Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

This comment is based on bbz's post in the main forum.

Sidhe Lords in EA and MA are different units and in MA they have the same golden lance that Ri/Tuatha use and to which false fetters was added. I'm not sure if recruit everywhere units having this weapon was intended?

In any case, I think it would be good to remove the AOE 1 and make the effect be on hit as was done with the vine whip. I'm just not a big fan of things that autohit - the opponent should have a chance to avoid it.

In the above thread bbz also wondered about the price of sidhe warriors. I use them for thematic reasons but they aren't really worth 35 gold. You could safely price them at 30 but really I'd just go with 25 since they're cap only.

In the same thread Shangrila00 also mentioned making the hoof attack on the mounted commanders the warhorse hoof attack, which I think is also a nice idea.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Not sure what your talking about, since vanilla growth is 2%/.2%, CBM growth is flat out superior at the moment.

Adjusting growth from it's current point gives you a range of options, depending on what you want to achieve, for example.

Drop to 1%/.3%, income inferior to current CBM breaks even with vanilla growth around turn 23.
Change to 0%/.35%, income breaks even with vanilla around turn 29 and current CBM about turn 73.
Change to 0%/.4%, income breaks even with vanilla around turn 23 and current CBM about turn 40.

I also think the current production/sloth needs to be toned down to +-3% income, sloth is almost unpickable at the moment.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

My mistake. Too used to the older and less controversial CBMs. Certainly, if the latest CBM supposedly makes scales too good, while earlier ones didn't, it needs to be compared with earlier CBMs.

And no, I still disagree. Production should not be a dump stat, and neither should growth, which is the whole point of the CBM changes in the first place. Having resource cheap, yet effective units is an advantage, but it should not be worth hundreds of points, and neither should having good, non-old mages. Some nations, Mictlan, Ry'leh, etc still pick sloth 3 and are not even close to being underpowered. For other nations to have to think before choosing sloth is a good thing. I mean, really? Sloth is unpickable? I guess nobody ever picked a temperature preference other than their prefered, since that's so much worse?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Yeah, temperature hurts, but it's still the first thing I dump... sloth is hardly unpickable now, it's still easier to take than losing order is in many cases. You just are going to think hard before going sloth 3 now. Having to think is the entire point.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

And your wrong again, because of the way summer and winter work, a 0 preference nation that takes temperature 0 still loses between 1.5% and 3% average income per turn; higher dominion scores lose less.

Again, due to summer and winter, a 0 preference nation _actually_ loses between 12% and 13.5% average income per turn when they pick Heat or Cold 3; higher dominion scores lose more.

This makes the real income loss suffered between 9% and 12% for taking a temperature scale at 3.

So, in all cases other than dom 10, which is about equal, in the current CBM, picking sloth 3 is a worse hit to your income than taking a temperature 3 pick.

So yes, sloth is almost unpickable in CBM at the moment, and this is seriously hurting the low resource nations, since they still have to deal with the down side of being low resource, no decent armoured troops.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

As per kianduatha's point earlier I think it may be more of an issue in the opposite direction - turmoil/production/luck to get the benefits of luck but also have prod offset most of the income hit form turmoil (and the bonus to resources is nice because you can ramp up your forces quickly when needed). Kianduatha also mentioned growth in that comment, but I think even without growth this should work out favorably.

It's not really a big deal to me and the changes have certainly altered my approach to designing pretenders but it would be worth assessing the effects. My gut instinct is that it might be best to have a three point difference between prod and order (whether it's 4 and 7 or 3 and 6).


Well neither is Niefel and they get 120 free points from cold 3. ;)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I know this one's going to cause a rukus. :angel

It's becoming more and more obvious to me that the biggest problem with making dwarven hammers unique is that the first person to research construction 8 gets both unique hammers and a much bigger advantage than in vanilla; where it was already a huge advantage.

Is it possible to move the Hammer of the Forge Lord to construction 10?

