Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Yes, I'm aware of all your points Don. Hence why I'm discussing them in a mod thread and not making pointless requests of your time.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Well then please enlighten me......the OOB is full....the usefulness of an OOB that will not work with the existing scenarios is not even remotely worth the effort to create. It would involve hundreds of hours of work so a handful of people MIGHT DL it and MAYBE half that actually use it ( maybe .....) so what's the point of wishing for an OOB with the early 1942 camo patterns when there is NO place to put them even if they were built ?

The REASON the German OOB looks the way it does is due 18 of player requests like yours.....it could be described as "too complete"

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I apologize for bringing it up, I'll drop the subject.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I like the SPWW2 German OOB as is. It is detailed enough, I'd say. You've got all kinds of exotic stuff in there to play with. You even have Orpo, which is unique.

I'd only make cosmetic changes at best otherwise the in-game scenarios - the Germans are in a lot of them - would be ruined.

Sound work - like Cross' mod would be as advanced as I'd consider going.

Maybe implement some of the new icons if it was not too complicated. To be fair though I never saw the point. Don and Andy have it covered.

As a modder I prefer something totally new where I can be a bit more creative in my own right.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

over 500 scenarios have Germany as either P1 or P2 when the scenarios that are in the campaigns are added into the count.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Any news on DR? Or just busy with real life?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Expect something VERY soon... ;)

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvqIHVGoh4

Version 1.0P (P for Public) of the "Das Reich" mod for WinSP:MBT is ready for download at the link below:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m0dbj5357...h7fgdE9Aa?dl=0

Read the "readme" and "info" files!

Enjoy!

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Will get to work on the mirror, comrade!

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Here's the mirror.

http://alternatewars.com/Games/SPant...sReich1-0p.zip

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Looking at the encyclopedia now, Monty; and very nice.

Random thought -- do you have a rough idea of how German technology in various areas developed from the late 1940s in your timeline?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

One area I'm curious about is, what's the post-War German Navy?

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

So figure:

Bismarck (25 years old in August 1965)
Tirpitz (25 years old in February 1966)
Friedrich der Grosse (H-39 Schlachtschiff H) (commissioned Sep 1943, 25 years old Aug 1968)
Hindenburg (H-39 Schlachtschiff J) (commissioned Nov 1943, 25 years old Oct 1968)
Goeben (H-39 Schlachtschiff K) (commissioned Feb 1944, 25 years old Feb 1969)

Schl. H and J were actually laid down in 1939, while K was also ordered in 1939.

But beyond that, I can't see a rationale for major battleship construction, as air power will quickly become apparent as the new dominant force at sea.

So I figure that in the 1950s, the Germans BBGize the three newest ships, while keeping Bismarck and Tirpitz as "expendable" shore bombardment ships.

1950s conversions were studied by the US for the Iowas, and the French for the Jean Bart. Essentially what was proposed was that half the main armament was stripped and replaced with a new superstructure accommodating the new missile directors and launchers.

But by the mid 1960s, all of the ships are going to be approaching 25 years old; about the same age for example, a World War I battleship commissioned 1916 would have been in 1941; and this means their steam plants would be old and creaky.

A big reason the battleships stayed on for so long in the US in mothballs was because of the USMC and their requirement for heavy naval gun support -- are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Correct. Although the Kriegsmarine was just as much about prestige as it was about projecting German naval power onto the world's oceans (irl: the North-Atlantic, Med. etc), so I envisaged larger ships staying on as long as possible (with major over-hauls of the inner workings and the weapons' systems) or being replaced with newer, more modern, models.

The Kriegsmarine (kaiserliche Marine if you are playing with the Kaiserreich set up) serves two primary functions within this project: One, is protecting the Reich's maritime borders; the other is facilitating the projection of the Reich's military power beyond its borders (e.g. in the event of another major conflagration).

Like any major navy it has all the kit needed to accomplish both these tasks and with the better part of European industry at its disposal it also has this kit in abundance.

Now, I like big guns, and I like the idea of being able to carry out amphibious operations with some heavy naval support at one's disposal - whether landing off the coast of North America or in the Persian Gulf - so the OOB reflects this. Those who would prefer using smaller calibre naval support into the current decade (as in real life) can use the lighter naval support options (the pics are not definitive).

In a word, yes. Being one of the spearheads in any invasion/police action (the other being the air-landing forces available to the Luftwaffe) where amphibious operations are concerned it has a fair amount of clout. Let us just say that the events in the pacific in these time lines were closely monitored and lessons were learned ;).

