Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Can you name a water nation with A access?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

EA Oceania with this mod

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Yeah, every single one, via their Pretender.

Since when should a single path item be as cheap to forge as a dual path item? Giving the ability to create an alternative item that works the same as an Amulet of the Fish, with water only, is enough. I don't see any good reason why it should replace the Amulet of the Fish, or be easier to create.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

wait you want to just make an item that does the same as ammy of the fish, but is w only? so why would you ever build the AotF?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Being forced to take A on your pretender just to get out of the water is just lame. Its not like people are that scared of Mind Lords and Triton kings as thugs or whatever anyway, so it seems like a trivial "downside" compared to a significant upside.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Quick bug report: the "new" EA R'lyeh is still in MA, you forgot to switch #era 2 to #era 1;)

Beside that,great work! I'll be testing it in a couple of games in the next days, and I'll report anything I find.

Regarding underwater fortresses, while the common nature fort site almost made underwater fort building redundant, especially with high magic site settings, it actually gave a chance to land nations to secure a water foothold.
This is just an idea that springed to my mind right now, but perhaps you could consider letting all land nations build an underwater fort? Make it one of the very expensive ones; it won't give national units anyway, I think; but it still will be useful as a hiding place and as a resource/supply centre. After all if humans get to magically breathe underwater, what's stopping them from building an outpost while they're at it:D

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

I don't quite understand the problem. This mod makes the items that confer water breathing cheaper, and it only stands to reason that it would make the Amulet of the Fish cheaper. The only way to make that happen is to make the Amulet single-path.

There are only a few nations that it actually affects, too. EA R'lyeh, which needs the boost; EA Oceania, which could use the reduced price; and MA Oceania(as essentially a water booster).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

He just said that fort modding is impossible at the moment. Also, EA Ryleh is MA Ryleh in order to give it land recruits. Its a modding workaround since he can't just add new ones for EA on land.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Err. Right. :doh:

I uploaded a quickfix version 0.91.


Once again, not moddable. In case we still need to boost the levels of UW access, I have some ideas. Note that I'm keeping these in reserve, I'll only implement them if they are really needed.:

1) Give all units that don't breathe poor ambhibian (Bane Lords + many other undead, elementals, Vinemen, and so forth).
2) New easy nature summon, "Kelpmen", who get stronger in UW.
3) A spell that builds a UW fort, but is only castable from land.
4) Turbocharge UW access by making the breathing items uber-easy to forge (I'm talking about making them level 0 and 1 cost for all of them).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Ok, I've read up on the AOTF, and I think it should be a lesser magical item, rather than a greater item. I still think the Air/Water requirement should be maintained.

What I'm suggesting is that AOTF be less expensive in terms of path level and research "cost", while an additional item exists that allows the use of Water only, to also get units on land, but at a higher cost in path level and research.

In other words, the AOTF would be lesser (2 Const), but still require A1W1, while the ??? water only item would be greater (4 Const), and require W4.

That would make AOTF an opportunistic forging, which means if you can make it, and you need it, great, while still keeping a balance present, in terms of aquatic units having serious difficulty achieving land.

I happen to like that aspect of the game. I'm in favor of maintaining it, since it keeps the oceans mysterious and threatening to land-dwellers, since on land you never really see what's going on down there, while at the same time making aquatic Nations entirely different from land or amphibious Nations.

When a powerful unit from the sea manages to climb onto the shore, and starts wreaking havoc, it's an extraordinary event. I don't mind if it happens more often than it currently does--and I don't mind if it should happen more often--but I don't want the status quo to be entirely shattered.

I happen to believe the Devs had a purpose in doing things the way they did them, and even though their understanding of balancing apparently just isn't complete in terms of gameplay, the way they've set things up has created an ambiance in the game that I think is important, even vital.

I'm all for modding the hell out of the game, 9 ways from Sunday, but I still want the spirit of the game as it comes out of the box to be preserved, and I really feel that this is a piece of that, however small.

Aquatic Nations, after all, already have their own set of advantages. Making land easy to get to just erodes away at the whole idea of playing an aquatic Nation. With the possible exception of Hinnom, I don't believe there's a single EA Nation that's more powerful than Oceania, except for the fact that they're almost entirely aquatic. They possess the single best Sacred recruitables in the game, pound for pound, along with all their other advantages. Give them the ability to forge endless cheap Amulets of the Fish, without requiring air magic, and I really believe it could break their balance, giving them the potential to turn into another Hinnom.

Maybe not as bad, but still unbalanced, and potentially very bad. Imagine self-healing heavily blessed sacred calvalry commanders with magic weapons that can strike at any water or coastal area almost at will, and then retreat to near-complete safety.


But maybe I'm wrong. How about some actual arguments against what I'm espousing? Why should we have a single do-everything item, when we have the option of diversification, each element of which represents different strategic choices for the player to make? What are the benefits? What's wrong with keeping the Amulet of the Fish as-is? Other than as a Greater magical item, which I'm absolutely against. It's quite thematic at the very least, and I require deeper reasons as to why this area of the game should be greatly simplified, when it could be corrected without what I consider overtly handwavey simplification.

For that matter, you could add an even cheaper (as far as paths and research go) forgeable item-a helmet for instance-that did exactly what the Amulet of the Fish does, that required Earth 1, Air 1, Water 1, and represented a sortof reverse diving helmet. Make it a minor (Const 0) item that costs 5 Earth gems, and it will make Earth gems more interesting for aquatic Nations.

Maybe you could even add an item that requires Nature 2, Water 2. Armour maybe, akin to the Shambler skin. It could compete with the AOTF in the lesser forgeable item category, and cost 5 Nature and 5 Water gems. That would make it an option for Oceania, allowing them a more expensive but easier to reach option to get on land a little earlier, without breaking balance.