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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Perhaps PDCs should be split into two comps, one that targets seekers and one that targets fighters. The fighter one would then not have the auto-fire ability. The biggest thing that makes fighters impotent is that PDC is much longer ranged than their weapons, AND it always hits them before they ever get a chance to fire (except in some WP battles, but those are an exception). Fighter weapons should be kept short ranged. Making the PDC not auto fire will make them at least get a chance to fire before being slaughtered.
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Geoschmo |
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PvK |
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*sigh*
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At 8hp/kT, shields are clearly still better overall, but at least a couple slabs of armor wouldn't be pointless. Also note, I'm advocating improvements to the Shield Regenerators (10kT size, regenerate 10xlevel per round -- it's what I did in Small Ships). That inherently makes shields more attractive. Got 100kT of space for shields and armor? One shield, one emissive armor, two standard armors, and two regenerators. With my proposed changes to shields and regenerators, that's 500 nonphased (or 250 phased) shields, +100/turn regeneration, and decent armor behind those shields. Or, if you're facing a crystalline race, two shields and two regenerators. 1000 shields (or 500 phased), with +100/turn regeneration. Or, against a shield-skipping-weapon user, go with two emissives and eight standard armors. Lots of non-shield HP to sustain the Emissive-Armor goodness. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Besides, it seems to me there is balance between armor and shields in the unmodded game. PPB and SD are powerful standard-tech counters to shields. The only armor counters are Shard Cannon (low-damage expensive racial tech) and Null-Space (expensive, low damage, low range, low ROF). Armor balances itself by being relatively weak protection, but it is still somewhat useful in some cases. Moreover, racial armors can be effective.
I wouldn't object to some changes to armor to make it a little stronger, but I think trying to make it competitive vs. shield effects would be overcompensating and changing the design. As for Emissive Armor, in most cases it isn't very useful, and it is expensive. One suggestion would be to increase its structure (say, to 80kT), which wouldn't do a whole lot but would at least make it as good as standard armor discounting the emissive effect. It would also give players a way to make tougher armored ships, albeit at significant expense. Shield REgenerators are pretty pointless as is. Reduce the cost and/or increase the effect a lot. There is little danger of them becoming uber-defenses when they are high on the tech tree and there are shield-smashing weapons around (not to mention the destruction rate in fleet combat). One topic we haven't touched on is mounts. The AI always uses them, so they can't be balanced to the point where unmounted weapons are as good or better in some cases. There are several options available, but I'm not sure which if any of them would be acceptable for this mod. That is, many changes to make them more balanced would change the gameplay/design. One simple subtle thing might be to remove the advantage to structure of mounts. That'd also help make armor more valuable by comparison. That is, currently unmodded gives more of an advantage to structure than the size increase, meaning big weapons increase the durability of the ship. PvK |
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Shield Regenerators do help prevent ship capture & such, since your ship will almost always have some shielding left.
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I think lowering the damage on the PPB would make other weapons more attractive, but the same thing could be accomplished by reworking the other weapons. There should be one weapon with the best damage / (tonnage * rate), but it should be the one without all the other goodies, like superior range, low supply usage, to-hit, and other special abilities. For this one, best, all-around weapon I think you could just tool-up the DUC, make it the moderate range heavy D/TR. Make PPB a little more specialized, maybe lower its D/TR. Make APB the long-range moderate D/TR direct fire weapon that this game is more-or-less lacking, you might need to add a to-hit bonus just to make it actually hit things at those long ranges and that's all the more reason to lower it's D/TR. Or maybe we already have this long range, better to-hit, moderate D/TR in the WMG, and the APB is meant to be used a moderate ranges, it just penalized the heck out of you for misusing it... I'm not going to try to address the other entries on Taera's List, but I do think Shield Regenerators need to be fixed. (Or maybe someone just needs to tell me how they're meant to be used.) I think Armor is fine, except for maybe the way the AI treats it. But then the AI designer should be able to call for Emissive, and it's the best non-Racial protection offered. [ July 28, 2003, 12:47: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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The problem is emissive dosen't stack.