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

What would you like to know?

If you take a look at OOB44, for instance, you will note that the air assets are mostly VTOL technologies around the 1960s onwards. These aircraft are supposed to represent likely aircraft-carrier / colonial Fliegerhorst load outs.

In OOB35, a more conventional Luftwaffe can be found: Jabos, Bombers and Strategic Bombers.

The helicopters in both are a mish-mash of extrapolations (based on existing models from the US and USSR) and real-world German projects (some completed up to and incl. the prototype phase).

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Just how complete was the III Reich's victory in Continental Europe in the mid 1940s? Was the USSR forced to the negotiating table and severely reduced in power by the capture of Moscow and the death of Stalin in the turmoil following Moscow's fall?

Reason I ask is if the USSR is still an active serious going concern, it has a lot of influence on future post-war AFV design; through the IS series of heavy tanks and the T-44/54 AFV lineage.

If however, the USSR is a puppeted shell of itself, then a lot of the pressure for product improvement is lost globally in AFV design.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

That is kind of up to the end-users, really. Why start placing constraints on people's imaginations?

It could be anything from a border that starts where the Ukraine and Belarus end all the way up to and including the Urals or along the Volga for that matter if you'd prefer something in between.

I prefer the border to be at the Urals.

For the sake of playability, wherever that border may lay the USSR (and the communist block) has still to be a viable opponent.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Thanks for all participants about great mod:). Especially icons are great (and Germany flag too;)). Installing was big job but worth of it;)...

Warhero

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I wonder how many people have downloaded so far :confused:.

Maybe there is a way of finding out.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Take a look at this: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...h/history.html

I am thinking the H39-H42 are all viable variants for the post-war Kriegsmarine. Maybe two ships in the H39 configuration, two in the 40 A and then one or two each for H40B-H42. The H43 and 44 are just too monstrous. What do you say?

This website was one of my sources.

Take a look at the carriers.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I can help with that (at least partially).

My website stats says that DAS REICH's url has been hit 20 times and about 1.55 GB of data have been downloaded; at 120~ MB that's about 12 people. (Subtract one for a self-test I did).

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I know this site as well :D

That makes sense. Also, the H43/H44 designs were apparently never 'serious' designs. They were apparently intended as paper exercises on "what would it take to make a battleship immune from known threats?"; in much the same way the Tillman "Maximum" Battleships were an answer to the question "What if we stopped making the ships slightly bigger every few years, and just ordered the maximum biggest possible ship from the beginning?"

Tillman Battleships

I'd have to say the CA Seydlitz to CVL conversion is the most probable. Notice how all the other conversions studied were halted for various design issues such as lack of stability and high fuel consumption?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Yes, those Tillmans are monsters too.

The Flugdeckkreuzer are also interesting designs. I like the Mark A III and A IV especially. I can see something similar being done with Battleships in the 60s. As discussed earlier.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

The USN and other navies investigated the flying deck cruiser concept heavily during the 1920s up to February 1940; but it was killed off by the coming of WWII.

One such actual USN FDC Design of the 30s

The French investigated it as well, their final FDC warship having a single 11 inch gun turret aft.

French PA-5B

This is what

THE HYBRID WARSHIP
The Amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft

Has to say about the German FDCs:

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Recruit Monty; here's my stab at making a Timeline for DAS REICH -- it's cribbed heavily from earlier attempts at making a somewhat plausible "Germany does a lot better" timeline.

-----------------

OBJECTIVE OF THIS EXERCISE:

Develop a somewhat plausible timeline that lets the Germans do better in the East without resorting to a significant amount of "handwavium".

A lot of my thinking was musing on how to make SEA LION work after reading almost halfway through a book on Switzerland in WW2 titled: Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War 2.

The book made a good point -- many of the German conquests of 1939-41 were basically rolling the dice and then getting supremely lucky like:

A.) Taking Denmark in six hours and 200 dead through forcing the capitulation of the Danish government.

B.) France folding despite it not being hopeless -- the French military still had many units still in reserve that were unmobilized and the Armee d l'Air had MORE aircraft operational at the Armistice than they did in May 1940.

C.) Yugoslavia; a mountain country full of psychotics armed to the teeth folded in about a month.

In contrast, the Swiss General Staff said basically:

"ANY orders that say surrender or anything like that are automatically invalid whether or not they come from the federal council or general staff.

