Human vs Top AIs
 

My thanks to Master Belisarius for running the AI Deathmatches. Based on the Round 1 & 2 reports I started a solitaire game (my third SEIVg in history) including my Terrans and the TDM-ModPack Aquilaeians, Fazrah, Narn, Tessellate, and United Flora. After seeing the recent quarterfinal results I would probably substitute the Verdurans or Pyrochette for the Fazrah, but there's always next game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

The Terrans encountered the Fazrah first, after 30-odd turns. I was surprised and pleased to see the Fazrah using mines on the common border soon after war began. Unfortunately they never used mines or sweepers in sufficient numbers, and finally surrendered. Although definitely improved over the standard AIs, the Fazrah were still slow to expand and research compared to the human player. They also neglected to launch stored satellites on several planets. On the bright side, they did seem pretty good at building facilities to match planet values, e.g. building mines mostly on mineral-rich worlds, and so on.

The Aquilaeians and Tessellate seem to have similar shortcomings; the Terrans had brief trade alliances with both before they declared war, and on the comparison chart they were each at about half the Terran level in Research, Resources, and Planets. The Aquilaeians seem to have developed some Counter-Intelligence capability; my second Ship Bomb project failed. The Tessellate, despite their lagging research, have fielded a Cruiser against the mostly LC Terran fleet. Nevertheless, as of Turn 79 the Terrans definitely have the upper hand. Unless the so-far-unseen Narn and/or UF have built a formidable empire, the Terrans seem to have a lock on this game. Perhaps next time I should try the team play option (5 AI vs human).

I look forward to the rest of AI Deathmatch 3.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Thanks for your report! Really enjoyed it and always is good to know how the AIs perform against real palyers.
Was you using High Bonus? You should play with at least low bonus.. but medium or high are more challenging.
Please tell me your game settings... and yes, the AI vs human it's a challenging option (specially in small galaxies), but maybe you are ready to play in PBW and meet human players!

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Master Belisarius writes:

>> Please tell me your game settings...

Large quadrant, Galactic Edge (?), 1 Average Planet (2000M pop) but not all players required to start with the same planet size. Low research start, default costs. 2000 point game, took "Propulsion Experts" Advanced Trait on the theory that Advanced Storage was too advantageous. I min-maxed only to the point of diminishing returns, e.g. Strength 80%, not 50%. Aggression and Defense default. Intelligence, Mining & Construction 120%, Maintenance 110%. Cunning, Farming, Refining, Political Savvy & Repair were all 80% as I recall. The rest were default or below, because somehow I raised enough points to take "Hardy Industrialists". Culture was Scientists.

It occurred to me later that starting with Medium Homeworlds may have been a mistake. I suspect the AIs are much less adept than a human at dealing with a lack of resources, hence the slow growth of the three AIs I've met so far.

>> You should play with at least low bonus

Well, I dislike AI "cheats", but if that's what it takes...

>> and yes, the AI vs human it's a challenging option

Good news.

>> but maybe you are ready to play in PBW and meet human players!

BWAHAHAHA! Good one, MB! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Seriously, so far I've been using Tactical Combat all the way. I know this gives the human a big advantage, but at this point I just can't stand for the game to run my precious ships, even under my general direction.

Maybe after I've learned more about Strategic Combat...

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

The Terrans, EA and Narn for one are optimised for "no bonus"-games. They use the resources more sparingly which puts them at a slight disadvantage in games where there are AI boni since they don't use them to the full extend possible.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Yes, it's a common way to stop AI-s even at high bonus: mines, mines, mines.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

At one point the Fazrah actually broke through a field with 20-odd mines, but lost their sweepers and a couple combat ships in the process; the survivors were annihilated in the ensuing battle. Going the other way I had to sweep 30+. Overall I thought the Fazrah handled mines pretty well for an AI. I'm currently swallowing frontier colonies of the Aquilaeians and Tessellate, and my sweeper-escorted fleets have so far encountered no mines. It would seem prudent for an AI to deploy a few minelayers to its borders before declaring war. In fact it might be prudent even in peace.

Next game I'll try mine warfare in a gang-up-on-the-human conflict. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Ok, this is the main reason because you had not a decent challenge...
All the AI races I have designed, are optimized to play with AT LEAST low bonuses (specially the Tessellate because it's a "combo" race).

