Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

what are the chances to have the AI's build and use battlestations, fortresses on wormholes??? or is this something that is coded into SEIV? would be nice to have ai use this, makes it a leettle bit tougher on a human just barreling thru only his mines and a few sats http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If it can be done, please let it be more then just 1 or 2, at least important systems. Glad your updating Cuppa AI, it was very weak.... Oh and don't forget to let them build at least some monitors and supermonitors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Good mod, keep up the good work

just some ideas Mac

[ February 01, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">effectively none, sorry. I'd like to see this, too. At least for some AI. But even if it did work (and it might by very slim chance, using space yard ships), it would be very erratic and only 1 or 2 bases here and there. Unfortunately the AI is very poor strategically. It cannot identify key systems and/or choke points.

[ February 01, 2004, 13:33: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

just to keep those who are interested up to date:

* updated standard formations form the stock game
* added more positions to the custom formations (Hard Flanks, Dark Wing, Cube, etc)
* changed values for Massive Planetary Shield Generator (ruins tech)
* reduced cost for Emotionless trait
* reduced cost for Advanced Power Conservation trait
* reduced cost for Mechanoids trait
* added new ruins tech (ancient atmospheric processors)
* added new ruins tech (gravity field inducers)

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

The GHB got all that, and it's only 10K? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif And what's wrong with "Space Yard - Ship"? It's a spaceyard you mount on a ship... having it alphabetically close to Space Yard - Base makes it easier to compare the two in the F1 components list... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Speaking of the monster pictures, though, I think the monster battlecruiser pics are really fleets... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

The GHB is a nearly completely useless weapon in stock SE4. It is expensive to research, the prereqs are expensive, and it does much poorer damage than everything else, especially beyond range 1. It needs a big boost! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

How about looking at how the computer adjusts to the formations? Currently it does tend to jumble up the ships (in tactical combat) only part of the fleet will be in the formation/s and the rest bunch up in the back. tks

just some ideas mac

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

That is completley a function of the number of slots in the formation used, not much you can do but increase the slots. But you can not have more than 101 slots, so larger fleets have some jumbling. And I think Rollo already mentioned that he added more slots to some formations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, the GHB needed a boost. It does cost more now, afterall.
There have been many confusion about the two SY types. The name change will make it easier to tell them apart.
The BC picture is the fleet picture on purpose. It only shows during race setup (BC being the preview for the shipset), since there are no monsters that use the BC portrait.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, I updated all the formations. In fact I did add some more slots today and altered some of the default formations.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Hey Rollo, I was going to write you an email with some thoughts on space monsters, but I think posting here will be better - more people to discuss things with.

I would like to see some more challenging space monsters. You did a really good job on them, and they are pretty tough as it is, but they could be harder. Maybe create a second monster race with the improvements, and leave the current one as-is. that way, people can choose which to play with.

Here is what I am thinking:

1 - Move the sector cloak ability to the monster facilities. I am pretty sure that it will work on them (tested it a few Versions back) and this will make sure that all monster planets have the cloak, even without bases. this is important if you are going to:

2 - allow the monsters to colonize. not to hard, just give them a generic colony component that can hit any colony type. give the colony component cloaking ability (regular cloak, no supply use, not sector cloak.) so that the colony ship cant be shot down or captured. I think the AI can handle cloaks on colony ships, and will uncloak before attempting to colonize. if not, give it a high enough sector cloak to avoid being seen, but a high enough sensor to see through its cloak and colonize target planets. (i ran into trouble trying to colonize with a sector cloak, because i could not see the planet i was trying to colonize).

3 - put spaceyards on those space stations! increase the monster production capacity!

a long time ago there was a discusion about this next idea. I dont remember who first came up with it, but its still a darn good idea:

4 - stick planetary and system shield abilities on the monster facilities. this makes them indestructable. now create a sensor component that can see through monster cloaks, and put it on a ship design that is possible (but difficult) to capture. you can either make the player used the captured ship as a sensor, or allow them to analyze it for the technology.

you can capture, analyze, and use racial technologies if it is setup right. if a component requires technology A, and technology A requires technology B, where tech B is racial and tech A is not, then anyone can analyze the component - if i remember correctly.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It only works if you save the game, quit, and then reload. The next SE4 patch should make them work without the need to reload. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

ah.. for a new game, it shouldnt matter - right? and simultanious games are saved/quitted/reloaded every turn, so....

I dont mean the 'cloaking' ability that has some sort of issue with the cloaking icon appearing for planets, i mean the 'sector cloaking' storm ability, which is always-on.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey Puke, I have considered all of these ideas in the past and tested some of them. Let me reply to each of them in some more detail:

1 - I tried cloaking facilities. Didn't work for me (*shrugs). That's why I did the workaround with the bases. I admit that I tested this with a rather old Version (I think before gold patch 1), could be it is working now.

2 - giving the monsters colonization is easy enough, but can be problematic. If the monsters get tech via ruins for example, it cannot only screw up their designs, but also it could mean that they are able to use tech they are not supposed to have. You really don't wanna have the monsters use offensive intel for example.