You are to fight to the last bullet and then engage in guerilla warfare if you aren't dead yet."

It made me start to think about the role that "psychological operations" played in the early German victories particularly since Europe in 1930-1941 was a very tired and sick continent still recovering from the horrors of World War I and this led into my thoughts on how to make a semi successful SEA MARMOSET.

I hit upon not having a big POD, but several medium sized ones.

1.) Churchill -- He gets hit by a Taxi and either dies or is invalided in the 1930s. He might have a good writing career in books or as a political pundit, but the injury is enough to keep him from serious political campaigning as a MP.

2.) The King -- Edward VIII never abdicates.

3.) Goering -- In the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, he twists away at the last second, and gets injured slightly less. If you quantified the charisma and intelligence of Pre-Putsch 1923 Goering as being 100%, with Nuremberg 1945 Goering as being about 60-70%; then due to twisting away at the last second, this Goering is about 40%, compared to the 25% that occured in Real Life.

Essentially, Goering's health is improved enough that he can take a better interest in the Luftwaffe, as opposed to collecting stolen art, the social life, etc. This results in slightly improved production in both pilots and planes.

This doesn't account to much initially -- 5 or 10 extra planes a week and a few extra pilots a month, but over time, this builds up; allowing the Luftwaffe to better absorb losses from Poland and the Battle of France, so they're in a better tactical position when the Battle of Britain starts.

The Luftwaffe doesn't decisively *win* the Battle of Britain, but they get to a point where Sea Marmoset appears somewhat feasible to execute in the eyes of staff planners.

Additionally, because Churchill's been out of the political picture, there's no incredibly brutal sinking of the French fleet, so this means the Royal Navy has to entertain the POSSIBILITY of French Vichy units assisting the Kriegsmarine, complicating their planning for defeating a German invasion.

So, Sea Marmoset opens about September to October 1940, with mass Fallschirmjaeger landings in Southern England; and these landings go about as well as Crete did in real life -- 60% to 70% or more casualties in certain subunits in 7 Flieger Division and a 40% casualty rate for the division as a whole.

It's horrifically bloody, but they manage to secure at least one harbor in Southern England, enabling follow on sea-based reinforcements.

So...you've got the Kriegsmarine and (maybe) the Vichy French Navy battling it out in the Channel, while the Luftwaffe can seize air superiority over Southern England enough of the time to attrit the RAF, when the RAF comes to bomb the German landing areas.

Up in London, there's no Sir Winston drinking brandy and issuing speeches like "we will fight on the beaches, from the rooftops, etc..." backed up by the implacable George VI; so the political elite of England are wavering.

As emphasized by Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War 2, the Germans never really quite defeated everyone except Poland -- they always got K.O. rulings by the Judge when the ruling elite capitulated early -- until of course.... RUSSIA.

Eventually, the political pressure gets to be too much and the British fold their cards like the others have so far in WWII -- asking for an Armistice.

The deal is -- Britain basically recognizes the New Order in Europe and lifts the blockade on Germany in exchange for the New Order not messing with the British Empire.

Inside Britain, you'd see the fascist parties regroup after their prominent members (Mosley, etc) are let out of prison, and they'd maybe get a few MPs in parliament due to the 'Bandwagon effect'.

Over in the Soviet Union; Stalin is going oh ****, and frantically redoubling his efforts to regenerate the Red Army following the Purges; but he did too much; good operations officers, etc don't grow on trees.

Following the Armistice with Britain that ended the European War of 1939-40, it's possible that Hitler, prodded by the Kreigsmarine, begins negotiations with France and the Netherlands over a formal lightening of the occupation -- "gee, we'd like to withdraw from your countries, but you know, we need something a little...extra."

So at least one major island in the Dutch East Indies chain is basically a German Colony now; along with possibly parts of Indochina?

The new German colonies in Asia; along with the added influence of the Germans in the region -- "look, you really do want to sell oil to the Japanese. No really. You DO want to. It would be a shame if we expanded our holdings..." can end up postponing the Japanese-American Pacific War until maybe 1942-43, due to Japan getting an independent source of raw materials that bypasses the American Embargo.