That way, as I understand it, it could be wished for but not forged.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Nightfall,

yeah, every nation has access to the paths for the hammer of the forge lords. And getting 50%/25% reduction on two items each turn isn't that great. (Sure it helps getting the artifacts).

There is already a wishable only hammer:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Hammer_of_the_Cyclops

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

So I guess people never, ever take non-prefered, and nonextreme temp scales, right? Even extreme temp with its corresponding encumbrance issue is so close as to be no difference, yet somehow you think it's a crushing argument for sloth being unpickable, despite temp being picked all the time.

And I'm sorry, you don't get to turn an advantage on its head like that. Having decent low resource troops is an advantage. Some of them also have decent armored troops, which they can choose not to use to maximize that advantage. Again, needing to think before deciding is a good thing. Mictlan doesn't need to think, since its armored troops are crap. I'm trying to see the downside there, but it's just not hitting me.

It doesn't, unless you 1)take a very high dom, and 2) don't take turmoil beyond 1. Unlike Order which gain you most of its benefits just on your cap, luck only works out if it's everywhere, besides the chance at heros. And you can't offset more than turmoil 1 with production because of all the awful poploss events opened up by turmoil 2. Unless you can fortuneteller all your high pop provinces at low cost, which would be a national advantage.

High turmoil is a still a viable build of course, more so than it was before, for nations with low gold requirements, but there's no sense in pretending it's viable with the boosted production for gold hungry nations. Certainly, Pan still has to think long and hard before taking turmoil.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

This is very nice feedback, but it seems rather abstract. Could you tell us which nations in specific you are thinking of?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I was able to cast "Awaken Kelp Ancient" from a land province to a land province (the spell description says it can only be cast from a land province to a water province). The next turn I got the message that the Kelp Ancient has drowned. Is this a bug or WAD?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I would assume WAD. As the spell clearly states that it doesn't work on land.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I know that already, and the Hammer of the Forge Lords is worth 20-30 gems a turn.

The dwarven hammer is worth another 10-15.

30-45 bonus gems a turn is HUGE when the only other way to generate gems is globals.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

What in the world are you forging? 2 Rings of Wizardry every single turn? Or just every single artifact without any concern for whether or not you could actually use it as a part of your strategy? Once you have all the artifacts, what then? 2 Standards of the Damned a turn? That saves you 20 gems per turn from both artifacts combined, but it'll suck to be you when you run into someone fielding lifeless things.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Yes, it does state that but usually the game prevents you from even casting the spell in most of those cases. That's why I wanted to double-check.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

iirc that isn't moddable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

golden naga needs the swamp survival tag (and maybe also amphibious like other nagas)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Not a balance issue, but i'd like to see a special spell or two added to LA Ctis. "Keepers of the Tombs" have flavor text that they light banefires in braziers in the tombs, but none of the can cast banefire. So how about letting them use some banefire by giving Ctis a special version of firebolt (and/or fireball) that has some area decay? Call it "banefire bolt", make it f1d1, keep damage the same, but add AOE1 decay. That wouldnt be overpowered, would it? I think it would be cool and thematic, like the "Cursed Shards" spell given to Manchaka.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Wait, when is the golden naga even used? iirc it's an unused pretender chassis from dom2 and doesn't appear unless you wish for it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Currently it serves as a hero for LA Patala. A fitting purpose as I'm not sure Patala even have any heroes in Vanilla.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I got it in an MP game. The flavor text says its from the 'swamps of patala' (i thought they were jungle but oh well) and all other nagas have swamp survival and amphibious but this one has neither.

also- give the monkey casters stealth (even poor stealth) to make up for their morale and tactical movement.