What you really want is one emissive to give the effect, and lots of standard armors to absorb what's left... AI, when given a call for armor, will pick the one with the highest tech requirements, furthest down the list in components.txt All the other armors have a special ability to call for, so the reccommended change is to move the standard armor down in the file, and add copies of S.A. III that have tech levels 4 through 6. Given the above, a token improvement for levels 4 to 6 would look better than exact duplicates. [ July 28, 2003, 13:03: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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Instead of adjusting current armor, wouldn't it just be easier to add 1 or 2 more levels with the increased strength/tweaks, or add a new type or two of armor in the general catagory?
just some ideas Mac |
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If you don't, can you find me anyone who does? |
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Regarding balancing PDC's. Someone mentioned a long time ago, don't know if it was brought up in this thread or not, one way to balance the PDC would be to decrease it's range. That way at least you have to use a few on each ship, like the AI does anyway, instead of a few dedicated PDC ships covering the whole fleet. Does this seem like an AI friendly change? And is someone going to tell me it's in the Devnull mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Geoschmo |
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If you don't, can you find me anyone who does?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I personally do use them, but I'm a defense nut. You recall the story of the Avenger? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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Usually such ships end up in one end of the battle while my other ships get slautered by missiles few sectors away. Making ships to stay in formation helps but it introduce even more troubles. Now I simply put extra PDC on every ship just to be safe ! |
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geo i have them lose damage as the range increases up to 50% at the final range
and doubled the cost of research. and as extra balance increased the damage resistance of the seekers alittle. It seems to work quite well in testing As missles do hit as compaired to stock |
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Why a reduction at range rather than a flat reduction?
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Of course putting some on every ship works too. Geoschmo |
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sj preference....
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PD thoughts:
For a simple balance mod, I don't think it's necessary to remove the existing interesting choice and trade-offs between PD ships and PD on every ship. Current suggestion: 1) Use the new settings.txt entry for Seeker Defense Bonus to give seekers a chance to get through PD. I suggest about 60%, though this will get stomped by ships training and deploying Combat Sensors stacking with the PD bonus. Maybe for higher levels, the seeker damage resistance could be increased, and/or have the PDC damage taper off at range as Tesco mentioned. 2) Increase the effect of Small ECM for fighters. The unmodded game has it at +10/+20/+30, which gets outstripped by ships with +65 Combat Sensors +20 Ship Training +20 Fleet Training. Ideally, fighter defenses would be able to keep up via research, perhaps by giving Afterburners a defense bonus, adding more ECM levels, increasing the ECM levels' effects, and/or adding other defensive components for fighters (e.g. stealth/scattering armor?). By adding stuff at the end of the tech tree, it won't make fighters dominate low-tech ships. However, for this mod, it's hard to add stuff without seeming to re-do things. Personally, to make up the +70 advantage of high-tech ships, I'd split the Troop and Fighter Versions of Small ECM (to avoid causing balance problems with troops), and then make fighter Small ECM give +20/+40/+60, and then give Afterburners +10/+20/+30 defense. PvK [Edit: TDM->Tesco] [ July 29, 2003, 21:58: Message edited by: PvK ] |
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4 days later and nothing is decided! Ha Ha Ha!
Some good ideas throughout, but who is going to start making some decisions? |
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Any more comments on Point Defense? or the Talisman?
Would a significant defense penalty on the Talisman be a good idea? How about The Hyper-optics/Anti-cloak sensors? Perhaps a larger cost or size for non-racial sensors? How much should Climate Control Facilities be improved? What should be done with intel ops? Summary Unsorted Issues </font>
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Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 40 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[/list] [ July 30, 2003, 22:45: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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How small were you thinking for these two items:
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Probably around 10%
If anybody is strongly against any of the items, feel free to speak up. I'll run them all by Aaron before implementing it. |
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For intel, if nothing else, I really think you should curb Comm Mimic and Food Contamination. For torpedoes, I'd increase the bonus to hit to more like 30% (and not change the amount of damage.) Everything else looks fine. |
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Geoschmo [ July 30, 2003, 03:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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That also might be an irrelevant issue for others. If savegames have to be made incompatible, then that should not be a stopping factor IMO. MM could include a "non-balanced" mod folder that people could use to play old games they want to keep playing in the patch...