Japan's kicking off of the Pacific War could be due to them doing the calculations on fleet sizes:

Third Vinson Act -- June 14, 1940
Two Ocean Navy Bill -- July 19, 1940

Those two bills passed in Our TimeLine (OTL) in the Summer of 1940 following the fall of France (but before the Battle of Britain) basically authorized through simple tonnage:

10 x Fleet Carriers
9 x Battleships
37 x Cruisers (approx average of CA/CL tonnage)
61 x Submarines
125 x Destroyers

Once Britain signs an Armistice, the US is going to be going holy **** even more than Stalin is. You might see a Fourth Vinson Act signed; adding possibly:

3 to 4 x Fleet CV
4 x Battleships
15 x Cruisers
20 x Submarines
60 x Destroyers

to the US fleet by 1945.

[ED NOTE: An enormous amount of industrial capacity was consumed by the Destroyer Escort and Liberty/Victory Ship building program; if you don't have these, it's possible for all this to be built by '44-45]

That means...Japan is simply outbuilt massively in Naval strength by 1944-45; so their only option is to...STRIKE FAST before the US can bring online all these new ships.

However, they need raw materials; so from 1940-1941 there is a constant battle within the Japanese hierarchy over "do we have enough stockpiled materials from the New Order in Europe?" and "We must strike now before the Americans grow strong!".

Eventually, the "STRIKE" group gets ascendant and they strike in 1942.

EDIT: More to be done later.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

The Germans could not have invaded Britain in 1940. The Royal Navy was simply far too large and too powerful for the Germans to have had any chance of success, even more so after the heavy German naval losses off Norway, etc.

Even if the Germans had managed, somehow, to get most of a first wave safely ashore, they could not have been kept supplied.

The RAF, even if losing to the German Air Force could always have pulled aircraft back beyond range of German Fighter escorts. UK was in 1940, hugely out producing Germany in terms of fighter aircraft.

This subject has been done to death in other places but Sealion never stood any chance of success whatever. None.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Sealion was a part pipe dream part sideshow to divert attention from Barbarossa

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Without Churchill, UK might, or might not, have tried to make peace with Germany, after the defeat of France, since Hitler certainly offered it.

What Hitler stood no chance of doing was forcing UK to make peace by a successful landing in Britain.

A German attempt at a paratroop landing would have firstly been massacred by RAF Fighter Command, but even if a large number of troops managed to land -unlikely in itself- they would have fared even worse than they actually did in Crete, where they faced almost no air opposition and no armoured vehicles, and where they nearly lost. Remember Germany had one airborne Divsion only in 1940.

Even if the airborne troops don't get shot down on route and then, somehow manage to capture a port, how do the Germans reinforce them with next to no navy, facing what, in 1940, was still the joint largest navy in the world?

"Royal Navy Warship Strength

The Royal Navy, still the largest in the world in September 1939, included:

15 Battleships & battlecruisers, of which only two were post-World War 1. Five 'King George V' class battleships were building.

7 Aircraft carriers. One was new and five of the planned six fleet carriers were under construction. There were no escort carriers.

66 Cruisers, mainly post-World War 1 with some older ships converted for AA duties. Including cruiser-minelayers, 23 new ones had been laid down.

184 Destroyers of all types. Over half were modern, with 15 of the old 'V' and 'W' classes modified as escorts. Under construction or on order were 32 fleet destroyers and 20 escort types of the 'Hunt' class.

60 Submarines, mainly modern with nine building.

45 escort and patrol vessels with nine building, and the first 56 'Flower' class corvettes on order to add to the converted 'V' and 'W's' and 'Hunts'. However, there were few fast, long-endurance convoy escorts.

Commonwealth Navies

Included in the Royal Navy totals were:

Royal Australian Navy - six cruisers, five destroyers and two sloops;

Royal Canadian Navy - six destroyers;

Royal Indian Navy - six escort and patrol vessels;

Royal New Zealand Navy, until October 1941 the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy - two cruisers and two sloops."

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignRoyalNavy.htm

The manpower of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines stood at over 200,000 in 1939.

By contrast even before losses off Norway, etc in 1939 Germany had

2 Battle Cruisers ( with 2 Battleships building)
3 'Pocket Battleships'
8 Cruisers (with 1 building)
22 Destroyers (with 12 building)
20 Torpedo boats with 12-14 building
57 submarines

The Germans had a number of other ships in the early stages of construction, but not much useful work was done on them after the outbreak of war.


By 1940 from this initially small force the Germans had already lost one 'Pocket Battleship', three cruisers and 10 Destroyers, ie roughly a third of their naval forces at the outbreak of war.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

It's why I had to go back and change a few things (Churchill, King, Goering) to make Sealion *possible*, and even then; I had to stick to a limited Sea Lion.

