescent starts. Like namad says, the noobs basically have to be all coastal, or else you're going to have to explain why an inland position is in any way fair. Could be workable. The two vets in the center are kind of close though, I'd like them to be farther apart as pushing back allied dominion is never fun.

You could also invert the formation I proposed, attached as well. That would get each noob onto the frontline, more or less.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

That's why I suggested that the Vet's line "bulged" in the middle, with something akin to a diamond shape.

Yeah, I had some thoughts that it might be wise to have some 'production' nations in the rear, supposedly out of harms way. But the consensus was that that would lower the odds for those who had to slog it out on the front - with say 4 noobs in the rear, at the front the odds would only be 3-2 instead of 2-1.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Still could use ya as vet alternate if you don't mind.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I'm glad to see everyone weighing in on this placement issue, even Dr. P had a word or two to say. Both TwoBits and TheDemon have valid arguments. TwoBits, what do you think of TheDemons last two thumbnails? Both of which lets us bring all our nations forces to bear via land routes.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Namad proposed something like this on IRC, and I'm inclined to agree. Less dominion-induced suicide for the vets, and more provinces in contention as the vets don't get a big interior. The offset starts aren't symetrical, but I think they're fairer.

The one attached to this post gets my vote.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

TheDemon, repost that last thumbnail side by side with the second thumbnail from the previous post. Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Asymetrical Starts, Vets in Center (my vote):
http://i43.tinypic.com/10xrqqe.jpg

vs

Symetrical Starts, Noobs in Center crescents, Vets in Outside semicircles:
http://i43.tinypic.com/fx6p2c.jpg

I'm told at least one member of our team really opposes the 2nd one because they feel it gives the noobs too many uncontested provs.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Unoptimized has picked Shinuyama, we now await a final decision on placement and the vet team needs to PM me their list of nations.

We've a new noob alternate, Kietsensei.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

The 2nd version gives the noob team like four times as many uncontested provinces as the vet team in my estimation(didn't count). According to our counting the first version gives the noob team about 30uncontested land provinces to the vets 20or so while also giving the noobs much much better access to the sea provinces.


obviously I vote for the 1st version as it's what i suggested to thedemon on irc... also the 1st version has as was mentioned... fairly reduced risk of teammate domkills. Although I haven't personally verified the distances and neighboring counts of all the provinces I've checked many of them in this regard.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Hello everyone,

I am looking forward to join the team. I hope there will be a spot to fill before the game start :) Otherwise I am ready to sub anyone in the noob team!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

If you mean uncontested, as in more provinces in closer proximity to noob caps, we must remember that the noobs have twice as many players and require twice as much space to expand, and that might nullified by the noobs teams likely slower expansion rate.

I must say though, TheDemons two proposals look good at first glance, I must confer with my fellows and take a closer look at the map. Good work by all.

Version 1 puts more noobs in proximity to the water and there seems to be more space between friend and foe (one of my objectives). However version 2 does seem to follow the contours of the left/right symetry better and does seem to provide more room for noob expansion.

My objectives for placement are btw:

1. Maximum distance between friend and foe.
2. Equi-distant placement of starting locations.
3. Noob team can bring all 12 nation's land forces to bear on the vets.

Noobs, take a look at those two suggestions by TheDemon and let me know what you think. Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Here is a wild suggestion for the last game...
we don't go with preset but instead just place 18 starts. and have it random who gets what

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well if those are the objectives then we would be better off with a random map and three parallel lines of Noobs / Vets / Noobs. Like I suggested earlier :p

I don't really see what the wrap around or the large amount of sea in Cleveland's (otherwise excellent) map adds to this game. As long as you don't give the edge powers large safe hinterlands behind I don't think the wrap around will be an issue here as in a normal mp game where it favours those powers at the edge.

If the worry is my square map suggestion has ally dom kill issues then just make the map not square. A roughly 15*24 (= 360 provs) would give more space between the Capitals in each row. And you could zig zag the rows of Capitals slightly if you are really concerned.

