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-   Scenarios, Maps & Mods (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=96)
-   -   ArcoBlood Mod Finished (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=23256)

TheSelfishGene March 25th, 2005 12:05 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
...the question of whether or not something designed the universe becomes not that important.
Thats true. You could say I believe in god simply because I dont believe that dark matter really exists, yet I find the big bang theory reasonable enough. Without dark matter, there is not enough matter in the universe for it to eventually stop expanding and collapse. So, if there isnt dark matter, some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang. Why not call that force 'God'? It doesnt really matter, as long as it isnt pointlessly mettling in the affairs of humans. And that I would find nearly impossible to believe. Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.
Actually the ability for a God to meddle in the affairs of men is amazingly limited, because of the, for lack of a better phrase, "butterfly effect".

If you save Janine from cancer (say), and Janine runs into Clarice with her car and kills her, 20 years later, did God just kill Clarice to save Janine? No problem! God can fix that, he's God and can do anything! Sure.... except for that annoying concept of Free Will. If God created us to excerise Free Will, only to be constantly meddling in our everyday activities to reward believers, or subtly changing events without our knowledge at every turn, it rather cheapens the game of life, no?

Of course this logic, rather bizarrely, agrees with the "manifestation mythology" of the Old Testament - when God is going to change things, The Man shows up, not some trivial and lengthy chains of causation. It also means, of course, that you shouldn't bother praying to God since he can't help you anyway. At least if your praying for some temporal aid, although it doesn't exclude "guiding your heart".

quantum_mechani March 25th, 2005 12:12 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
BigDaddy said:
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
Quote:
Scott Hebert said:
Actually, it was not directed towards anyone in particular. I will note, though, that as untenable as agnosticism is, atheism is even more so.

If you would like to hear about evidence, please PM me. This thread is too cluttered already.
Sorry, but I think I'll take a rain check, out of this discussion I have already received one 'preachy' PM. I can see we are already talking past each other anyway.

I must admit I am more than surprised at the number of serious christians on the forum, given how easily most of them are offended.
I am not offended, and won't crawl into a hole. You may be right about the "preachy" PM, perhaps it should have been public. Why don't you post it?

All I sent was an encouraging Thank you.
By offended I didn't mean our discussion, but Dominions in general. I will post the PM if you like:
Quote:
BigDaddy said:
Actually, this message was meant for Scott Hebert. I apologize for the error.

I want to congratulate you on your willingness to accept that there may be some sort of religion or god out there. I challenge you to challenge God.

It is no accident that most religions have similar laws, because the laws of god are "written on our heart." These are the same rules and morals your conscience lives by everyday. At the bottom of the well of seeking what is in your heart, you will find Buddhism. Or, you can use a manual like the Bible. Jesus death by crucifixion and the dates of the writing of his predicted life are not in doubt. These things have been proven by antropologists. This type foretelling is the most common way for God to show his existence.

Anything that exists is either neutral evidence, or evidence for the existence of god.

Thank you for reading this,

David
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
Which post are talking about?
Quote:
BigDaddy said:
Thank you. I was so pleased to see another man in the forum. I was sure I would have had to say that myself, but I doubt I would have put it so elequently.
Dave
@arryn: If whatever created the universe is still watching, I think you're right that amusement is more than likely the reason...

The_Tauren13 March 25th, 2005 12:33 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
Arryn said:
Actually, this is a logical fallacy. You are quickly (and conveniently) explaining away something in the natural universe, that is (as yet) not understood, by means of the supernatural. It's the same reasoning that had humans inventing rain gods not so long ago.
I in no way meant to imply that whatever this force was is something supernatural.

Quote:
TheSelfishGene said:
If you save Janine from cancer (say), and Janine runs into Clarice with her car and kills her, 20 years later, did God just kill Clarice to save Janine? No problem! God can fix that, he's God and can do anything! Sure.... except for that annoying concept of Free Will. If God created us to excerise Free Will, only to be constantly meddling in our everyday activities to reward believers, or subtly changing events without our knowledge at every turn, it rather cheapens the game of life, no?
There is no such thing as free will. That much is a proven fact. If god were truly omniscient, he would be able to completely predict everything that will ever happen. Thus, any entertainment he may derive from actually running the simulation will fall flat, much like watching a movie 1000 times would. So is god not omniscient? Then what makes him so great?

quantum_mechani March 25th, 2005 12:44 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
Quote:
Arryn said:
Actually, this is a logical fallacy. You are quickly (and conveniently) explaining away something in the natural universe, that is (as yet) not understood, by means of the supernatural. It's the same reasoning that had humans inventing rain gods not so long ago.
I in no way meant to imply that whatever this force was is something supernatural.