(poor monkeys- can't run away from stampeding c'tis undead chariots- what a blood bath- RIP gorus- you really should have uncrossed your legs to make your get-away)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well Ashdod is completely unplayable in this mod. Please don't destroy any more nations.

k thnks

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Is that because of the 1 enc increase on their sacreds?

kthxbai

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

No, it's just you can't play them in no-brainer fashion like you want to anymore. As being able to get fatigue neutral SC giants from turn 1 is not a good gameplay feature in any way. Ashdod and their SC giants are just as good as always, it's just that now you are pretty much forced to forge at least some light gear for them before they can be sent to trash armies. And that is a bad change why exactly?


And in general, how about learning how to play the game properly before offering criticism. As you only ever play SC nations with EN blesses, and you are always useless at it. So you know nothing about the wider aspects of the game, and even the style of play you use religiously, you're completely hopeless at. So maybe it's good for you overall if you are forced into playing nations another way. As then there may actually be some hope of you realising how the game is really played, because right now you are clueless/


Oh wait I forgot, you only ever get beaten because people gang you, as your own poor play in every game is never the problem. How absent minded of me.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Can we at least make Anakite armor encumbrance 2 instead of 3? As it is, it's the worst heavy armor in the game, even worse than the heavy samurai armor which is protection 17. At Encumbrance 2, Anakites still can't be made fatigue neutral, and you don't have to explain why armor enchanted by the descendants of angels is worse than purely mundane armor. I mean, Jomon equips all their samurai with mundane armor strictly better than the stuff Rephaite kings get.

I don't play Ashdod, and I'm mentioning this because of Gath's Seren. Nobody ever buys them, and CBM has lowered their price, so clearly the problem is known. Except the only reason anyone would buy them over a Kohen Gadol is that they come equipped. The Anakite armor renders that moot, since it's so terrible that Serens still need replacement armor. They also really need a point of holy so they can self bless, then people might actually consider buying them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

You can't forge gear for them when you get wiped out by turn 20.

And the rest of what you are saying is just personal attacks, so I'll just put you on my ignore list

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

no you increased it by 2, one in an earlier mod, and one here.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

It's true though; Anakite armor can definitely be dropped at least to 2 encumbrance without breaking anything. Might as well, no need to be vindictive against the poor bastards. And Zamzummites need at least part of their second (E/D only) random back, even if it's just 25 or 50%. That would give them some legitimate non-thug options, really. That change has always bugged me because it just drives people to play Ashdod more one-dimensionally.

As an alternate for Gath...if anyone could use a boost via obtaining a revenue, Seren are pretty high on the list. Their whole schtick is that they lead the Gittites in battle--so why not let them come with a few giants?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Oh yeah, agree on the Zamzummites. Death battlemagic is heavily dependent on common D3s. With only 1/4 having D3, that completely changes their role, which is unthematic, as is completely eliminating the chance at D4. Surely, price hike, old age, making the second random 50% chance at D instead of 100% at E/D, or some combination would be better than giving Ashdod yet another recruitable thug that can't do anything except thug.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I feel like Ashdod got overnerfed, too. The problem is twofold.

1. Ashdod was too strong and they beaten by the nerf-stick too hard
2. People STILL gang on up Ashdod or rush them, because they still feel like Ashdod can only be stopped early game. This is wrong, because in everyones mind ashdod is still as strong as ever, when it actually isnt.

Since we cant alter the consciousness of the community, at least parts of 1. (nerfstick) should be reversed.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well, I still don't like Ashdod in a game. I don't have a problem with their base troops or mages or sacreds but I do object to Adons.

I wouldn't mind playing against Ashdod if they lost Adons. For that matter, I don't think Ashdod can ever be balanced.
IMO, they are the best recruitable unit in the game and quite overpowered. They are much better than both Neif and Fomorian giants for many reasons.

