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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny...

My wife, who is working her "work-at-home" day, just called and said the cable was out. I walked her through powering the router and modem down, powering them up and had her tell me about the lights on the modem. It appeared the problem wasn't on our end. So, I told her she needed to call the cable company. She called me back in 15 minutes to say 2 things: (1) There was a tech on the way to the house and (2) it had suddenly started working again...so should she call and cancel or let the guy come and check it out.

Just pointing out how the cable companies have gone out of their way to get rid of the terrible service image they had years ago...while the phone companies, the "lessor gods", still have a "we'll get around to it" perspective.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By the time I cashed in our dialup and called for a cable install, they were running a "We'll have it installed with 24 hours or you'll get an additional month at no charge." campaign going. Mine took longer because I had them run a cable line to the computer room (where we didn't have an existing cable).

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The biggest advantage I could see service wise is that the cable company would be the only one working on it since it's their equipment at both ends and their cable in the middle. That has been the problem I know for me is getting the DSL company and the phone company to work together and solve the problem instead of tossing the ticket back and forth.

I looked at getting DSL from my local phone service provider, but they had too many limitations. Their service was designed for Users, not servers. They had a business account option but it was way too pricey.

Geoschmo

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I apoligize if we have any on-site install technicians here on the Forum, but I don't have much respect for that field.

Having worked the Tech Support side for 3 Cable Internet Providers (Rogers in Canada, and Roadrunner & Charter in the US) I've seen more abuse and horror stories than miracles and courtesy.

- Service interruptions Lasting weeks and months were regular enough that no one in our Call Centers were surprised, especially our Supervisors who wanted nothing to do with the customers or their "problems".

- I've had incompetant on-site Technicians call our Call Center for support becuase they didn't know what to do with the modem once they arrived at the Customer's house!

- If the technicians did install the modem but encountered a problem, they'd leave and tell the customer they'd be back out tomorrow, but of course they never did and the field notes they left for us to read had no explanation or diagnosis of the problem.

- Oh, and this bit of info is for any of you being serviced by Charter in California (like Fyron): Some of the install technicians like to bring their friends to work with them, along with booze (to make the work go by faster I guess). This isn't a one time occurance. I heard this from customers at least once a week, and from different parts of California. And if you don't get these idiots, you may get the install techs who bang on your door in a very threatening manner and intentionally (and rudely) intimidate the customer and their children. I only worked on the Charter contract for 6 months, but that company is Criminal in almost every area. I won't even bother describing their Sales policies (or lack of them) or support structures. It's mind-boggingly horrible.

Competent on-site Technicians are few and far inbetween. That's one of the reasons why I suggested you record the names and/or ID numbers of each person you have contact with. Use this info to get these techs in trouble. They've shown a lack of understanding of the issue and an unwillingness to follow through. Chances are the Supervisors are bigger idiots than the on-site people too.

These kind of shinnaigans are part of the reason I left my Tech Support job. When no one running these companies cares about the problems being brought to their attention on an hourly basis, then it's time to take my services elsewhere.

Moving onto a less aggrivating topic...

Right now I'm getting my DSL service from Bell Sympatico, and service-wise it's been fine. I've had maybe 2-4 outages in the 4 years I've been with them, and none of the outages Lasted longer than a couple of hours. Unfortunatley they keep raising the bill while not providing any improvments to the service. I'll be switching over to Rogers Cable soon for their Business Lite Service, which will allow me to setup a Server. Not to mention that i'll be paying less that what i'm paying now for Residential Service with Sympatico, and i'll get more webspace, more e-mail address, and more speed. And, for icing on the cake, my mother works for Rogers, so i'll be getting a discount on a Service that was already cheaper than my current one. Bell Canada can take their price hiking practice and cram it up their Nortel modems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Monopolies are actually anti-capitalistic because they eliminate competition, and that is what capitalism is based upon.

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I was thinking maybe you could cancle the DSL service and the next day have them reinstall it. Then since you are a new customer it might make them trouble shoot the DSL link.

