Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Okay, version 1.04 is out. See the first post for changelist.

To answer the comments above suggesting waiting for gameplay responses before making further changes: that does indeed make sense. However, I would prefer new games about to start to use a version of the mod which I feel is as good as I can currently make it. It would be very frustrating to have a number of games report back and say "the Zmey is useless" (as it probably was in the first version) or "Treants can easily be screwed over by immobile opponents" when I have already realised this and have the solution.

The only real pure balance changes in this version are -5 to attack to the Shishi (I guess Zeldor won't like this, and NooBliss will think it's too little). I thought about it carefully though. The other changes are either thematic, following additional consideration, or to do with limiting magic diversification.

As Valerius points out in his insightful post (#236), it is sort of an anomaly that it is not easy, given powerful air or fire magic (or astral), to summon new casters in those paths. With A3 the Roc would "correct" this. However I actually really don't want to change this more than necessary - I think it is good and very interesting that the paths vary in how easy it is to get into them. In fact in general I don't really want to encourage diversification, although I can't help doing so a little. I've therefore reduced the Roc's magic to A2. This is quite a nasty nerf for the Roc, and so I've given him some stat boosts to try to help. Similar thinking has led me to change the magic paths on the Kraken considerably (why should water nations gain access to all sorcery paths?).

This version could be considered a "release candidate" for a long-term version of the mod ("v1.1"). If anyone points out any glaring mistakes in the near future I reserve the right to make some fixes, but otherwise I plan to keep the mod the same for some time. This will give time for comments for MP games to accumulate and offer further insight, so that over a rather long time frame there may be another version ("v1.2"). Anyway, basically this version should be fit for MP use and if you start learning about the units as they stand, they're not expected to change much in future.

Since the last version there have been lots of *really* helpful and insightful comments, all of which I have read several times over. Thanks very much everyone for those.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

If I want a kraken, I need to start underwater. For a troll king, I don't. Troll kings are more varied than grendelkins, come earlier, generate gems, come with a retinue. After testing, I see no reason to waste gems on grendelkins. I've had more success with a bane lord than with a grendelkin. Grendelkins seem to be made for a niche that I have no use for. After losing my second kitted grendelkin, I'm going for a sea troll. I know that he can reduce the same oppo to pulp with his retinue, i.e. for less gems overall.
Now if I don't want to fight underwater, would I pick a grendelkin? Maybe. But given the paths I chose in my game, I'd already have tartarians in that game if I hadn't tried to go with this beast. So now, should I want a land SC, I'll still research tarts as it's much more efficient and powerful, and not actually longer to research. It'll also free water gems for boots of speed, frost brands, water breathing trinkets and cold resistance items.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Llama, the Roc is useless at A2. I certainly won't use them. At A3 they were actually useful.

I'm pro-diversification - because otherwise everyone needs to summon tarts for magic diversity. I'm also anti-'the best summonable caster with this path is summoned via a different path'. Making Rocs A2 just removed any real reason to possibly summon them.

Basically, this is a very bad change. I will not update to the most recent release, and will continue to host games with the old one.

(Edit: I also hate to see whiners win. There was zero evidence Rocs were overpowered at A3. And unless it received godly stats (ballpark MR22 Att 20 Def 20 Str30 to make up for lack of full slots) it'll never be worth summoning without useful magical might.)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Hmm... I don't think I will ever summon A2 Roc. I'd rather forge gate cleaver if I want forge bonus. For patrol it's too expensive [and I can use Male Shishi]. If I want smth that can trapeze well, I have Shishis. If I want spellcaster, I have Asynja. I see absolutely no use for Roc now.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Squirrel, I agree that there is some danger that the Roc will be of little use at A2. Or rather, I expect he will be pretty niche. However I don't feel it's within the scope of the mod to significantly change the paths to gaining access to magic paths - that's the only reason for the change. Nothing to do with it being OP.

It's slightly frustrating, because if I had managed to think properly about path access before making the first versions, the Roc would have been A2 from the start (it's nothing to do with whiners) and probably no-one would have suggested it be A3.