-They have better base paths for gear (as a nation). E/F/S are the most common forging paths. The Jarl have a problem with MR and they have no good buff spells like Adons. Kings have better buffs but still not as good as Adons on the count of diversity, and they also have a MR problem and protection too.
-There is more diversity on Adons than Jarls and Kings, (F/S/E). Phoenix Pyre Adon, Teleporting/Lucky/Ethereal/Astral Shield/High MR Adon, and a Tank like earth Invonerable/High MR/Reinvigorating Adon.
And than there is the extra misc slot. And that additional misc slot is not a minor thing as it opens up quite a few more options. Luck Pendant/AMA/Girdle/Braces of Protection/Burning Pearl depending on which Adon you get. And if you really want to get crazy communion the Adons or forge the communions and cast a dozen buffs and make them literally unstoppable.

So, IMO, other than removing Adons Ashdod will never be balanced.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

The thing that amuses me about Hinnom/Ashdod are the small touches. Like the three misc slots on Adons you mentioned. And unlike most units where getting an extra slot of one type means you lack another type, Adons just get the extra one. Or Hinnom having recruitable healers - because they wouldn't be playable without having Arco-style risk free mindhunts on their recruit everywhere S2s. ;)

Having said that, reducing anakite armor to enc. 2 seems reasonable since it's mainly a troop buff. Presumably you'll put better, lower enc., armor on your SCs at first opportunity anyway.

Buffing zamzummites I'm more wary of. Boosting their spellcasting ability without a corresponding nerf in their thuggability is a net gain for Ashdod and I just can't see this as a weak nation that needs a buff.


Sure you can. How many people still think MA Ulm is weak? I don't think settling for a nation being OP is the way to go and will as often as not just result in them being banned. If you like a nation it's in your interest that it be perceived as balanced and allowed in games.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Adonim were overpowered because with an E10N4 bless, they were SCs from turn 2 when few have counters. (though heavy cavalry and elephants can still do quite a number on them)

Simply making that impossible, which bumping base encumbrance up to 3 already does, makes Adonim no more overpowered than Gath's Kohen Gadols, which are pretty much just unequipped Adonim, but with more magic and no research malus. Fully equipped, Adonim have the advantage of one more miscellaneous slot (meaning more expensive to outfit), but with hp on the low side.

I mean really, by your argument, Yomi must be the most ridiculously overpowered nation ever. Phoenix Pyre, Soul Vortex, and earth buffs on one commander, and no astral to be magic dueled unlike 1/3 of Adonim.

It certainly doesn't make a damn bit of sense to nerf their spellcasting instead of their thuggability as CBM did. In any case, I'm not really convinced their thuggability is even that big of an issue. Unless you are playing in some crazy rich setting or some ridiculously big map, the bottleneck will always be equipment, not thug chasis. And if you are playing in super big maps with super rich settings, that's ridiculously unbalancing to everything, and not something CBM should specifically be catering to.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Really? More slots is worse since you spend extra gems?

Adons still are SC from turn 1. The change of 1 enc doesn't alter that. Saying that is just silly. You can still expand perfectly with them though if you happen to see a heavy cavalry province or one with a lot of stuff in it god forbid you'll have to use something other than an Adon to take it, that is, before you manage to get a girdle of might on turn 15 and have zero enc again... In the meantime you just may have to use regular troops.
I don't get why people are obsessed with zero enc. You don't need zero enc to use Adons, or their regular sacreds for that matter. With E10 they will have enc 2 which is perfectly acceptable.
Research malus? What now? Who in their right mind would keep Adons in a fort researching anyway?

I don't see how having teleporting Adons are a problem for that matter either.