As for the bad tech theory where do you think companies cut cost? an experienced tech makes about 40k a year while a new tech with little experience will work for 19K a year. It's all about cutting cost and raising productivity. And quality.
I have a friend that was one of the Database techs where we used to work and he clearly demonstrated that for x amount of Money you could have only 2 out of the three things a manufacture wanted. Quality, low manufacturing cost, reliablity. If you wanted all three then one of those things suffered. And corporations would allways take low cost before anything else. And that brings us to the current state of tech support. Companies can't afford quality techs but they can't afford not to give lip service to quality. And the Good techs are so over worked that they get disgusted and find some other line of work. It's the bean counters that are making things hard on the rest of us. (and lawyers and most politicians are lawyers)

[ August 16, 2003, 15:04: Message edited by: Gozra ]

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And, Gozra, one of the reasons you find yourself talking to tech support in India these days.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I won't name names, but one company we do support for kept horrible records, and ended up with a list of customers, a list of modems currently in use, and no connecting data between quite a few of the entries.
Guess which list was longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For the customers who were paying their bills, but the company didn't know which modem they were using, guess what happened...

Rather than calling the customer, and admitting they screwed up, or even just calling and asking to "double check" info while pretending nothing was wrong...
They just blocked all the modems!

The theory being that the customers will lose their service, call tech support and we will then take down the info the main office needs to fill out their records!

----

End Users can be very amusing as well:

User: "Hi, I can't seem to get on the internet"
(data looked up)
Tech: "Ok, our system dosen't see your modem... could you please reset it for me? Just unplug it, wait 5 seconds and plug it back in"
User: "Uhm, I don't think that's safe"
Tech: "... what do you mean?"
User: "Well, my basement's flooded and the modem is under water"
Tech: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

(Yes, Its all True, I was in the next cubicle over, trying not to laugh too loud http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[ August 16, 2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

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And I thought the construction industry's service policy was bad!

Several years ago I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what the industry is, the service is bad. Once they have your money, they ignore you like an embarrassing relative. Only the squeakiest wheels get the grease and then only to shut you up.

Geo has the right idea, squeaking at them every day, while exploring viable alternatives.

On rare occasion this obsession with minimal service can have an upside. Many years ago we cancelled our cable TV. After a week it was still in service so we called Shaw. They said not to worry, they were busy and would get around to the disconnect eventually. For the next year, we received free cable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I won't name names, but one company we do support for kept horrible records, and ended up with a list of customers, a list of modems currently in use, and no connecting data between quite a few of the entries.
Guess which list was longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For the customers who were paying their bills, but the company didn't know which modem they were using, guess what happened...

Rather than calling the customer, and admitting they screwed up, or even just calling and asking to "double check" info while pretending nothing was wrong...
They just blocked all the modems!

The theory being that the customers will lose their service, call tech support and we will then take down the info the main office needs to fill out their records!

----

End Users can be very amusing as well:

User: "Hi, I can't seem to get on the internet"
(data looked up)
Tech: "Ok, our system dosen't see your modem... could you please reset it for me? Just unplug it, wait 5 seconds and plug it back in"
User: "Uhm, I don't think that's safe"
Tech: "... what do you mean?"
User: "Well, my basement's flooded and the modem is under water"
Tech: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

(Yes, Its all True, I was in the next cubicle over, trying not to laugh too loud http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let me guess, AT&T?

Check this **** out, I saw an add this morning for ComCast Cable, formerly AT&T Broadband. They advertise that you can get lightening fast broadband at incredible speeds of 25X faster than 56k dial up. Last year it was a 50X. In 1998 when I signed up for it, it was 500X. Talk about the degrading of quality. I don't know who to feel sorrier for, the stupid customers who are dumb enought to buy the 25X faster service when local dial up is just as fast, or those who contintue to pay the $50.00 a month for fraction of what they once had.

When I gave up Comcast Cable Internet, my speeds were no faster than the dial up I am using now. Granted the uploads were a bit faster, but not by much. I used to be able to upload a 50 meg file to a web server or whatever in about 10 minutes, in the end, it would take an hour.

I have come to the conculsion that good things do not Last. Cellular service in the early 90's here was exceptional. Cellular One had the service and no matter where I was, I always had good signal. Then came AT&T, and they sub leased half of the tower away and there went the quality of the service. From this point we were inundated with other services ALL using the same sublet towers. Service now is incredibly bad here.

It is like this, you find something that is just awsome, say a nice wilderness area. Over time other people find it to. Eventually so many poeple come to this once pristeen place that a business buys the property and makes it into a pay sight.