Most of the 'Classic' Sea Lion Scenarios posited such as by Kenneth Macksey in his Book "INVASION" in 1980 start with the Germans gaining a foothold, proceeding to Line #1, then... LONDON [tm] and Line #2.

Classical Sea Lion Map

In my envisioned Leichte Sea Lion, air landings then backed up by sea reinforcements come on a line from Bexhill to Ramsgate (about 50 miles frontage); and the deepest penetrations *may* come within artillery range of the outskirts of London (or not).

In any event, the Germans can't truly *conquer* England, not unless we Alien Space Bat so many things that this isn't World War II anymore, but some sort of weird parallel universe with reptilians.

What they can do is try to force a negotiated peace through a series of political shocks against England similar to that done to Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece by Germany, and much later in World War II by America against Japan in August 1945.

I know; it's kind of weak, but I'm trying my best to make something that's not too outlandish.

Some political shocks that are possible are:

A.) An actual invasion of England, as opposed to aerial bombardment.

B.) Capture of significant portion of the BEF around Dunkirk -- historically 338,000~ men escaped while about 50,000 men in total walked into captivity. A total German crushing of Dunkirk isn't possible, due to RAF aerial cover and Royal Navy fire support; along with the internal logistics of assaulting Dunkirk -- the British and French can collapse their perimeter step by step, making their defenses stronger with each mile -- but you can reduce the amount of men escaping from Dunkirk to say, maybe 50-60% of what it was historically. This has some important effects, as the BEF was the long-service cream of the British Army at the time AFAIK.

C.) The Royal Navy can be significantly blooded in the North Sea / Channel, when they intervene. It's worth noting that the RN had global commitments, reducing the actual strength they can bring into operation in Home Waters:

ROYAL NAVY SHIPS, JUNE 1940 (Part 1 of 4)
ROYAL, DOMINION and INDIAN NAVY SHIPS, JUNE 1940 (Part 4 of 4)

(cruisers and DDs not counted, as I'd have to count each one individually from the lists)

Home Waters Around England:
4 x BB (Barham, Nelson, Rodney, Valiant)
3 x BC (Renown, Repulse, Hood)
2 x CV (Ark Royal, Furious)

North Atlantic (Near Gibraltar)
1 x BB (Resolution)
1 x CL (Arethusa)

Mediterranean Fleet:
4 x BB (Malaya, Ramilles, Royal Sovereign, Warspite)
2 x CV (Eagle, Argus)

South Atlantic Command
1 x CV (Hermes) Near West Africa

Bermuda/Halifax Escort Force:
1 x BB (Revenge) at Halifax, Canada

Royal Australian Navy / Canadian / New Zealand: Concentrated in their home waters basically.

Then there's the wild card of the French Navy:

2 x BB (Paris, Courbet) in service, with 2 x BB (Richeliu, Jean Bart) under construction, plus the attendant heavy (cruisers) and light (destroyers) escorts.

If Churchill is not PM, do the British have the intestinal fortitude necessary to shell the French fleet and sink it at anchor and/or blockade/intern them to remove them from the equation?

Against this, the German Navy is:

1 x BB (Bismarck) -- is still new and working up.
2 x Unavailable BC (Scharnhorst, Gneisenau) - In repair yards until December 1940.
2 x Unavailable CB (Admiral Scheer, Lützow) -- Scheer is on a raiding cruise, while Lutzow is under repair until Spring 1941.
2 x CA (Adm Hipper, Prinz Eugen) -- Hipper is earmarked for Sea Lion support, while Prinz Eugen is still new and working up.
3 x CL (Emden, Köln, Nürnberg)
14 x DD (Z4, Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, Z10, Z14, Z15, Z16, Z18, 19, 20, 21, 22) (approximately)
3 x Coming Soon DD (Z23, Z24, Z25) -- Commissioned Sep-Nov 1940.

On paper, the correlation of naval forces in home waters is untenable enough that even Hitler would be leery of putting Sea Lion on.

But as I posited earlier, what if Goering was marginally wounded less in 1923; so he's not as much of a morphine addict as he was in real life?

Goering was pretty charismatic when he wasn't doped up to the gills on drugs.