Kohen Gadols are not as dangerous simply because they are unequipped Adons, with more or less the same stats. And they don't really have more magic until you hit blood 9 or want to use a communion a bit more effectively though not efficiently.
The thing is, Kohen Gadols need quite a few more items than Adons. Their do have a better base enc by 1 but their armor sucks, their weapon is terrible and they don't have an extra gore attack. They also have slightly worse stats, lower attack, defense and protection. And the HP difference, that's 2 HP.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Did you read what I actually wrote? Extra slot is an advantage. Low hp is a disadvantage. And have you actually tested? I did, when this debate came up. Adons cannot reliably expand against dual dagger tribals and barbarians as well as heavy cavalry and elephants. Larger numbers (less than the 50 you could buy with the cost of an Adon) of heavy infantry will also kill them with fatigue. Honestly, I don't even mind that, though Jarls certainly would never have that problem. Nor do I mind the research malus, though you're being purposefully obtuse if you don't see a disadvantage in your cap not producing any RP. (I guess Ermor's longdead horse are free too)

The point is this. The fact that Adons are equipped is an advantage only in the early game, and by that, I mean before Ashdod even gets minimal reinvig gear at construction 2. Once they can be fatigued out by the same cost in heavy infantry, much less dedicated attempts with markata or more suitable chaff in that period, calling them overpowered (or SCs from turn 1) is absurd. Armor of Achilles is Alt2, Lightning Bolt and Rust Mist are Evo2. Adons without replacement armor and shield are mere thugs, since a single mage casting whichever one of the above you have paths for (and the E1 requirement for AoA is hardly hard to reach) and PD will kill Adons with just minimal reinvig gear. If you don't give them a brand, they'll go down to Swarm too, and without a Golden Shield, elephants and heavy cavalry will still kill them. Fully equipped Adons are good SCs, no question there, but they are no better than a fully equipped Kohen Gadol. And people will laugh at you if you claim Gath can never be balanced unless Kohen Gadols are removed.

Mictlan Feedback
 

Hi.

Can we potentially add 25% blood on mictlan priests? Currently, with the elimination of SDR and tlahuepulchi cost increase, the only effective way to blood hunt as mictlan is to use their cap only mages - and since Mictlan is all about blood it seems to be pretty ineffective.
Just my 2 cents

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Shangrila00, I was being sarcastic since you were being cute. I have no taste for pointless arguing.

Yes, I did actually test it, and I've had the misfortune of playing against Ashdod several times so far, both now and pre-nerf, and pre pre-nerf, so I'm not blowing this out of my ars.
Nothing can reliably expand against anything, IMO at least, and not even Giant commanders. (though dual dagger tribals are probably the best indies out there now :) )
Though it's no trouble clearing out barbarians and tribe warriors either. You could place an Adon in front, place 20 slingers behind with guard commander on a second commander and there you go.

The fact that Adons are equipped is an advantage only in the early game. It certainly is. So you have an advantage the first 15 ish turns there. And I don't think it's a small advantage.
Yes you can outfatigue them early on with crap troops like markata. But than again why would anyone actually send a lone Adon to his death like that?
Most if not all of the early game where you don't have access to construction is just expansion, and once you actually have to face someone you will probably have some gear to forge and level the encumbrance.

And you know spells have a range problem. All that sounds good in theory but when you place the Adon in the back with self buffs and waiting 5 times the spells are not gonna hit him. Or at least not unless you get sneaky and place your troops on guard commander or something. But I'm not stating that Adons are invinsible, but OP, and much better than Jarls, Fomo Kings, Kohen Gadols and Oni Kings. And I doubt you'd disagree with me here either.

And like I said, Kohen Gadols are not as nasty simply cause you can't use them early on like Adons.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Again, you can fatigue them out with heavy infantry now. And if you've managed to solve the supporting troops routing your SC problem that has been in the game since the beginning, please do share. And without major supporting troops, there are endless ways to counter hiding SC in the back, starting with the attack one turn order. I thought that was what half the game was about, outscripting your opponent?

And no, I don't agree they are better than the other premier recruitable SCs. Ungeared, Jarls are now better. Geared, Kohen Gadols, Fomorian Kings, and Dai Oni all have better access to buffs, as are, for that matter Jarls that can soul vortex.