This is happening all over with all technology. MS and Qwest had a deal with DSL, and I tried it a year ago. After a month of no service I called Qwest and was directed to MS who directed me back to Qwest who directed me back to MS. This went on and on and on and on for over a month without any one doing anything. Finally a bill came. I refused to pay it, and it went to collections. A second bill came, same thing as I had no service. Finally I filed a complaint with the AGO and presto, MS and Qwest were calling me with all the help I needed. The bills were creditted, and we had service. The service sucked horribly as we would have poor connectivity during the day, and good connectivity at night. It was not worth the $60 extra dollars we were paying for it. So I cancelled it. The one thing that really PMO was that I could not even play a game on line with it. They had some kind of firewall or block that prevented it. No hosting a game, no playing a game. It genuinely sucked ***.

Service in the Broadband industry is lacking. They hype there product to get new customers because there old customers are cancelling service. They must feed the machine so they keep making up lies and selling service that they know they cannot support.

Geo I do wish you the best of luck, and am hopeful that your problem will be resolved.

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ok someone posted a message that the host could run the game w/o PBW i'd like to start doing this. But...I'm not quite sure how to do it do I already have the necessary game files and all the players have to do is email me their turns?? plz say yes LOL

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I thought there was an extensive message on that already in this thread. I'll go take a look.

[edit]: Yeah, Samurai posted it about 5 screens down. I've done it before. Not hard to do. Just send a message to each of your players...and, I guess, make sure they want to do it that way (not sure why they'd disagree).

[ August 16, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: Slynky ]

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I have Cox Cable here in AZ, and while I have heard of people having problems, I have had very few myself. When I have had problems, their customer support has been excellent. From a performance standpoint, the network is faster now than when I signed up several years ago. Long story short, at least some providers are still coming through. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

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Thx for the directions to the how to post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (I got lost, you said five pages ago i assumed page 24 was page 1 and went to like nineteen or something along those lines anyway I've now read the whole thread twice [once as it was posted and once trying to find the place] and one quick unrelated question...how do I get new cooler avatars and how do I get promoted...that's two questions...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I think your avatar is pretty cool...but if you want to look around, there is a thread in here called "house of 1001 avatars' (or something like that). It's might be a page down or two.

I'm not a pro on promotions but I think it runs a promotion at 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000 Posts. After that, I don't know.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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4000 is the Last promotion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm signed up with Rogers cable here (~3yrs) who many people complain about, but my experience has just been like AK's to a tee, except I've never even required any customer service to this point! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

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I envy you both for having good service with your ISP's.

The progression of Cable Services

Cox Cable Mid 80's to early 85's - Never dealt with
Columbia Cable 85 (Est) to 97 Ok, good to their interns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
AT&T 97 to 2003 Ok at first, degenerated
ComCast 2003 Fricking horrible

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Too bad I can't place the PBW server at my work place at the Miami NAP (Network Access Point). We guarantee 100% power and connectivity and incredible bandwith, only hardware issues would be the only concern.

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I used to be on cable. Never had a problem.

Now I am on DSL. Never had a problem ( City not included )

Luck of the draw I am guessing

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i can't believe pbw is STILL down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

this is starting to get scary...
i really dont mind tooo tooo much since im on vacation, but i did bring my laptop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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It's tough to imagine that it took less time to get the power back on after such a giant cascade failure, then it's taking to get this DSL back!

As for my neck of the woods - I can't complain at all about my Comcast Broadband. Even the tech that was sent to install it was well trained. He even stayed to resolve a problem I was having with it.

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Okay, getting back on topic here.

I would like to send a message out to all those who have been holding up games all this time in hopes that PBW will be up soon. Guess what? It's not gonna happen that quickly. If they've been down this long they are likely to be down alot longer. The game admins can run the turns for everyone. What's the big deal? Are your fingers so lethargic that you cannot go through the extra effort of sending an email? This is a friendly plea to STOP HOLDING UP THE GAMES!

Geez, we all did fine without PBW before they existed and I can't believe that we can't play a game without them now that they have a long standing problem.

BTW, has it occured to anyone that they may be re-developing the entire system? They have had these issues a few times before.

P.S.
I am not looking for flame here but I have been in a game that has numerous people drop out and join and it's been held up much more than it's share. I am just tired of having to wait for months to continue a game that should have been finished by now.

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Actually... a lot of people did not play PBEM, and only got into MP after PBW came around...

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Well then to them I am saying that it IS possible to play without PBW. My point stands. But thanks for the info. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now why would the PBW team try to redevelop a system that's been working like magic for as long as anyone can remember?

"If it's not broken, then you're not trying"
Red Green

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you. I played PBEM before PBW. And when I ran a game at PBW (and it was down), I ran the turn manually at home and mailed them.

I suggested to the owners of the games I am in that they could be run manually but no one seems to have wanted to.