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Almost any change will affect savegames. I will email it all to Aaron to see what he likes.
Only really big things like racial traits make the save unloadable... Moving components will make some saves unusable. Changing research costs would make some saves unfair. Only the most trivial changes will not affect savegames at all. |
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Rollo |
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Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To keep compatibility with saves (which is of major importance IMO) you can do the following to make the armor AI friendly: add redundant tech requirements to Armor III, so the AI think it is the best armor to use. Instead of: Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Armor Tech Level Req 1 := 3 use this: Number of Tech Req := 3 Tech Area Req 1 := Armor Tech Level Req 1 := 3 Tech Area Req 2 := Armor Tech Level Req 2 := 3 Tech Area Req 3 := Armor Tech Level Req 3 := 3 The AI will then value this armor higher as any other, since it requires 9 tech levels. No moving of components would be needed. Rollo |
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Rollo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably. I did put it in quotes for a reason. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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Rollo:
Very good idea, and moves the armor fix down to a trivial change. |
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In my mod, I made it 10KT armor, so that you can take it out with the first non shield hit. Temporary blessing. Otherwise, treat it as an improvement to Sensor III: Either Stackable + 20% or Nonstackable +85%. I think that this would make Religious still worth taking as you get a modifer no one else gets. Combine this with War and Death shrines and they will still be tough advesaries, but no longer untouchable. This would take away my biggest complaint with the Talisman: Range does not matter, which makes it a +1000% to hit and at least a +50% to defense by hanging out a long range. [ July 30, 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: LGM ] |
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Make the Quantum Reactor act like a juiced up supply container. Something like Supply III times 10 or 20. After that, it needs to go to a resupply base to re-engergize it.
Someone else did this in their mod. The AI mod, I think. The drawback, is that as it become depleted, it would draw supply out of ships with higher percentages of supply that joined the fleet. Using these would increase a fleets range of operations, but a successful sortie on a fleet's Quantum Reactor ships could have a devistating effect. A 20% QR would in this scenario supply the fleet for many turns. However, lose that QR and each ship is carrying only 20%, that means about 2 or 3 turns of movement. However, all of this might make for interesting game situations. Ship Bomb operations against QR ships could be devistating. Suggestion: Make Resupply Tech a little cheaper. [ July 30, 2003, 18:22: Message edited by: LGM ] |
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But seriously, the Relic is not just an object housed in the ship, at fifty kilotons it is a whole shrine, built into the ship. And certain things must sit in certain ways inside the shrine, they must not be disturbed. This makes the ship less maneuverable, and lowers defense. |
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Make Ship defense penalties graduated: Cruisers 0%, Battle Cruisers 10%, Battleships 20%, Dreadnaughts 30%, Baseships 40%.
Consider giving Weapon Mounts Range and ToHit bonuses for Satellites. +1/+2/+3 Range, +10/+20/+30%. Do this for ships too, but only if you weaken weapon Mounts in some other way such as below. Decrease the efficiency bonus ratios for Weapon Mounds (Damage Mult/Size Mult). Current bonus ratios are 1.33, 1.5, 1.67 for ships. Make the ratios more like 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3. Do not change the size or cust multiplier, just the damage multiplier. For example, Make Damage 1.65 times for Large Mount instead of 2 times. 1.65/1.5 = 1.1 efficiency. [ July 30, 2003, 18:31: Message edited by: LGM ] |
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Geoschmo [ July 30, 2003, 18:46: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Pulling out the quantum reactor ability is a pretty big change.