Honestly, it's pretty clear that Ashdod gave you the bad touch in a few games, and you are now on a crusade of vengence or some such ridiculousness. "Ashdod can never be balanced as long as they have Adons" sounds pretty much exactly like Adons are invincible, and is so overwrought that it's difficult to take seriously. Can you point to Ashdod winning lots of CBM games besides your personal anecdotes of how overpowered they are against you? Certainly, a cursory search of the multiplayer forum suggests quite the opposite.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Dai Oni, Jarls and Fom. Kings are much, MUCH better then Adons.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Perhaps you should calm down a bit.

There are endless ways to counter anything in the game, I've never stated othervice so I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Adons are better from start that all their giant opposition, which was the whole point of my argument. It's sort of like why I'm opposed to the ridiculous Agartha PD, near impossible to deal with early on but gets easier as the game progresses, though Adons are not nearly as extreme of course.
Yes some Jarls can get soul vortex mid game (level 6 spell), as can Fomorian Kings, and mistform and mirror image, and other stuff. Dai Oni have the best buffing options. Fact. But by that time you'll have plenty of counter measures.

In my opinion Jarls are nearly as deadly as Adons, nearly. They still have a huge disadvantage when fighting in heat dominion where they are pretty much useless. The other thing where I feel Adons have an advantage is the diversity among Adons. Namely you get teleporting Adons, while Jarl don't really get any buffs from water. Quickness is hard to use. And last, Adons have better low level forging options.
Though I agree fully kitted Jarls can be better, but that's beside the point.

My point is that it is ridiculous that you can get a 36 prot/28 def/ regenerating/ reinvigoration (earth) Adon by the end of year 1. None of the other Giant nations can get anything nearly as good. Astral Adons are even better of course. There are many (as deadly) variants of Adon which you can easily get by turn 15.

Further more, I don't thing that anything is clear to you. What I said was more of a side comment. No I don't expect Adons to really be removed of course, that would be silly. Nor do I have a vendeta or crusade against them as I would have probably mentioned this sooner. I was just trying to state that they can't be balanced, which they bloody well can't. The problem was never in their sacreds or mages, at least for me. And uping enc by 1 doesn't make them any less deadly or useful suddenly.

As for actual wins. They don't count for anything. Everyone knows Ashdod always gets ganged upon. You rarely see any vets take Ashdod since they know they'd be doomed from the get go. And for example, EA Mictlan, which everyone can agree is an awesome nation, had lesser wins than MA Oceania or Cealum until relatively recently. So I don't credit the HoF with any sort of useful information of that sort.

Now I'm going to drop this matter because you're, for what ever reason, taking this personally and I have no interest in being dragged into a flame.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Wait...as far as I can see, I've been calmly debating. Pointing out how overwrought "Ashdod can never be balanced if they have Adons...because Ashdod kicked my butt!!!!" isn't itself overwrought except in magical projection land.

Your arguments are easy to see as a crusade of vengence because they are rather silly. Teleportation (at construction 6) being overpowered, when every Fomorian King can teleport at Enchantment 4, and without dying to magic duel. Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry, and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in. You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super.

I mean, really, arguing on the one side that the Adon research malus means nothing since they should be out fighting, and simultaneously claiming that an Ashdod doing that will have Conjuration 3 and Construction 2 year 1? Where in the world is all that research coming from? The awake research pretender Ashdod took that also has E10N4+ and decent economic scales right? No doubt using that -100 point Ashdod only E3N1 chasis called "I win."

Please, share the build you know Ashdod can use to do what you claim it can. Or if you don't want to because you can't, admit it. Trying to abandon an argument by claiming nonexistent flaming though...that's bad form.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

LOL. You're funny. I wonder what you're like when you get all fussy.
Well, for the record I've never lost to Ashdod. But I get that you like to pull things out of context.

And I don't see why you have to recruit an Adon every turn? Oh, yes, 300 research in 12 turns is absolutely unimaginable. While, you'd have to recruit a mage every turn almost!