Now I realise you disagree with me about path access, that's fine. You are genuinely more than welcome to integrate a version of the EDM into your squirrel balance mod, and make the roc A3 there.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Llama, while I repsect your decision, I'm curious as to why you feel the Roc "opens up air". Afterall, it takes A4 to summon in the first place. What am I missing?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I'm just utterly failing to understand the proposed niche for the Kraken. It doesn't do anything for the Water nations, who already had enough power to crush a non-underwater nation going for them in the oceans. And it's aquatic, which means the land nation needs to already have a way to take water provinces and hold them for a few turns...and if you can do that, why on earth do you need a Kraken?

Aethyr, it's that if you have a pretender with A4(a good breakpoint anyways) you can suddenly have other high air casters, where that wasn't possible before. It allows you to project air buffs in multiple places(and without endangering your pretender!) which flatly wasn't possible before.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I do think the Roc has a very useful and viable niche even with the air magic reduction... they have a lot to offer as support units. I do wish they'd kept the A3 though :P Perhaps a cost reduction might be in order now?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

See，Llama hold the same opinion that new path should not be accessed too easy if the game itself doesn't provide so:D Some would say tartarians, but D itself is very hard to access, if you don't have D on national mage or pretender, then the only hope is 10% chance on trible shaman plus some high N or S booster......

I like the change on kraken, it is no longer such a great way to access astral or death that many land nation would like to get an underwater province for it. But it is still a powerful thug, with summon water power, water shield and iron skin, iron will plus some misc item, it will have 20 protection, 21 defence,17*10 attack and 22 mr, with 180 hp. It does not immune to its own poison ink, though. Maybe the only real problem is enchanment 7 would be a little too late....

Roc became a little useless, since we can summon 2 A2 shishi with 30 gems, 15 for each, why summon one A2 roc with 25 Gem? If roc is cheaper than shishi(18 gems maybe,shishis are currently too cheap, 15 gems for a A2 thug...), those nation with only pretender access to A will gladly summon a lot of rocs.

I still insist that asynja is a little too good: with A2, stealth and glamour, she is an excellent SC, raider and sc hunter, yet she has a quite some chance for A4, B2, D2 or E2, capable to take the role as ritual mage or Battlefield enchantment caster, and she only cost you 35 gems, then why would I spend A gems on anything else? So I think increase her cost a little and reduce random pick into one would be better......

Cyclops should be an excellent SC, but 30 gems for E3 mage is also a bargain, so why not change his path into E2F2, so he can still cast many self buff spell plus phoenix pyre but no longer battle enchantment？

Btw，why not add "alive" version of tartarian cyclops into this spell? It can be randomly choose one from E2F2 granite cyclops, E3 smith cyclops or E2A2 lightning cyclops:re:

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Make Roc A2 + 25%A if A2 and A3 both create problems :) That way getting A3 caster will cost lots of gems.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Ok, air is already easy to get access: Faerie Queen or Tarts will easily get you A3 casters, if not the occasional A4.

Tarts are pretty trivial to get. You can get there off D1 on your pretender no problem. Its not even hard. Everyone who doesn't get D nationally wants a little death on their pretender anyway.

(d1 + 2 rings -> d3 -> mound king +2 rings -> D5 -> demilich + 2 rings + 1 other booster -> D7. Substitute skullface/skull staff as you get the D to make them to free your rings up for other duties).

If the idea is to provide alternatives to tarts, one of the things the mod must do is make diversification possible without relying on tarts.

And I maintain a Roc will never be worth summoning at *any* price if its only A2. It has absolutely no role to fill. A3 at least makes it a serious air caster. It will never be a good thug without full slots or insane stats. And there's basically nothing worth casting at A2.

Heck, even with A3 the faerie queen is still better because she has hands (for forging more air boosters). The Roc was pretty marginal with A3, imo, at A2 I wouldn't spend 10a on it. Maybe 5, its probably about as useful as Call of the Winds... (And much harder to summon)

But llama, you're dead wrong on diversification, because diversification is already easy. It just requires death/tarts.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Faerie Queen cost 40N, 40! and N gems are very important if you want spam tarts, gift of reason and gift of health will consume tons of N gems.