If you look at Demon's central version it is similar to what I propose but by using Cleveland's map some of the Noobs are very close to the Vets at the start and there is very little that can be done to prevent this if you want all enemies to have easy direct access to each other (if you didn't you just have Noobs hidden behind other Noobs - but I don't think this is very desireable.

We are already going to have to get someone to manually place the starting position (unless we adopt Lavaere's proposal). So why not just use a random map? It really is very simple to do :angel

I would post some examples but don't know how to get a decent screenshot of the map. How are people doing that :confused:

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Hm, TheDemon's first 'revised' map seems possible, but as Hoplosternum mentions, the Noobs at the 'corners' of the crescents are much closer to vets than others.

Was there a problem with having the 4 center vets in a diamond formation like this?:

-----v
-----v
---v---v
-----v
-----v

Is there a dominion-fratricide issue with that set-up? Matched with that, the noob-crescent could be modified, with the 2nd and 5th noobs inset a little from the coast, sort of fitting slightly into the 'pockets' of the vet's diamond. Crap, did that make any sense?

----n---v---n----
-----------------
--------v--------
----n-------n----
-----------------
n---------------n
-----v-----v-----
n---------------n
-----------------
---n---------n---
--------v--------
-----------------
---n----v----n---

Well, that's a very, very rough and ugly approximation of what I'm talking about. I wish I was better and things graphical and computery, but I'm pretty much no better than a trained monkey at these things :D


Um, so why not a random rectangular map, as per Hoplo's suggestion?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Out of curiousity: why are the noobs so against having a backfield player? Is it that the boredom of that position outweighs its value, for you?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Well, I think that's part of it, but only a small part. To have a certain amount of players to accept a 'support' role would always be difficult, but I think it would be especially so in a team of "Noobs", who, for the most part, have never played together, and, by definition, lack experience.

I mean, that kind of willing team sacrifice would be the mark of, well, a veteran player, folks who have played a lot, interacted a lot, and know each other reasonably well.

That's quite hard for us Noobs to coordinate. Plus, there are some valid strategic concerns, like if you have 4 Noobs in the "backfield", the odds at the point of conflict (the "front" as it were) are much reduced, from 2-1 to 3-2.

Yeah, theoretically the Noobs could make that up, and then some, with whatever the "backfield" nations were producing, but that's kind of hard to coordinate. I suppose if you gave us noobs a couple of months or so(!!!), after the map and all the races have been chosen, to get to know each other, maybe game out a bunch of scenarios, we might be OK with such a set-up ;)

In the absence of that, I think we need to go with our strength - 2-1 odds, and press that advantage from the get-go.

That's how it seems to look to me (and I did volunteer for a support role when I joined this game).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Just to clarify, I was planning on placing 18 starts anyway so it is just a matter of where. I'll have to check the map/mod manual but I believe specstart will overide the no-start terrain masks that Cleveland has set up for most of the provinces, or I can just uncheck em in the editor. If TheDemon's turn out to be the ones already pre-set, hey that is fine too and makes it even more unbiased and less likely that an error in judgement will be made.

As in TheDemon's screenshots, both teams will know all the start locations (something which is easy enough to guess or locate via scouting). But, and here is the beauty, each team will have discretion as to which of their nations goes where. The start locations being public knowledge, removes any possiblity of partiality and thus the need for a third pary. And with the ability to decide which of the alloted starting locations your team's nations will reside in each team will have a measure of control. Everyone is happy!