Heck no, I'll not abandon this now, it's fun. Do I do think you need some manners.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

why don't you actually play Ashdod in the new cbm. Then you can talk. Because the stuff you are talking about now can't be done.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

It most certainly can when you play your cards right.
And I have no intension of proving any point by playing them in game. What I say comes from experience, like the **** storm with Agartha.
Besides, I dislike Ashdod, there are many other nations I'd sooner play then them.

Though I wouldn't drop the opportunity to do just that if I got them in a random game.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Hey, perhaps you should calm down a bit.

For whatever reason, you seem to be taking this personally, and I have no interest in...okay let's get serious.

So present your build that allows Ashdod to do what you claim. It doesn't take a great deal of math to demonstrate Ashdod can have at most 321 rp by the end of year 1. That's by recruiting one 200 gold or 310 gold sacred mage per turn, with no site searching, and no Adons. What kind of troops are you recruiting for expansion, and when is your second fort going up? Do so, and I will concede that point, though it would be nice if you responded to the others as well.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

My point is that if you do buff their spell casting without any other penalty that is a bonus to the unit/nation. So then the question becomes whether Ashdod as a whole is a weak nation that needs a buff. If the nation doesn't need a buff and you'd prefer to see a change in emphasis from zamzummites as thugs to them being spellcasters (with a corresponding nerf to their thuggability), well that's llama's call and I don't have an opinion either way.


But that logic applies to any thug chassis. I play a lot with Sidhe Lords, one of the best (maybe the best) thugs out-of-the-box. But even they need some gear if you want them to handle more than a few points of PD. So gems are always an issue.

And even out-of-the-box zamzummites have some nice crowd control capabilities - fire shield, invulnerability, soul vortex, BE and luck all being in their repertoire or easily castable on them by other national mages.

As far as spell casting goes, 1 in 4 can skelly spam with reasonable fatigue, another 1 in 4 can participate in communions and cast nether darts, the 1 in 4 E randoms act as army buffers, and the one in four F randoms can cast flaming arrows with a booster. Also worth noting is that they can all cast disintegrate which, quite usefully, is something the AI will actually cast off-script. So basically half of them are suited for evo. work and the other half are more suited for thug work. I don't think that's a bad mix.

Now if you implement kianduatha's suggestion of a 25% chance of an extra DE pick I don't think that would be unbalancing but personally I wouldn't go past that percentage.

It's been a while but IIRC zamzummites were a considerable part of the complaints about Ashdod. You've got some leeway with cap only units because they don't scale but I think with non-cap units extra caution is warranted. And again, Ashdod is hardly in dire straits.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well don't reedit so I can't see.

Okay,
Didn't say teleportation is OP, just that they too have that option. And I'd rather have an astral teleporter than air, magic duel or not.

"Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in."

It doesn't as you don't need zero reinvigoration against indies. That is if you even chose to use only Adons for expansion which I don't see why you would. You don't lose much even if you don't recruit a single Adon until turn 15. Wait and build an extra fort and a research force by that time. Expand with national and indies and mercs and than start poping out Adons.
Against a human opponent you wouldn't risk an Adon like that.

"You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super."

Why can't I? They are great if you chose to expand with them at which point they don't need equipment. Sure you'll need to stay clear of some provinces but that's always been the case and you'll need some extra help on others. And than you get to the point where you face a human opponent at which point you throw in items to make those Adons really nasty.

You don't need to take the end of year 1 literally though even that can be done. Turn 15? Certainly.
As for a build, take a standard Cyclops, E10N4, dominion 6. Order 3, production 0-2. Misfortune 2. Magic 1 or 3. Death 1. Heat 3.
Build a sage every turn and you can have 2 Adons and const 2 and conjuration 3 by year 2.
For expansion use regular Ashdod troops. Use indie commanders to led them. Use mercs. Dominions is a game of chance and luck, you can't take every word or guide literally. **** you can get stamped by knight on turn 2 and game over, or you can get 3000 gold and a robe of the mage and go crazy.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well, as you say, Sidhe Lords are about the best. They just need brand and shield with a high bless. Zamzummites need that, plus armor and helmet and a ton more research. And opportunity costs of course, it's hardly unlikely for the number of Adons to outstrip equipment availability. There's a legitimate choice between deploying Sidhe Lords as thugs or your cap only's if you don't have the resources to field both, not so much with Ashdod.