In real life, the Germans from July to September 1940 lost 1,600~ combat aircraft (classified destroyed on operations): Link to Strategy for Defeat The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 Table IX

That's bad; but what if the losses were shaved a bit off (4-5% less) to higher initial starting strengths, due to Goering being more competent over the years leading up to 1940?

Also of note is the extremely low loss rate (relatively speaking) in the Ju-87 units -- only 21% of initial strength, compared to 45% in bomber units and 66% in twin engine fighter units.

The Ju-87B can carry a 1,100 lb bomb out to a combat radius of 275 km; that's enough to essentially cover the English Channel and southern parts of the North Sea from bases in France. I don't have the ranges for -87B with the 2,200 lb bomb, but eh. A more coherent, less overweight Goering could convince Hitler that "no, the Kriegsmarine can't stop the Royal Navy, but my Luftwaffe can".

With the air forces on both sides being far more powerful than they were in WWI, battles between the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine might actually resemble more the frenzied night fighting between the USN and IJN near Guadalcanal, with small task forces from both sides steaming into the area for bombardment of the landing zone / night fighting around midnight each night; with the damaged ships on both sides from that night's fighting becoming centerpieces for the next day's aerial battles.

With a much weaker internal British political establishment -- no Churchill, a pro-German sympathetic king in Edward VIII, and the political elite in London being able to see the flashes of gunfire in Southern England on certain nights; along with the steady attrition of the RAF and Royal Navy every day; an armistice isn't so far fetched as it might sound.

It's still a very long shot; but it's better than "Germans invade England on a 120~ mile invasion landing front, and then push 50-60 miles inland and occupy London and execute a reign of terror." in terms of plausibility.

NOTE: As an aside, a lot of scenarios are writing themselves in my head -- the old SSI Fighting Steel game with the Fighting Steel Project mod would have been awesome for this confused night fighting, but alas, Fighting Steel's engine relied on a specific implementation of DirectX that was eliminated by Microsoft only months after the original game release in 1999.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I seem to recall reading the Luftwaffe was winning the Battle of Britain when they were concentrating on radar and air bases, then when they switched to cities (particularly London) it allowed the RAF to recover.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Actually, you know, I had a long walk with the dog, and I realized I was over thinking things.

No invasion of England is actually needed to force Britain into an armistice if there's no Churchill and Edward VIII is on the throne.

The shock of France crumbling in just 43 days (as opposed to grinding it out to the end over 4 years as in WWI), followed by the loss of a significant portion of the BEF into captivity would be enough to shake the British government to it's core and raise calls for an armistice.

You know, I can't help but wonder if people were calling for that in May 1940 in real life. I'd sure love to read British newspapers from back then.

It's just that you know...it's a CHALLENGE, damnit to make a Sea Lion that's somewhat plausible. :rolleyes:

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

It is fairly well known now that the German Naval High Command opposed Sea Lion almost from the beginning, the Battle of Britain sealed the fate of that operation. Hitler as we know would draw his attention back to Russia as he saw the Soviet Socialists system as a bigger threat not only to himself but the world. He did after all saw himself as a "crusader" at times. Also it should be noted that almost to the mid/or end of the WWII he still thought some accommodation could be made with England.

I believe to get a better picture of Churchill, mood of the English and military status and issues I would highly recommend reading William Manchester's (w/Paul Reid who Manchester personally chose to finish Vol. III) Vol. II The Last Lion/Alone, 1932-1940 Pub. 1988 and Vol. III The Last Lion/Defender Of The Realm, 1940-1965 Pub. 2012 (Which greatly benefited from the release of classified documents from all the major powers involved starting from 1995 on.), you would be hard pressed to find a better all round references. I personally found them very insightful and feel he was the best (Unfortunately in part also in his uncanny way of predicting future events leading well into The Cold War.) of the "Big Four" he wasn't perfect but, he was better than good. It's worth noting his bust was and is again the only foreign leader to be honored and held in the White House to my limited knowledge.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Regards,

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

A good deal of the Royal Australian and Royal New Zealand navies were actually not in their home waters in 1939-40, but supporting the RN in the Med and Atlantic, etc. Canadian troops were also in UK.

the lower losses of the JU87's were purely because they suffered such heavy losses in their early operations against Britain, that the German Air Force had to totally withdraw them from operations over and close to UK.

Also worth bearing in mind that the German Air Force in 1939-40, in common with most other air forces, was actually not all that good at sinking enemy warships that early in the war.(although they improved later on).