Also, remember to select High Difficulty... because if not, the AI will not use all the ministers!

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

They usually lay mines fairly well, even in peace. The problem would be that they're lack of resources...
Can you send me the savegame?

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Aquilaeian vs Pyrochette.
The Aquilaeian won by points at the turn 500. It was a long and weird game: the Pyrochette conquered the Aquilaeian's systems in the left side, but lost his own systems at the right side.

Verduran vs Narn Regime.
The Narn Regime won by points at the turn 500.
In some way, I have not expected a Narn's victory, because although his ships are a lot better than the Verduran's ships, the Verdurans built many many ships and fleets (and the AI is not good defending when the opponent has many fleets moving into their systems).

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

True. But think it mainly works in the early game.
Because most of the strongest TDMs AI, include "offensive sweepers". In the late game, a pair of those offensive sweepers can manage 100 mines without big problems.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Master Belisarius writes:

>>Can you send me the savegame?

Gladly. I'll try to remember this evening.

Computer players are set to High, so all ministers should be active. No bonus to AIs. I can see how that would handicap the them; I'm experiencing my SECOND minerals crunch of the game, despite taking a number of occupied systems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

I did not know this!

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Aquilaeian vs United Flora.
The UF won by points at the turn 500. It was a weird game, where the AIs doesn't wanted to attack...

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Verduran vs Tessellate.
The Tessellate won without problems, at the turn 250.

Pyrochette vs United Flora.
As expected, the UF won. They killed the Pyrochette at the turn 280.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

We're nearing the end.
Who do you think will win and also how long do you expect the Last game will Last?

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Yea! Think my computer will be happiest than anybody else to finish the games!

I'm pretty sure the final will be between the United Flora and the Tessellate.
But I'm not sure who of them would win, because I was not playing test games between them, then, only can guess...

Think the Tessellate has the advantage, thanks the armor skip weapons...
In the other hand, although I did several improvements into the Tessellate's scripts, we can't miss that the UF won the final in the Death Match 2, without problems.

I'm considering to run a play off for the final: the first AI to win 4 games will be the winner.
Think will be able to run the final in 3-4 days.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Narn Regime vs Tessellate
The Tessellate won fast, at the turn 190.

Re: Human vs Top AIs
 

Pyrochette vs Aquilaeian.
The Aquilaeian won at the turn 420 (it was a 24 hours game!).

Then, here the standings for the group E1:

Group E1
United Flora 4
Aquilaeian 2
Pyrochette 0


In the group E2, the Tessellate was the winner, then, they will fight the semi-final against the Aquilaeian.

The UF still need to wait, to see if will play against the Narn or the Verduran.

re AI Deathmatch
 

Belisarius et al,

Can I ask you a question or two? I would like to use the AIs to rigorously test a new map I have made (it's a*very*( different map)

1) how do you do practically an AI deathmatch? Ie: how do you load up the game so only AIs are running, etc...
2) how long do you let it run (in turns) before calling the game, or do you just let it run until only one is left? And, if so, how practically is this done?
3) in your experience, how well, if at all, do AIs deal with one-way warp points?
4)Do you have a list of, say, the top 20 AIs that I should use to do such a rigorous test as I describe?

thanks in advance for any and all assistance!

Alarik

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

In my game tests, discovered that an empire started as human and changed to be 100% under AI control, doesn't work exactly like an empire started as AI player.
Then, in my test games always use an "human empire" as first player, with all the ministers OFF. Usually I make them start into a systems without warpoints (then, nobody take advantage of them).
After the human empire, I load the empires that want to test and select the option "Computer Controlled".

Use a program that I did some years ago, named "SE4 batch". With it, I can run the game X turns and keep save games each 10 turns (for example).
If you wish, can send it to you (although some people had problems running it).

Also, Ruatha, who posted some *.bat files that can help you to run SE4 x number of times.

IF you have XP (and think W2000), you can use this bat:

set counter = 0
:loop
set /a counter = %counter% + 1
set
if exist Gamepath\Se4.exe
IF "%counter%"==5 goto End
START /WAIT
Gamepath\Se4.exe "Game" "password" "0" "modname" -nd
goto loop
:End

This Bat would run SEIV 5 times (of course you can change the number of times).