3 - yes, I have used that in the past. In fact the monster space yard is still in the components.txt file. I think the earliest Version of the monsters used them and proved too overwhelming. If you like that, it is easy to add back in.

4 - For several reasons I like the monster planets 'out of the game'. Obscene production of intel points for one reason. These things should never fall into the hands of a human player. I tested the capture of space monsters and tech analysis and it does work fine. However, I like the fact that monsters can't be captured, because they can be abused too much (for example as mobile quantum reactors for the players fleets).

bottom line: I like all these ideas, just not for the way the monsters currently work (well, except for the SY idea. That one is easy enough to do and has no adverse effects other than making the monsters a real b..ch to fight against).
However, all these ideas would work great for another monster race that acts more a swarm: colonization, huge numbers, tough ground troops, planet invasions, just heaps and heaps of critters that threaten to swallow up the whole quadrant. I did want to add a 2nd race like that, but have not found the time yet to do it. It is definately on the list of things I want to do at some point.
As for additional stuff to the current monsters I'd like even bigger and badder monsters, rather than an increase in numbers or colonization. There is a pretty big gap between the big monsters (dragons) and the huge worms that can be filled with some new and nasty designs.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

I'm confused whether these are changes in the most recent released Version (1.70???), or if these are changes that are going to be released soon.

I'm starting in a game today, using DevNull + PvK Balance, and want to make sure I got the right Version!

Thanks!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

They are changes that will be in the next release Version. A teaser if you will.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The current Version 1.70 has not changed.

These changes are in the Version that is currently under development (1.71 or 1.80; not sure yet, if it is compatible with old saves). That Version won't be released any time soon. Not before the Last SE4 patch anyways.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought the guy that did the Space Monsters vs the Galactic Patrol mod had sucessfully dont cloaking facilities? I think he had a monster 'swarm' too, maybe his code can be re-used? if its still around.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Cloaking facilities work, except that you have to save, close and reload the game after one is built in order to enable the cloaking buttons. This is not an issue in PBEM games, but it is in SP. The next patch will fix this and allow them to work fine without needing to reload the game.

[ February 10, 2004, 01:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, but normal cloaking via the button is not good enough. The monster planets need a sector cloak.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

I tried sector cloak on a facility. Doesn't seem to work.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Will you be incorporating the new smoothed pop. settings into Devnull's extended pop. settings?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Rollo, you missed several turns in Devnull4bis, while the game is at a critical stage.

What's going on ?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

I'd like to see DevNull updated for the most recent SE4 Gold patch. But I seem to recall Rollo deciding to quit Space Empiring - is this true???

If so, is there anyone "officially" in charge of the mod?

If not, does anyone care if I take over and put out an update???

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

I do not believe anyone is officially in charge, and Rollo has stated on numerous occassions that the mod is open to public domain. However, I do recall Rollo mentioning that he had been working on it... perhaps try to get whatever he had updated from him first?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Would anyone mind if I updated Devnull? Here is what I have done so far. What do you think?

Version 1.71
19.05.2005:
* Changed - Added in Imperator Fyron's smoothed population modifiers.
* Fixed - The Create and Destroy Storm components are now destroyed on use.
* Fixed - Added more slots to all of the formations to keep ships together better in combat. New formations thanks to Imperator Fyron.
* Changed - Anti-Fighter Missile range/damage and chance to hit. Here is a poll.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Please do - It would be a real shame for this mod to stagnate.

Could you also correct the repair rates of temporal spaceyards? ( the figures are correct in the descriptions, but wrong in the Ability Val field)

If your updates are loaded onto PBW, will it be possible to update an existing game to use it?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

It is possible, given the order of component within the modfiles do not change.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

When I asked Rollo about an update several months back, he said he was planning something. But I think he ran out of leisure time for SE4, so you should go ahead with your changes.

I'll let a few other DevNull players know about this thread, so you can get some more feedback.

Thanks for doing this!

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Hey Parabolize,

I'm glad Devnull isn't dying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I kind of like your Anti-Fighter Missile changes. After playing a bunch of Devnull games, it always felt like fighters were powerful in the early game but lost value in the middle to late game. I like that you reduce the damage and range on the early components, but is there a reason why you increase damage and slightly reduce range on the later components?

Thanks again!

PS - A year or two ago, Spoon and I had some other change ideas for Devnull. I'll try and dig them up and post them here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Agreed, anti-fighters weapons definitly needs to be nerved. Population modifers are a very good idea as well. Other than that i really like the Devnull Mod. Im playing a pretty great game on pbw right now, if i stumble upon anything i will let you know.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Done, though I am a bit wary of what this might do to high tech games.

The range on level 4 did make them powerful but half the time they would be shooting something off screen. So I lowered the range and made up for it in damage.