I am not all that convinced that Edward VIII was really all that pro German and, in any case, even in 1940 the views of a British King, were hardly all that important in political as opposed to propaganda terms.

Yes a UK without Churchill might, maybe, have made peace with Germany after the fall of France, if the German terms had been generous enough (ie, no loss of territory, no German troops on any British territory at home or overseas, no concessions to Italy, full exchange of prisoners, etc). However even such a peace would have seen UK continue to re-arm and, perhaps to Britain's advantage, might have enabled this to happen without British bankruptcy by 1942...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

It's been widely rumored (or is it now confirmed?) that's why Rudolf Hess flew to Scotland and was the sole prisoner in Spandau after 1966 till his death in 1987.
The possibility of a separate peace between Britain and Germany in mid-1941.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Bah, here's something to fill in a hole in your OOB: the Ju-252/352.

Hacked together from the SPCAMO MBT DC-4/C-54 generic silv/white (Icon2785) in about 45 minutes and some comparing Ju-52 to Ju 252 drawings.

Why so important:

Ju-52: About 10.2m2 floor space and 18.5m3 volume and about 2 tonnes of payload to a range of 650 miles at a cruising speed of about 120-130 MPH.

Ju-252: About 22m2 floor space and 38m3 volume and about 7 tonnes of payload to range of 2,400 miles at a cruising speed of about 220+ MPH.

The 252 is roughly comparable to the C-46 Commando basically.

Bah, some parts don't look right. Oh well, version 2.0 tomorrow.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.

If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.

In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.

Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.

Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.

Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.

What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.

Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.

Still food for thought I hope...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

To try to understand WWII you have to know that in 1939:

Hitler was in some respects not very bright, including his moronic hatred of Jewish people.

Italy and Japan, generally, sensibly, did not share Hitler's views on Jewish people.

In the 1930's the USA and the British Empire mainly saw themselves as trade rivals. The USA had a war plan against Canada and the British Empire that was updated into the 1930's.

Winston Churchill had an American mother he was very, very, fond of that gave his, always very emotional, view of the world a pro-American bias that most of us thinking British folks, thought/think was a little bit excessive...

Prior to 1939 Stalin in the USSR had killed vastly more civilians than Germany. By 1944/45 Roosevelt said he trusted Stalin more than Churchill and acted on it. We all know what that led to...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Had I been in Churchill's position when Hitler invaded Russia, I would not have risked one single British ship or sent Stalin as much as a second hand pair of British Army boots while British forces in the Far East (Malaya and Burma) lacked tanks and modern aircraft.

In the event the vast amount of British and American military aid sent to Russia that cost the western allies -mainly UK- dear in warships and merchant ships, did very little to stop the German onslaught into the then USSR IN 1941-43, but did allow Stalin's forces, by giving them transport, to romp into Europe in 1944-45.

A book I recommend is "The Last Thousand Days of the British Empire" by Peter Clarke (2008). I do not agree with all of it, but it makes a lot of very good points from a British point of view.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

As stated earlier it was primarily economic.

After the Spanish-American War in 1898 the US had a few overseas holdings and while there was no chance of building a "British Empire" they could, and did, compete economically, and China was a pretty significant market. The USA became seriously involved in global trade post WW I (why the US Navy expanded so much between WW I and WW II).

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"

So a little graphics for RecruitMonty, then back to our arguing :p

Version 2.0 of Ju-252, with:

1.) Generic Silver Scheme.
2.) Lufthansa Scheme (Black Bands)
3.) All White Winter Scheme.
4.) Green Camouflage Summer Scheme.
5.) All Tan Desert Camouflage.

You'll note that the civilian graphics don't have a top turret. :p

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I'm just a "straight up" baseline game player, though this mod has intrigued me over the years. That being said, does this mod have and build onto the ARADO 234 BLITZ? The 234B-2 being the definitive operational model to see combat before the wars end. it was classified as a single seat reconnaissance bomber and would have been operational around Sep/Oct 1944 with 214 total models built.

Some quick facts: Powerplant: 2 Junkers Jumo 109-004B-1 Orkan (Hurricane) turbojets. Speed: 461mph@19,685ft./438mph@sea level. Armament: 2 Defensive aft firing fuselage mounted 15.1mm MG 151 or 20mm MG151/20 cannons with 250/200 rounds per gun respectively. Offensive bomb load 2,204lbs/3,307lbs with rocket assist "drop" motors. Range: based on previous corresponding bomb loads 1,013 miles/684 miles. It had a high ceiling and was a very advanced plane to include a fully functional pilot ejection seat system. If needed or wanted I have all the rest of the specs as well. It's just you never hear about this one because it wasn't as "exciting" as the Me-163 KOMET (COMET) or the Me-262 SCHWALBE (SWALLOW).