And I don't play against the AI. That ended long ago when I discovered PBW games and PBEM games.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's hard for me to argue this point effectively. I have to say that Tuesday will tell the tale. According to the DSL people they have checked everything everywhere. If the meeting between the DSL tech and phone company tech on Tuesday does not bear fruit I have no idea what the next step in the process will be.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If there is anyone out there that wishes to play there game PBEM and the owner is not willing to do so, let me know. I will offer to take the game over and run the turns myself. Either myself or someone else. If we have a group of players wanting to go and the only thinkg holding them up is a game owner, we can find a new game owner.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually this is the first extended DSL outage we have had. We've never been down longer then a day before for connection problems. The previous extended outages in PBW were due to hardware failures on our end.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say here. We area always looking at our options for teh future of PBW but we are not currently actively redeveloping it. It seems like you are suggesting that the DSL is not really down but we are pretending it is so we can do a redesign of the PBW server? If we ever redevelop PBW it will be done while PBW is up and running and we will switch to the new system once it's been tested and stuff. There is no reason to take the system down for weeks to do that, and certainly no reason for us to be less then honest about what we are doing.

It's unlikely that this thought would occur to anyone, as they would expect based on past experience we would be up front with them about what is going on.

Geoschmo

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly hope you wouldn't hijack someone's game without their permission...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Has it occured to you that maybe a lot of people that are hosting games on PBW do it only because hosting it on PBW takes very little time, whereas doing it via PBEM takes a lot more time? Not everyone has time or desire to go through the hassle of processing turns manually every time.

[ August 17, 2003, 21:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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There was only one extended down time of PBW (prior to this mess), and that was from hardware failure. The other downtimes were short ones, hardly anything to be complaining about for a free service.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's okay, because I am not looking for an argument. I want those who are holding up games to play, because it's hardly fair that we have to wait for months because they don't want to expend the small extra effort to email their turns to the admin.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The admins are not the only problem, and I am specifically addressing the players unwilling to send their turns.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My only purpose is to get the games played. Even if your issues (whatever they are) never get resolved there is life after PBW.

How many games were being run on your PBW system before it went down. Now think about how lazy most people are (sorry, can't think of a nice way to put it so I am being blunt so as not to be misunderstood). There are approximately how many games on hold simply because of a few lazy people.

Again, I am not looking to flame or to receive flame. Let's just get these games going. Once PBW is up and going again you can go back to your lethargic ways, I really don't care after that.

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[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

Quote:

Has it occured to you that maybe a lot of people that are hosting games on PBW do it only because hosting it on PBW takes very little time, whereas doing it via PBEM takes a lot more time? Not everyone has time or desire to go through the hassle of processing turns manually every time.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually no, because I am addressing the PLAYERS that refuse to send their turns into an admin who IS willing to go through the trouble. I did indicate this in my original post, Fyron.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cut it out Fyron, I am not looking for an argument or a guilt-trip. I want the players in my game to play the game or get out.

BTW, there was one extended down time that you remember.

[ August 17, 2003, 22:57: Message edited by: Gyphon ]

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Your Posts seemed to be talking about hosts not willing to process turns manually, not players not sending in plr files to hosts willing to do so.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cut what out? Attempting to put your complaints into perspective?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then you should have been more explicit in your Posts, as that is not what it looked like you were saying to me.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, there was one extended down time. It Lasted for a few months, and was due to hardware failure. I am not sure what you consider to be an extended down time... perhaps we should clarify that.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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Okay, Fyron... you asked for it. Next time READ the Posts. Following are quotes from me... feel free to double check them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the first post. There is nothing stating admins unwilling to run turns. I admit that I did not state explicity that it is the players I was talking about but any NORMAL mind could figure out that I meant the players.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OMG! Here I am actually being specific enough even for you, Fyron.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the previous mention was not enough to clue you in.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh oh... your firm grasp on reality is looking rather limp now.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The final indication that I am talking about the players. Listen, Fyron... don't debate this issue with me you are obviously ill equiped for it and the basic understanding of reason.

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Please remain civil Gyphon. You said you are not looking for a flame, but the tone of your latest Posts is starting to turn into one.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This right here is the gist of your first post on this. It does not mention players at all (and neither does the rest of that post), and an interpretation that you are talking about lazy hosts is equally valid as the interpretation that you are talking about lazy players.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Flame? Believe me if I intended to flame, you would be crying right now. I am being forceful with one who is unable to grasp my point. Also, I would be laying out a detailed theory to explain exectly why you are unable to.