Is that really "trivial"? If some one start with high bless strategy like W9F9 mictlan or such, he won't have enough point for another new path. In fact, I have rely on wolf tribe shaman to access death for many times.

And yes, with D1, it is possible to get to D7, assume you have enough gems: 30S for ring of sorcery(require const6), 7D for staff, 28D for mound fiend(NOT MOUND　KING!)(require conj7), 30D for demilich(require enchantment8!),and 48S for ring of wizardry or 18D for skullface. Without national D or S mage, how can a nation like eriu or man(or even ma
agartha with D1 but no S)search out enough gems to climb this "tart tree" easily? If you don't have enough N gems or fail to obtain grail or GoH, then D7 is only the beginning of the most annoying part.

I agree with this, alternative diversification method would be nice, but so long it seems llama's intention on this mod is to provide multiple SC other than tarts. Path diversifications are much harder to balance than SC, for "from which path can get which path" is quite a hard decision due to different national recruitable mage diversity.

Is that a joke? One D1 zombie stats revenant cost you 9d! In fact, if a A2 roc only cost 5a, one tenth of a air queen, then you may expect to meet a non air nation(with A4 pretender)bring 10 or more roc to spam thunder strike with pretender cast storm, at the beginning of third year, or much earlier if find plenty A site at the early game. Abysia crush their enemy with thunder strike? That can be quite a surprise since no one would expect or react on such strategy:D

As I said, tarts strategy require tons of death, nature and astral gems along with high path(especially astral), that is why llama made this mod, to let nation without death nolonger necessary to follow death nation painfully.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

IMO even with more hp and def boost, the new Rocs are still overshadowed by shishi as raiders and anti-thugs. Basically I can't find any way to use them effectively. How about give them #onebattlespell "Storm"? It's very thematic and will make them actually different from other endgame summons.

Another choose is giving them Wrathful Skies and moving the spell to conj8, I personally perfer it to previous one because it's very cool for such an splendid creature:)

Edit: Ninjaed by Sajuuk.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I think you are confusing the Roc with the Thunderbird.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Actually I liked Dimaz's suggestion.

Squirrel, the roc is easily worth more than 5A :P Even if for NO other reason, wall shakers require a3, and give 15 less siege bonus than the current roc. Sure, that's a bit less with a hammer, but it would still be over 20A for the same amount of siege bonus. And wall shakers don't have nearly the mobility or in battle utility that a roc does. I would much rather use a roc for sieging than a gate cleaver or a wall shaker, because it is less expensive for the amount of siege bonus it supplies.

We really shouldn't be comparing Rocs to Tartarians anyway... Rocs are a conj 6 summon, they clearly are not supposed to be equivalent. It's the Asynja that need to be compared to them, and personally I don't think Asynja are really tartarian level.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Rdonj: I'm comparing Rocs to Tarts for diversification purposes, because llamabeast brought up diversification. Even at A3, Rocs are still inferior to tarts for diversification for 2 reasons: Rocs require a powerful mage in air to cast (tarts diversify into everything for just a d caster), and they require either starting with A3-4 to cast or summoning a faerie queen to just get started summoning them (or already have tarts). Note that Air is one of the least valuable paths to put on a pretender, whereas death is one of the most commonly splashed pretender paths (and you only need *d1* for tarts, a substantial saving. So for most non-air nations, Rocs aren't even going to be an option until Conj 8 anyway.

Line by line response to Sajuuk coming.

Edit:Rdonj, just how much wall breaking does a roc provide? Because 2 gate cleavers are clearly cheaper since you'll have a hammer for them.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

If you don't need to spam tarts, you won't be burning all those N on them now will you? Since teh goal of the mod is to provide alternatives to tarts, we should start thinking about people actually not using tarts (I know, a strange state of affairs).

That said, Faerie Queens are well-worth the 40n even in a tart world (depending on relative n and d gem income), and have guaranteed access to A3. For all the Roc's vaunted ability to diversify into air with A3, most non-air nations are going to need tarts or faerie queens to even start summoning them. Air is a very low value path for a pretender, and A4 is a significant expense.

