Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Peter look at it from this angle then:

Hypothetically speaking if a fortune teller was able to see into the future and witness the event which brought the copper and/or iron mine then for that fortune teller it would be known and nonexistent.
OR
If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:57: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Since when does precognition have a place in the debate of existance? Might as well say "What if Space Clams said sometime in the future there would be X" then it has to be known, yes?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Zen look at it from this angle then:


If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Only from their peception. I can claim to 'know' things which may or may not be fictional about anything. And you've switched your debate topic. What if the programmer programmed the copper or iron mine to only appear on certain conditions but not for other conditions? Then those conditions are not met, so there is no possibility of there ever being a iron or copper mine, is it still known?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, hypothetically allowing precognition, and infallible precognition at that.... (I know I am going to regret this)

No, the copper mine would be nonexistent but it would be known to the fortuneteller that a copper mine would exist at some time and place in the future. That is not the same as that future copper mine being known to the fortuneteller in the present, and, likewise, the copper mine was not unknown in the present before the fortune teller performed his divination.

Before the divination, the fact that a specific copper mine would exist at that time in the future would be unknown - but that fact is not the copper mine.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, that future mine would be nonexistent in the present, but the programmer would know the fact that a copper mine with specific properties would come into existence at some time in the future. He would not know the copper mine now.

You seem to be consistently equating concepts and ideas with objects, and equating knowledge of future events with future objects being known in the present (when, in fact, only the knowledge that they will exist in the future is known), which makes this discussion very surreal.

EDIT: More surreal that it was already, that is. Bringing precognition into a discussion is not usually a good way to advance your cause.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be known that the copper mine is nonexistent until the event took place. Thus the copper mine is known and nonexistent for this case. One could even prepare to use the mine the day it arrives by saving gold. Another explanation for it being known and nonexistent. The fact that it is known to appear in the future still shows there is known knowledge about the mine.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes... the programmer still has known knowledge about the mine. The programer knows the mine will appear when those conditions are met... thus making it known and nonexistent. The copper mine would remain unknown and nonexistent for all the other gamers unless the programmer lets them know and/or the event occurs.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:54: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be known that the copper mine is nonexistent until the event took place. Thus the copper mine is known and nonexistent for this case. One could even prepare to use the mine the day it arrives by saving gold. Another explanation for it being known and nonexistent. The fact that it is known in the future still shows there is known knowledge about the mine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So my godhood is known and nonexistent? (I'm not a god). My third and fourth arms are known and nonexistent as well? Godzilla and Bugs Bunny are known and nonexistent as well, correct?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your introducing different variables into the discussion... which can stray the topic... but I will respond anyways.

The godhood comment introduces religious and belief variables so I will avoid this because it can blossom so many different topics.
Godzilla and BugsBunny are known and they do exist as cartoons on television... thus known and exist. One can even visit a local store and purchase a BugsBunny.
The 3rd and 4th arm... needs more explanation. How do you know about these are arms? Are you a mechanic which works on prosthetics? Are you referring to someone who might be insane and able to see these arms?
In the case of the programmer he knows about the copper mine because he programmed the event... making the copper mine known and nonexistent.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

The only thing known and non-existant that we have here, is logic.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen I'm sure you've been on many forums and never thought I would have to say this to you but... please FOCUS on the topic or don't post. Avoid the flames for heavens sake !

[ March 20, 2004, 00:56: Message edited by: NTJedi ]