Let me know in the meantime I think I'll check into something elsewhere. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

It's more fun with Pics:
Attachment 14153 Attachment 14154

Attachment 14155 Attachment 14156

Attachment 14157

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

That German jet bomber is in WinSP WW2 for sure.

Like most of the advanced weapons the Germans were working on late in the war it was a case of too little and too late and with not enough fuel to use it much in any case.

One of the interesting things about a Mod like this is in a Germany without Hitler and the Nazis, Germany can make sane strategic and operational choices (tactics the Germans always did well). Also Germany need not lose a lot of very good brains due to their religion/race and some scientific/technical projects might go a bit faster for them than they did in reality.

For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).

As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I hope that RecruitMonty will be happy to see his interesting mod generating discussion and interest on here. I very strongly suspect the more interest and discussion the more people might take a look at and use the mod...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Question for Tank experts (me I was an Infantry soldier):

There is a sort of link from WWII British Tanks, that spent much of the war out gunned and out Armoured by German Tanks, to the Centurion -just too late for WWII- Chieftain and even, to some degree, Challenger tanks of the British Army.

What I mean is that a tank is a trade off between fire power, armour and mobility and British post war tanks, at least until Challenger, always went for fire power and armour at the expense of mobility. To me that makes sense as a result of British WWII experience, especially US Shermans and Cromwells v Tigers and Panthers in 1944-45. (Incidentally the British gave the US a fair number of Sherman Fireflys with the excellent British 17 pd gun, in a sort or reverse lend lease, but the US Army never used them largely due, it seems, to a US bias against non US kit).

So my question is if there is any such link between the German Panther of WWII and the post war Leopard and Leopard II? Or was the gap in German tank production too long?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Tank (and aircraft) production is never as easy as it seems on paper.

Sure you can whip up a set of blueprints in a few days/weeks and a prototype in a few months. But then the fun begins. Manufacture. It takes time to build a factory, and will the output from that factory be sufficient, do you have access to the material and manpower needed. Post war development runs into the problem of can you get the money.

The WW II Panther was a great tank on the battlefield but suffered from severe mechanical problems due to design flaws. Read up on the road march to Kursk, three of them self destructed due to internal fires and nearly half broke down. The Sherman was mechanically very reliable and easily a match for the Pz III and IV that make up the vast majority of the German forces. A typical case of is it better to have one great tank or ten mediocre ones.

As to a link between the Panther and the post war Leopard ... everyone learned from the design of the T-34, which the Panther was based on, so indirectly the Leopard was a direct result of the Panther, but not in the way most people would think. Tank (and aircraft) design, like any other sort, learns and benefits from whats been done previously.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Yep, F35 anyone...

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May

Don

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Couldn't it be argued that the allies wouldn't have had the Bomb at all without the research, materials and knowledge of the German scientists they "coerced" into helping after V-E day?

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

Here's my attempt at a Ju 290 (with LBMs included), plus some LBMs for the 252.

The 290 has a 95m3 cargo bay with about 52.5m2 of loading area.

This compares with the roughly 140m3 cargo bay and 51.37 m2 loading area of a C-130.

Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
 

I think the ideal post-war German transport (as a starting point) would be the Arado 232A/B series:

LINK

Ten were built and used during the war to shuttle parts from plant to plant inside Germany in an operational transport role.

----------

Any discussion on post-war Nazi Germany's military has got to incorporate the fact that more so than other nations, there were independent satrapies within the state hierarchy operating as they mostly saw fit; e.g. the SS state within a state.

While every nation has a bit of this with favored contractors (Boeing for heavy jet bombers for the USAF), the Germans went a bit overboard with it.

With tanks alone, you've got:

Henschel
Krupp
Porsche
Daimler Benz
MAN

And parts might be mixed and matched from various manufacturers to get what they wanted -- e.g. Krupp turret and Henschel hull (Tiger I), while manufacturers might order production expecting the order (Porsche Tiger), only to be left having to find a use for them (remanufactured into Ferdinand/Elefants).

Peacetime development would alleviate a lot of this craziness by reducing the pressure on design teams; but it'd still be there.