I should also note I think tarts are too cheap and GoR is too expensive. But i don't think that's even relevant to this discussion.

Sorry, mound fiend, you knew what I was talking about.

Yes, easy. Heck, you don't even need the lich (although liches are pretty nice), mound fiend + 2 rings + skull face + skullstaff = d7. Or Kokythiad + same. So you can run this off pure construction/conjuration.

You're going to make the rings anyway. You're probably going to make the death boosters anyway. So those aren't actually costs. They just end up getting used here. (this is why i recommend the lich, so you can swap out a ring).

You could also get the rod of +3D, which makes things much easier. And if you're seriously planning on tarts, you're already planning on winning the race to artifacts for the chalice.

Regardless, you have to treat tarts as if the person summoning them has either the Chalice or GoH for balance purposes, because someone will have those, and that's what the person trying to use not tarts is going to be competing against.

But it is perfectly plausible just to spam out tarts and GoR the ones who aren't feebleminded.

You can't provide real alternatives to tarts unless you solve for both diversification and SC capability. Its really impossible to treat tarts as just one or the other. By separating the alternative SCs from the alternative summoned mage chasses its already introduced more balanced options. It should stick with that, not backpeddle on summonable mages.

How often have you seen someone actually use revenants anyway. Spells that rarely if ever get used are not a good metric for balance. I have seen precisely 0 revenants in MP play. Clearly a powerhouse option... :rolleyes:

A4 pretender, lol. When's the last time you saw that from a non-air nation? 10 rocs is what, 250 air gems? Non-air nation? Year 3? lol.

Not to mention Conj 6 early enough to summon 10 rocs with 1 caster is actually rather hard to do. Most nations would be struggling to have it by middle of year 2. Why don't you try actually doing these things - what you propose is clearly impossible.

Besides, any nation should see the Roc build-up through scouting and prepare against it. If they don't, they deserve to lose.

S3+ on a pretender is pretty standard for nations without native astral access. Every nation absolutely needs to have a plan for getting a RoS and a RoW. Its an essential part of planning for the endgame. Pretending nations won't have rings is just self-deception.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Squirrel - he meant at 5 gems a piece.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I might be prone to slight exaggeration.

I dunno, Rocs felt like they were supposed to be more than mobile wall breakers. I suppose at 15-18a I *might* summon them for that. The thing about wall shakers is they also cast panic - something that you can use to make indie commanders more useful. So I'd probably rate a Roc about the same.

For conj6 and A4 it seems pretty weak though.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

For the first part(sorry I'm too lazy to quote:D),I agree that faerie queens are very important, but should not compare with roc, faerie queens are aimed to help those without air to access air, roc cannot compete in this field. Gor too expensive? Yes, 20N(or 15N) seems too expensive, especially for those with grail or goh and trying to gor every possible tarts. Tarts too cheap? Yes, for those with grail or goh, almost every tart can be very very useful. So we can see, only for those nation with goh or grail(maximum 2 if not exchange grail between allies), tarts are too cheap, if you have to summon half dozen before get a usable tart, 10D(or 12D)are not very cheap. Seems reduce or remove the undead healing effect can best weaken tarts, but anyway, llama use this mod to give another answer.

For the second part, yes, their is no argument on what you said, but still this can be a great problem for those nation without high D or S, like Agartha. As for "aiming GOH or grail" part, I'm afraid there might be too many nation aiming for them, you can't expect to be the luckest one. And again, for those trying to spam out tarts and pick out who is not feebleminded, tarts are not really expensive.

For the third part, are you suggesting to give every or most path their version of tarts? Tarts are great, but they have many obstacle, if not give other summon that provide both sc
and diversity with same degree of obstacle, they will ruin the game. So I personally prefer to seperate the SC's role and diversity mage's role, and finish them in turn.

Forth part, well, I use revenant just to show the "cheapest mage" in the game. A4 pretender? Is that really so rare? They might be pretty useful for sauromatia or kailisa in early games. But I mention A4 because the "10 rocs" part. Yes, it is madness to try to get 10 rocs in current version, and I totally agree that in current version roc sucks. It is your "5A for a roc" make this strategy possible, including the A4 pretender. In my opinion, 15-18A for an A2 roc would be acceptable, or 20A for + 25%A suggested by Dimaz. A2 mage can't be "that" cheap, not to mention roc's hp, siege and patrol bonus.