Setting the cost down to a relatively small amount, and perhaps reducing its size to 10kt would make the AI vs Humans use of the QR fairer with a minimum of AI side effects. And I'd have to agree that Talisman and Realism don't mix http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Anything goes for something like that. [ July 30, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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Temporal/Psychic: half the size and costs -> 20kT and 750/0/250 Hyper Optics: double the cost (3000/0/1000) Gravitic sensor: no changes Tachyon sensor: level 3 tachyon sensor scanning level from 4 to 5 -> the only sensor which see through the red system-wide storm. Level 5 scanner will also see mines though in their description says it prevents level 5 scans. Perhaps mines' cloaking should be rised. Btw supply storage, ship training and one-resource bonus facilities should removed from unsorted issues. What if the ship training facility is changed to system wide and only 1% per turn at every level? Only max training increases. These are also posted before but I think they're ignored http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If they're poor suggestions I'd like to even hear it. </font>
[ July 30, 2003, 20:18: Message edited by: Asmala ] |
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And I still think the following mentioned earlier is a trivial change to help future AI's: Add a second dummy ability to Resupply Depots to enable them to be called for in both a system wide capacity and a individual planet capacity. Rollo, SJ, PvK, what do you think of this change? [ July 30, 2003, 22:39: Message edited by: cybersol ] |
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So a 300kT Destroyer would get a +10% or +20% ECM bonus; a 500kT Cruiser would get -10% or -20%. At the extreme ends, the Escort (150kT ... three mass incremetns underweight) gets a +15% to +30% defense bonus; the Dreadnought, at 1000kT, is 600kT "overweight", earnign it a -60% or -120% defense penalty, and the Baseship (at 1500kT) is 500kT evewn MORE overweight, giving it a -110% or -220% defense penalty. The benefits of this are that it's intuitive and follows a pattern. The actual modifier per mass-increment can be altered for certain classes of ship (i.e., all transports may have a worse ECM modifier ... all carriers may have a better ECMmodifier than their mass might otherwise indicate ... etc). |
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AFAIK: 1) The AI will automatically build one per system, guaranteed. 2) The AI will follow the build instructions for planets including any calls for resupply depots. AI modders, what say you? |
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[quote]Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
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2) once a resupply is built, the AI will ignore further calls in this system So yes, the AI treats Resupply Depots as a system wide ability. Not sure if it can be tricked into building more by adding a bogus ability. I never tried. Which begs the question, cybersol: Why would you like to have the AI build more than one depot in a system? Just curious. |
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Hope this better explains what I was thinking. Quote:
All around it was a minor frustation I ran into, much less annoying than the armor issue. It would be really great if the armor fix gets into wide public use. Have you suggested the armor fix to Mephisto for possible TDM inclusion as well? Back in the day it contained some minor data mods to help the AI (dummy research tech for instance). [ July 30, 2003, 23:39: Message edited by: cybersol ] |
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With the talisman-supersensors I meant that the AI cannot use multiple offensive sensors (only takes the best AFAIK). This gives the player an unfair advantage. |
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Rollo |
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Very well, just wanted to make sure.
Emergency Resupply sounds like an excellent choice for the ability, though. |
Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod
Summary
Unsorted Issues - Fighters & Missiles too weak / PDC to powerful - Climate Control Facilities too weak - Medical Lab plague prevention effect too low - Talisman too powerful - Quantum Reactors too powerful - PDC, PPB too powerful - Torpedoes, Graviton Hellbore, Incinerator, too weak. - Ship Training too powerful - Not enough room for Weapon Platforms - High level Intel ops too effective - All of the new damage types not used - Fighter Rocket pods -> Seekers? Trivial Changes: - Add redundant tech requirements to Standard armor allowing AIs to call for it in design creation. - Reduce Price of Quantum reactor to benefit AI - Separate Normal and Phased shields component family. (Split them in terms of "Show only latest" and the upgrade button) - Add ability descriptions for weapon to-hit bonuses Minor Changes: - Smoothing of low level PPB improvements as below. - Increase range of WMG & HEM to 10 - Improve efficiency of Supply Tanks relative to engines. (Decrease size? Increase storage?) Moderate Changes: - Make standard Training Facilities System-wide for the benefit of AIs. Psychic Trait Version trains 2/turn vs 1/turn for standard to keep it worthwhile. - Scale up damage of ROF 2 weapons - Increase Planetary shield strength by 5x - Graviton Hellbore changed to Skip All Shields - Double Effect of Shield Regenerators - Individual resource bonus facilities 50% more powerful than all-in-one facilities. - Small CS/ECM doubled in effect to keep up with ship-CS/ECM. - Small accuracy bonus for torpedoes (~10%) - Small accuracy penalty for PPB (~10%) Suggestions of note: - Phased Polaron Beam Average Adjustment [b]</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Research Cost: 15k Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 40 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> [ July 31, 2003, 02:26: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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