Okay... looks like we have to tear this part and explain it for you.

"The game admins can run the turns for everyone."

Meaning a simple offering of information in order to get the point accross that one does not need PBW.

"What's the big deal? Are your fingers so lethargic that you cannot go through the extra effort of sending an email?"

See that? "an email". Meaning a single email from... oh lessee... A PLAYER? An admin sends multiple emails. Besides, I can't believe you are still pushing this issue after my generous quoting in my Last post.

Now drop it.

[edit] spelling correction[/edit]

[ August 17, 2003, 23:40: Message edited by: Gyphon ]

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Will you please step back and look at this from someone else's point of view? Again, either interpretation of your vague post is equally valid.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your not looking for a flame how about you stop insulting the game hosts. If you are getting so upset about not being able to play PBW for a couple weeks you really need to get a life.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your not looking for a flame how about you stop insulting the game hosts. If you are getting so upset about not being able to play PBW for a couple weeks you really need to get a life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not concerned with PBW. You guys keep missing that point, and I care not to repeat it yet again... you'll just ignore it again and go back to the original post.

Besides. I have stated, quoted and re-quoted often enough so that you people would understand BY NOW exactly what I was talking about. It's not my fault you are unwilling to let the original post go. You require no other information other then what I have given thus far and seeing as how you are unwilling and unable to take advantage of that I do not care to waste my time any longer. I have things I need to do and talking to walls is not one of them. Cya

*sigh*

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I have to agree with DavidG if your not looking for a flame quit flaming you replied 3 or 4 times w/o anyone in between there a few Messages ago and I think that regardless of what you say flaming lis exactly what your aiming at...thats all im gonna say cause i dont think any public forum is the place destructive flaming or its reciprocal remarks (hypocrit alert)I will not respond to you anymore in the hopes that letting you have the Last word will content you.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then do us all a favour and get out of the "PBW Down" thread.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you. I played PBEM before PBW. And when I ran a game at PBW (and it was down), I ran the turn manually at home and mailed them.

I suggested to the owners of the games I am in that they could be run manually but no one seems to have wanted to.

And I don't play against the AI. That ended long ago when I discovered PBW games and PBEM games.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's basically what I mean. It take a sizable lack of consideration. Really, what's the difference between uploading to a server and sending an email?

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I stay for as long as I please. Thanks.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then do us all a favour and get out of the "PBW Down" thread.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This makes sense... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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Again, you need to place yourself in someone else's shoes Gyphon. You continue to discuss lazy hosts and not the players themselves. Manually processing turns is a lot of extra work for game hosts that were hosting games on PBW (which involved zero work to process turns) because it took no time.

Your "arguments" are trying to tell us that your post meant one thing, and one thing only. This is what is wrong. You may have meant one thing, but what you said is not quite what you meant to say. Slinging insults is no basis for an argument, and that is nearly all that you have done here.

Re: PBW Down? - Back up!
 

Changing your name to "staying as long as i want" is just childish obstinance i shouldn't be saying anything if i truly want you to have the Last word and leave but im still legally a minor so i figure i can afford a small amount of childish obstinance what im saying here is this i just updated my star trek mod and fully intend to go play it right now but hereby give my full support to Imperator Fyron and DavidG and encourage you to grow up and go do what you did when you weren't "concerned with PBW"-namely get out of our up til now friendly forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: PBW Down? - Back up!
 

Gyphon, I completely understand your frustration. If you have a game owner willing to handle turns via pbem and players unwilling to play there isn't much we can do about it unfortunatly. What you should do is discuss it with the game owner and the other players rather then venting in this thread. Chances are a good number of the players aren't following this thread and so aren't seeing your Posts anyway. For that matter you may have players that weren't all that regular when the game was on PBW. The game owner can run the turn without all the players turns, jsut as PBW can. But again, that is something you should take up with the game owner and players directly. This particular thread isn't really the place for it.

Geoschmo

[ August 18, 2003, 00:21: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: PBW Down? - Back up!
 

Ok everyone, this thread is not the place for this discussion. Gyphon is going to take his complaint to the game owner. We don't need to continue the argument of whether this is a flame or that is a flame. Let it drop or I'll lock the thread.

Geoschmo

[ August 18, 2003, 00:21: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: PBW Down? - Back up!
 

Geo, Can you give us an update on PBW, so I don't have to read thru the past emails to find out.
Thanks.