The last part, I personally will never give my pretender less than S4 if have to give him S. If I cannot afford this price, then I'd try my luck on site mage, or even neighbor's luck:D

Anyway, for those nation can't construct RoS or RoW, I'd try to buy one, or try to rely on Djinn, and either way, it will be a great pain to have the ring(and the gems spend on them) ended up on tarts summoning. It's not "impossible", it's just not so "trivial".


Edit: Squirrelloid, seem we give the Roc exactly the same evaluation
:D

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I agree with Squirrelloid - you should learn more about Dominions and multiplayer :)

Right now EVERYONE that wants to win a game pretty much needs tarts. Both as SCs and spellcasters. You lost the race to Chalice? You can get GoH. This makes 2 nations with healthy tarts. You can't get that too? You wish for Chalice. You can't? Well, you are probably going to lose the game anyway, if you are losing in every category. Or try to borrow it.

And yes, the goal is to give pretty much every path alternative to tarts. So every nation can play differently. Right know EVERYONE must have death. There is still same problem with S [and I hope mind hunts get more expensive].

Roc is more fragile than Gate Cleaver on good guy. And gate cleaver is really good weapon to carry.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Can't say I've noticed ;)

A2 can still cast confusion, thunder ward, gift of flight, false fetters, thunderstrike, shockwave, wind guide, arrow fend, or summon air elementals at a2. Yes, you need an a4 to start, but it'll help tide you over until you can summon Asynjas having an air caster available relatively early in the game. Of course Asynja don't even have guaranteed A3 either. Anyway, many of those spells seem a lot more useful to me than the ability to cast panic. Granted, shishi can also cast all of the same spells, and are cheaper, as well as being better thugs... I would rather have shishis myself, but a Roc seems a much better deal than wall shakers to me.


Edit: Zeldor - I hate gate cleavers, they take earth and earth is much too necessary for other forging when you would consider summoning rocs.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Lots to say, but just time for a brief comment.

Firstly, I agree that Rocs as they stand have become overpriced. Perhaps 18 gems. Also I am inclined to bring Krakens down one research level.

No one seems to have commented on the fact that Rocs can be brought up to A4 with two air boosters. Obviously this is expensive, but it is still a way of using an A4 pretender to gain a new Fog Warriors caster, without waiting for Asynjas. Shishis can't do this (no head slot).

In the same way as the suggestion of giving a Roc A2 + 25%A basically makes the A3 more expensive, you could also imagine that you have a choice: either get an A2 Roc for, say, 18 gems, or get an A3 Roc (Roc + Bag of Winds / Winged Helmet) for 35 gems. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Of course a Roc with a single booster (or a Shishi with a booster) could cast Fog Warriors after waiting to cast Summon Storm Power. Said 35 gem Roc is then an astonishingly mobile support caster - with mapmove 5, flying and the ability to cloud trapeze it's probably the most mobile caster in the game. I'm sure it could be pretty handy.

So I have already opened up Air considerably, by including summonable A2 mages. I guess there's no way round that really.

I am a bit disinclined to go for the 25% A3 option as some people have commented that they find randoms on summons a bit annoying / hard to remember. I still have some (most notably the Asynja and the Treant), but I have tried to cut down on them a bit.

One final comment is that I see the Roc being a bit of a niche summon. I can't really see a way around that, and I don't really mind. It's good to include a few obviously good summons (Ember Lords, Grendelkin probably), as well as some more niche ones (Roc, Firebird most obviously).

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

hooray, hail to llama! Treant will be more powerful with N2E1 or N2W1, rooted for N3E2 or N3W2, they can buff themselves with some very useful spells. High N access? Leave it to tree lords:D

But why not give treant Encumbrance 0? For all other flora creature, treelord, vineman or ivy king, they all have Encumbrance 0.....