Quote:
TheSelfishGene said:
If you save Janine from cancer (say), and Janine runs into Clarice with her car and kills her, 20 years later, did God just kill Clarice to save Janine? No problem! God can fix that, he's God and can do anything! Sure.... except for that annoying concept of Free Will. If God created us to excerise Free Will, only to be constantly meddling in our everyday activities to reward believers, or subtly changing events without our knowledge at every turn, it rather cheapens the game of life, no?
There is no such thing as free will. That much is a proven fact. If god were truly omniscient, he would be able to completely predict everything that will ever happen. Thus, any entertainment he may derive from actually running the simulation will fall flat, much like watching a movie 1000 times would. So is god not omniscient? Then what makes him so great?
Not necessarily, you can create your own game and still have fun playing, particularly with a random element. Plus, there is no particular evidence that anything that may have created the universe would have to be omniscient.

Arryn March 25th, 2005 01:02 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
There is no such thing as free will. That much is a proven fact.
I don't disagree, but for the sake of argument, would you care to provide us with this proof?

Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
If god were truly omniscient, he would be able to completely predict everything that will ever happen. Thus, any entertainment he may derive from actually running the simulation will fall flat, much like watching a movie 1000 times would.
Entertainment derives from being surprised. If you cannot be surprised (kind of goes along with the all-knowing shtick) than how can you be entertained? heh What's the *point* of a universe if you (as the all-knowing almighty deity) already know every possible outcome, and worse, can change outcomes to suit yourself by re-initializing the starting conditions? A deity (or deities) only makes sense precisely if it is *not* all-knowing and all-powerful. Ergo throw out the bulk of what most of our religions teach as "undeniable fact".

Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
So is god not omniscient? Then what makes him so great?
Nothing at all, other than that such a hypothetical being is likely just a wee bit more advanced (evolutionarily and technologically) than we are. Whether that requires that others less advanced (and more gullible) worship it ...

Arryn March 25th, 2005 01:09 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
Not necessarily, you can create your own game and still have fun playing, particularly with a random element.
To an omniscient being, there's no such thing as "random". Which path an event chain might take might be random, but the being would already, in advance, know which path will be taken. It's the very definition of the term "omniscient": knowing the outcome. All possible outcomes and which one, specifically, will come to pass. Logically, then, where's the fun in waiting for what you already know will happen?

quantum_mechani March 25th, 2005 02:08 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
Arryn said:
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
Not necessarily, you can create your own game and still have fun playing, particularly with a random element.
To an omniscient being, there's no such thing as "random". Which path an event chain might take might be random, but the being would already, in advance, know which path will be taken. It's the very definition of the term "omniscient": knowing the outcome. All possible outcomes and which one, specifically, will come to pass. Logically, then, where's the fun in waiting for what you already know will happen?
I suppose it depends on your definition of omniscient. I was defining it as knowing all that is happening, not all that will happen.

Arryn March 25th, 2005 02:20 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
quantum_mechani said:
I suppose it depends on your definition of omniscient. I was defining it as knowing all that is happening, not all that will happen.
Cause and effect. If you know *all* that is happening *right now*, then you will know what *will* happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif "All" is a very encompassing term. When one argues philosophy, then little details like the meanings of almost every word used in the discussion becomes important. It's necessary so that both/all parties in the discussion are using a common frame of reference. Otherwise, one gets the morass that's common when people argue religion ...

No, I'm not picking on you, in case you're wondering. If anything, I'm picking on this very-much-gone-astray thread, which was ostensibly about a mod, and has been hijacked into an ethics and philosophy debate.

TheSelfishGene March 25th, 2005 02:33 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
I like to think that the thread "evolved" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. But yea, these sorts of discussions go on every day by the thousands throughout the net, and aren't appropriate here. But sometimes your bored and just can't resist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Graeme Dice March 25th, 2005 02:35 AM
Re: ArcoBlood Mod Finished
 
Quote:
Arryn said:
Cause and effect. If you know *all* that is happening *right now*, then you will know what *will* happen.
That's assuming that the universe is completely deterministic, which is possible, but not necessarily true.

Anyways, on the topic of the Arco Blood Mod, if somebody is interested, I'll be starting up another "Modded Nations Only" game in the near future, and this one would be an excellent choice.


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