I am thinking about updating devnull's SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt. Rollo made parts of these text files stock other parts FQM 1.13. The FQM parts really need a upgrade to 1.22 but editing around Rollo's files is a pain. Considering FQM has stock-like maps in it (with some extra abilities) would anyone mind if I flat-out replaced the text files with FQM 1.22?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

I think the changes still leave the anti-fighter missile much too powerful. The range is still far too great. To me, point defense implies shooting down threats right on top of you. An in-your-face, short range defense. The current AFM and the proposed still allow a fighter to be shot at twice before it even gets close enough to loose its own guns.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Sounds good to me.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

For the planets, you'd have to make extra effort to make sure the Extra Huge planets and Stellar Moons remain in the game. I'm not sure if this would mean modifying the FQM files or not.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Yeah, spoon is right, i almost forgot. Hopefully Fyron can tell us, im out of modding since months.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

As long as the FQM STD secttype.txt and planetsize.txt files, which are just the stock files, are not copied over, those should be fine. Artificial planets are constructed via items in components.txt and the extra huge planet is still a "huge" sized planet as far as SystemTypes.txt is concerned.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

An addendum about the stellar moons:

I see that they are an ancient ruins tech. That ability needs to be added as a possibility to stellarabilitytypes.txt. But the actual tech, components, and planet entries should be fine.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Anyone second that?

The Extra Huge planets work. Here is whats done so far:
Version 1.71
19.05.2005:
* Changed - Added in Imperator Fyron's smoothed population modifiers.
* Fixed - The Create and Destroy Storm components are now destroyed on use.
* Fixed - Added more slots to all of the formations to keep ships together better in combat. New formations thanks to Imperator Fyron.
* Changed - Anti-Fighter Missile range/damage and chance to hit.
* Fixed - Temporal Space Yard Facility Component Repair.
* Changed - SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt to FQM Standard 1.22
* added - ruins tech: artificial stellar moon to the new StellarAbilityTypes.txt

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

For the Anti-Missile change, I think the changes should be a little more even and reduce their power across all components. Below is a table of what you are proposing to change. I've also added a row that would be what I would propose.

AF I
Old: Range 6, Damage 50, Weapon Modifier 80
New: Range 4 (-33%), Damage 40 (-20%), Weapon Modifier 60 (-26%)
Unco: Range 4 (-33%), Damage 37 (-26%), Weapon Modifer 60 (-25%)

AF II
Old: Range 8, Damage 65, Weapon Modifier 90
New: Range 5 (-38%), Damage 50 (-23%), Weapon Modifier 70 (-22%)
Unco: Range 5 (-38%), Damage 49 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 67 (-26%)

AF III
Old: Range 10, Damage 80, Weapon Modifier 100
New: Range 7 (-30%), Damage 100 (+20%), Weapon Modifier 60 (-25%)
Unco: Range 6 (-40%), Damage 60 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 75 (-25%)

AF IV
Old: Range 12, Damage 100, Weapon Modifier 110
New: Range 10 (-17%), Damage 125 (+25%), Weapon Modifier 90 (-18%)
Unco: Range 8 (-33%), Damage 75 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 83 (-25%)

In regards to the system, stellar and quadrant changes, what exactly does this do? I'm not familar with the FQM mod.

Thanks!

Unco

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

If you use the "classic" quadrants, the only difference will be some extra ability possibilities on stellar objects and added abilities to the Gold system types that were nothing but pictures in stock SE4 (such as organic infestaions, which cause random movement and damage to your ships). If you use a FQM quadrant, there will be more moons and actual belts of asteroids (unless you select a "No AST" quadrant type). FQM adds many new options for quadrant types, including various relative levels of warp points and planet densities across systems. I'd recommend loading up FQM (standard) and checking out a few maps.

The version of FQM included in Devnull is/was in dire need of updating.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Speaking of warp points, Im not sure which of the many mods I loaded that popped in tons of new warp points and descriptions for them but I wish they were abit more specific. There is lots of variety but effects (damaging, worthless shields, etc) dont seem to tie in to specific images. The planet images give some idea of what you will get when you examine it further but the warps seem random. Are we stuck with that?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

There is a problem with the retrofit cost. Retrobuilding ships is CHEAPER than building them. I don't know about you but I hate spending 30 minutes building all the retrofit classes. Considering training takes 20 turns I don't think we need the lower cost to encourage retrofitting. Are the 1.71 rates below OK with you?

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps
Devnull1.70:= 70
Devnull1.71:= 120
Stock:= 120
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal
Devnull1.70:= 10
Devnull1.71:= -30
Stock:= 30

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

For Comp Removal, did you mean to put 1.71 at +30 or -30?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

-30. Sell the old parts. Mostly I set it that way so upgrading would still be cheap like devnullicus(?) wanted it. I doubt anybody really wants to retrobuild everything.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

If there is to be a chance to get 1.71 on the SE4 deluxe CD I need to send it now. I tested everything and uploaded to pbw and se.net. I might make a 1.72 but I would like to see the Devnull Mod in good condition on the CD.

Download

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

You can always add an update after the fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The people who get the mod on the D-CD can then visit your website and update to the current version.

Looks like the image mod is not going to be on the CD... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Oh well. I look forward to the influx of new players and their confuse over how to install the image mod.

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

So, will the upgrade be used in pbw ?

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Would PBW admin please list 1.71? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion
 

Is it possible to upgrade an already in progress PBW Devnull game from 1.7 to 1.71?