To Zeldor: You don't get me, I never say it's unnecessary to get tarts, just "some nation have innate disadvantage in getting tarts", either because they need double bless or because they need sc pretender for early survive. Also, with only pretender have s or d or n path, gem income can be a terrible disadvantage, not to mention how "random" whether you can get grail. Yes, tarts are essential for victory, but not fair to every nation, and I just don't like to choose a nation just because it is much easier to win.

By the way, I have played multiplayer for almost three years, not very long, but not a newbie, either, though because of my strange interest in weak nations like ea/ma atlantis or agartha, I only win once, which I didn't use weak nation:doh:

But I have to add a annotation that, though I did wish grail later, I didn't depend on tart to access to new path or multiple SC—— much harder, but possible.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Sajuuk: A4 pretenders? Pretty rare. Kailasa *might* use one (although I wouldnt). Air is a crappy bless. I would hazard a guess that A9 is more common than A4, because some nations can do cute things with the shock resistance. (MA Mictlan comes to mind).

And the point sort of is to make it unnecessary to get tarts.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Sajuuk:

See, that's why you rearely win :) Nations are not balanced. And all must get to tarts pretty much in normal games. Idea behind this mod is to give weaker and non-D non-S nations better fighting chances. And to make it not necessary to rush for tarts and build whole strategies around them. I had over 100 tarts in two of my games. I am sick of that. But I like winning, so I will summon them again, if I have to.

Squirrelloid:

I think that A4 is not so bad thing. It's another thing that pretty much every nation should get. Air boosters, Staff of Storms is quite crucial for some. Of course it's behind getting tarts, good bless, S access...

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I agree A4 has some decent stuff. But its so far down the priority list... I generally opt for nature access and summoning a faerie queen, or just winning the tart lottery (A3 is enough to get started with a RoS).

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Zeldor：

Everyone like to win, including me:D I just don't like to win through spam something, should it be tarts or gem generator like clam or blood stone, and that's why I love the possibility given by this mod. But it might still lead to spam, just change from spam one thing to many things, and I still can't win. Well, then so be it, the pleasure of winning is no match to the pain it takes:hurt:

Squirrelloid:

A4 is not a universal choice for pretender, just for some specified purpose, such as "there's A2 mage only cost 5A", or maybe you know that you are going to fight plenty of air nation or archery nation early in the game, maybe plus you can tolerate the points from A3 to A4. 20% air shield are almost totally useless, though.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Sajuuk: Most pretenders won't have air at all. Its a bad path for a pretender. Those pretenders who do have air will generally have just enough for SCing (A2 for mistform) or will be a bless chassis with A9 for some specialized use.

The only time I could see taking A4 on a pretender is if you had an air nation that didn't get native A4 casters with any regularity. I honestly can't name one off the top of my head...

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Pythium and Midgard are probably the best examples.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

MA Mictlan maybe......

Anyway, as I said, A4 on pretender is only a very specified strategy, when I suggest of A4 pretender, it is based on a hypothesis that Roc only cost 5A, and since it will never be so cheap, there's no need to explore the suggestion's further utility:D

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

MA Man is another.

Even in those cases it's often better to use Astral on the pretender and use rings to bootstrap Air boosters. Assuming you have A3.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Seems MA Mictlan is the only "air" nation that nomally could only get A2 (and S3 without E so no crystal coin) so have to rely on pretender for air booster and rings

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

And MA Mictlan is one of those few nations at all likely to take A9. Possibly also taking S9 and something offensive (F9, B8, something). Of course, it can just trade for a coin, opening up something like F9A9W9 or A9W9B8, but they don't have as good a chassis for those.

(MA Mictlan can do shockwave spam with a high priest and Eagle Warrior bodyguards, the SR from A9 comes in handy in such cases.)

Of course, they can avoid A9 and go with something more typical, like F9W9S9. (I believe they have a 1/40 chance at A3 on a High Priest of the Sky. Alternately, they can pound construction, snag the Tome of High Power, and get to air boosters off that and a RoW.)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I assume Firebird's luck effect is taken from lady of fortune? I wonder if it stacks, i.e. 3-4 firebird in a province to really ramp up the luck there. Of course this is not exactly a good idea when you have many provinces ...