CBM has already changed the emphasis of zamzummites from spellcasters to thugs, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Like I said, I think the second random should become just death. Disintegrate is not really an argument, no more than storm of thorns. Death battlemagic needs D3s and 1/4 is too few for serious death battlemagic.

I editted 13 minutes before your response. Did you really spend 13 minutes writing that?

Do you have any actual justification for this? A 500 gold cap only with only S2 is about the ideal target for magic duel, and the MA is the strongest age for astral.

You have repeated claimed the increase in encumbrance does nothing to Adons. Are you saying that too, like your claim about year 1 geared Adons was not intended to be taken as an actual claim?

If Adonim can't be risked against humans before the human can field counters, why exactly are they OP?

Everybody has to be careful against heavy cav and elephants. Adonim have to be careful against something like half the indy provinces you are likely to see in an initial expansion. And if you are recruiting Adonim for expansion, they aren't going to be notably nasty until well into year 2 thanks to your awful research. If you aren't, you are leaning on expensive regulars, expensive mercenaries, and expensive researchers while your scales are not exactly great (combining misfortune and death, how fun) thanks to a high bless that you aren't even using. Unless of course, you just decide not to take a high bless for a unit that you won't even field until year 2. How exactly are they OP again?

Moreover, you seem to be forgetting your initial claim, that Ashdod can field fully geared and buffed SCs year 1, and nobody else can, and that's why Adon are OP. You've now admitted that's not actually true, that Ashdod can gear up SCs no earlier than anybody else. At which point, how exactly is an Adon superior to the geared, mistformed/mirror imaged Fom King, or fireshield/earth buffed Dai Oni that would also be fielded at the same time?

It's pretty clear that you tried to argue that Adonim are OP by combining all the things they can do in all possible strategies and pretending it's all possible in the same game, which is manifestly false.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well, I think you have to do a peer comparison and in the MA the leading death nations (Ermor, C'tis, Shin) all max out at D3 (outside of the 1 in 40 chance of D4 with their 10% randoms). Now you have to take the total package into account when judging a nation: Ermor has its free spawn, C'tis has its miasma, Shin has its excellent battle magic and Ashdod has its SCs/thugs. If Ashdod didn't have something "extra" like the other nations I could maybe see boosting their magic but given the context I don't really see a case for Ashdod to have higher levels of D magic.

Really, the more I think about it, the more I think changing zamzummite's magic paths is a bad idea (the armor change seems fine, though). I think Ashdod is a solid nation that there isn't a need to ban or dogpile and that's a good change both for people playing other nations and for people who want to play Ashdod.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Ermor is a communion nation, and Shinuyama's a nation with battlemagic and death magic, not a nation whose battlemagic is death magic. MA C'tis, I admit is a nation I've never figured out how to play. Thematically speaking, MA is when C'tis turned away from necromancy and when Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath turned to necromancy, so it makes sense that Ashdod's would be better.

In any case, every age must logically have a single strongest nation. For MA, I'm pretty sure that's Pythium, before and after Ashdod got nerfed. Even if Ashdod was the strongest nation in the MA, that's not reason in and of itself to nerf it (remember we are talking a unit that was nerfed and whether that's justified, not whether a unit should be buffed). Only tactics that cannot reasonably be countered at an equal skill level would be that (and I agree turn 2 0 fatigue Adons are that), and common D3s are definitely not overpowering. If simply being second strongest is reason for nerfing to middle of the pack, that would just result in endless shuffling to no purpose.