True, following Hoplo's idea (see thumbnail below) we could eliminate water provinces entirely and create a random rectangular map, and place noobs in parallel lines opposing a center line of vets. This would give us more space between the opposing lines and thus much more time before hostilities break out. However, the distribution of provinces just looks uneven and unqual to me. Can starts be placed evenly and equally distant throughout such a map as easily as with Cleveland's? Could we then get a third party to place starts that would satify both teams? How much time do you guys want to spend with this? Don't we want some water for strategic options, certain nations? And it just looks terrible. I suppose a perfect grid if possible would be what I'd want, but that would look even worse. :)

I think we should stick with Planet Rorschach, check TheDemon's placement bias (there won't be any except Cleveland's if some or all of them are the preset ones), and if desired enact an NAP. But I will go the way of the majority if I deem it will move us along faster and solve most of the problems.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Looking at Thedemon's placement suggestions in version 1. I see only one or two things that I have questions about.

1. Noob starting locations 232,233 have 3 land neigbors and 1 water neighbors. The vet's centermost two positions have 4 land neighbors. Will having that 4th province a water neighbor result in any economic disparity between the two pairs of starts?

2. The vets starter at 25 would be right next to polar province 11, which has like 15 neigbors (many of them water provinces). Would a fort here owned by the vets result in an economic or naval powerhouse?

Perhaps moving the two nearby polar vets toward the center, to say like 229 and 158, as twobits suggested, would resolve the second issue and also lessen the pressure on the crescent tips.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I will try and attach a couple of JPEGs that I have made from quick random maps I've just made.

360 Provinces - 2400 * 1500 pixels and between 2-4% sea

Yellow dots = Vets
Red Dots = Noobs

All starts have at least 4 and usually 5 neighbours. And are usually 3+ provinces between team mates. Some only have 2 but with a bit of zig zagging / more careful placement this could be increased.

At least 4 and usually 5 provinces seperate all Noob & Vet capitals. You could guarantee at least 5 with more careful placement.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

If the vets are along a central line then the vets have to be near the polar caps this is just a fact. One extra mapmove away makes little to no difference. If this is an issue one can simply remove some of those neighbor connections? Or maybe flip things so the southern polar cap is water as well as the northern? Theres nothing in this era to recruit underwater anyways. Also if a start location only has 3neighbors it should probably be moved one square in a direction giving it 4neighbors.

The random map would probably be fine... It feels like we're putting too much effort into arguing this and it's been way too many days of deliberation to me.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I'm still here, and still reading the posts. Just not posting anything. Just waiting for someone to tell me which nation I am to play.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

So, has team noob compiled their nation list? I think we're waiting for them to say so so we can get the nation selection done.

And as to the map, I hate anything that puts teams in a line, as there's little support ability from other teams to the point guys. But can and will play, lets just get it over with.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

1. I don't see a great effect as the quality of neighbouring provinces has an effect too.

2. Water province resources won't transfer to land forts and vice versa.

But, fiddle around, and lets get this started.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

The noob team nation list is ready to go.
Vet team, I am waiting for you to PM me your nation list.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

I was just about to prod you guys about this, but I see I don't have to. The faster this gets done the better, because the noobs seem to be having some second thoughts about the nation lineup, and are planning to go through the selection process again once they know what all nations they're getting. So that might take a few more days.

Seems it's been about a month since this thread was created. This game seems to be going for the record on longest amount of time spent organizing a game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

That is correct rdonj. I applaud everyone though for the time and effort. I've just been reviewing all proposals.

Hoplo, your idea will work, but I don't see much difference in the front line spacing and if there is water on a random map, it is really not possible to control where it will appear.

I've thus made a decision to use Demon's version 1 and we will move the noob provinces at 232 and 233 inward by 1 prov. We must get going.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Wow, almost 300 messages and over 6,000 views, and we haven't even started yet. This thread may surpase artifacts in visits and posts.:D

What is the verdict on an NAP? The noobs so far seem to think we would be best served without it. I know my settings tend toward quicker hostilities, but I've my heart set on em.

Hmm, the only other way to delay hostilities would be to use an even wider version of Hoplo's map, with starts very, very, very, far apart. But the having the water does provide an interesting strategic element for capable nations such as Ermor, Agartha, or Shin. So onward!! We've done the best with the map we can, onward towards a very action packed game!