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

firebird is unique, iirc

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Oooo fine (Didn't know that)! Then how about Lady of fortune + firebird?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

They stack.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Firebird in unique, yes. There can be only one.

Damn good summons though.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Actually, a pity. This makes it just like Elemental Royalty in being the price for the first player reaching needed research instead of a unit usable instead of Tartarians...
:(

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

If you made elemental royalty non-unique, would it just randomly select one every time you summoned one?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I'm fairly certain the summon elemental royalty spells check to see if the unit ID exists in the game, so clearing all the stats on the units in question to remove the #unique tag doesn't help.

But you could use #firstshape to get around this by having the summoned royalty transform to another shape, thus freeing up the original unit ID for further summoning.

See this post by Sombre for more info.

Tested it and it works fine. The only thing I'm unsure of is if there are more attempts in a turn to summon a given type of elemental royalty than exist in the game if some will be told that no one answered the spell (because #firstshape hasn't yet been triggered). So more than two attempts to summon a fire king, more than three attempts to summon an air queen, etc.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

It's a good thing firebird isn't all that hot (harhar...har...) considering the cost and compared to other late-game summons and options. I'd take a Zmey or save the gems for crafting any day of the week over a firebird. Though maybe that's because I don't know the full power of a firebird?

So far I only see it as a weak/mobile fire mage, admittedly useful if you have no national access to fire. The luck effect seems useless since it's only applied to the province it's in, considering that you probably have 10+ provinces by the time you can summon it this effect can be dismissed.

What I'm unsure of is that its description seem to imply it auto-cast solar brillance in battle, though I'm not seeing this on the wiki (I should test this...), if so this would be a different matter. Maybe it can even pierce Mandeha's anti-solar darkness effect like forbidden light does hmmmm...

Finally, if its luck effect actually affects crossbreed/ transformation/ void gate summon like luck scales does, I'd be racing for this hot, sexy bird! :D

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Yes, it does auto-cast solar brillance in battle.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Never tried one in battle. They're kind of fragile. I guess if I had an extreme need for auto solar brilliance.

I was commenting on the luck effect. It's quite nice getting a lucky event at I believe a 50% or so rate (at least that's the frequency I was getting them at). I just sat mine in my cap. Nothing bad ever happened there, and every other turn or so a good event.

If it were expensive or hard to research, then no, it probably wouldn't be worth it. But it is cheap and easy to get to (if someone else doesn't get to it first).

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

It's also fire summon, so it's another bonus for fire-bless nation or national fire mage nations, while being difficult for other nations (I get 1-2 fire at most with rainbow, for rune smasher / awe shield and flame brand usually). Though even if someone else summons it first, casting Zmey with those gems instead is not a bad alternative at all.

I've summoned the firebird before and rarely had events in my cap where the bird is sitting so maybe I underestimated its luck ability abit.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Yeah, I was Abysia in our first EDM test game, InversionsRedux, so it was a no brainer to try out. I had it for a long time, and I did even move it a few times, to see if the luck events followed it, and they did.

For a non-fire nation, might be more of a stretch to go for it. It is even easier to get with this new version now though. I'm starting a new EDM test with the latest version of the mod later this week, so I'll probably be able to test it again.

The Zmey was simply horrible in the first incarnation of the mod, but it looks a lot better now, and I'm anxious to try the new and improved Zmey.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Interesting, I will have to test firebird more as it sounds like It was more bad luck (lol) on my part resulting in meager luck events.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Okay, I have just uploaded v1.1. There are just a few changes - see the first post for details.

I anticipate this being a long-term version of the mod. Further changes will only be made in response to considerable feedback from MP, and quite conservatively. This is to make it possible for people to form strategies with the summons without having to worry about them constantly altering. Having said that I still *really* appreciate feedback. Apart from anything else, as you may imagine probably the most fun part of making a mod is seeing people discuss your creations! :)

There is of course the chance that I may have to make another version sooner to fix bugs, typos or glaring errors - I am just hoping that most of those will have been caught already.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

I am curious, when you say it is thematic for Kraken to have blood magic, what did you have in mind?

I mean, what does kraken have to do with virgins?