If you have Win98, need to use this other bat (also posted by Ruatha and works in XP too):

@echo off >NULL
if not [%1]==[] goto Okay
echo Syntax: %0 Number
goto End
:Okay
if [%2]==[::] goto 2nd time around
if [%3]==[::] goto 3rd time around
if [%4]==[::] goto 4th time around
if [%5]==[::] goto 5th time around

%comspec% /e:2048 /c %0 %1 ::
goto End
:2nd time around
for %%v in (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) do call %0 %1 %%v ::
goto End
:3rd time around
for %%v in (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) do call %0 %1 %2 %%v ::
goto End
:4th time around
for %%v in (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) do call %0 %1 %2 %3 %%v ::
goto End
:5th time around
echo %2%3%4
if [%1]==[%4] exit
if [%1]==[%3%4] exit
if [%1]==[%2%3%4] exit
start /w Gamepath\Se4.exe "Game" "password" "0" "modname"
:End

You need to run this bat, indicating the number of loops.
If you named the bat AUTO, then, you can call it with:
AUTO 5, and will run 5 times.

Never did this test... but think the AI would be in problems to manage it.

Think you should try my signature to check the firsts AI deatmatch editions.
Here the list of the 18 best AIs of the current Death Match.

United Flora
Pyrochette
Corrian
Tessellate
Orks
Toron
Space Vikings
Fazrah
EEE
Aquilaeian
CueCappa
Rage
Earth Alliance
Narn Regime
Sallega
Verduran
Khrel
Gron

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif No problem!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Narn Regime vs Verduran.
The Verduran won at the turn 220 and then, forced a Tie Break.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Narn Regime vs Verduran
The Verduran won at the turn 210.

Verduran vs Narn Regime
The Narn Regime won by points at the turn 500.

Then, the Verduran won the Tie Break and got the place to the Semi-Final.

Here the standings after the Fifth Round:

GROUP E1
United Flora 4
Aquilaeian 2
Pyrochette 0

GROUP E2
Tessellate 4
Verduran 2 => Won the tie break
Narn Regime 2


In the Semi-final, each AI will play 2 games, and the winner of each group will reach the final.

GROUP F1
United Flora
Verduran

Group F2
Tessellate
Aquilaeian

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

United Flora vs Verduran.
The UF won at the turn 450.

Tessellate vs Aquilaeian.
The Tessellaye defeated the Aquilaeian pretty fast, at the turn 210.

At this point, is not a secret that the UF and the Tessellate are the strongest AIs (at least with this game settings), and that the final will be again between them.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Du-du-dun!

Everybody, get a chair and bring some popcorn!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
By the way, I keep saved all the games have runned...
I have stopped to sent the savegames to Gandalph, because he wasn't posted them anymore.
But if somebody want a game, just let me know and will send it (no mater the size!).

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Too bad Gandalph doesn't put them on the net anymore. These matches have to be preserved for the next generation, they are a testimony to all us modders, AI writers and fans.
I wish I had a server, it would be dedicated to SE IV.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

hehehehe, I believe that your you exaggerate a bit!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Verduran vs United Flora.
The United Flora won at the turn 320.

Aquilaeian vs Tessellate.
The Tessellate won at the turn 200.

Then, the United Flora and the Tessellate reached the Final...

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Drumroll, please...

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif To delay a bit the end, started to run games between the Verduran and the Aquilaeian, to know who would get the third place.
Will play 2 games for each AI, and if after both games does exist a draw... I'll run a Tie Break.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

The tension is mounting.
What are the prizes for the three winners? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Has United Flora and the Tessellate lost a single game during this match? I have not seen any mention of UF losing but I'm not sure of Tessellate.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

None of both lost a game...

The UF won all the games by KO, except a game against the Verduran that won by points at the turn 500.

The Tessellate won all the games by KO.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Verduran vs Aquilaeian.
After a loong game, the Verduran won by points at the turn 500.-

Have started the other game this morning, and after 14 hours playing, seems like the Aquilaeian would win.
Then, probably will need to run a tie break.

Will be out during the weekend, then, the Final will need to wait a bit more! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Hmmm, considering I did the Aquilaeian and the Tessellate... don't think would be fair a prize!!!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Sorry guys and gals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif, I have been very busy and the files have been backing up in my mailbox. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif There are so many now, it seems a daunting task but, I will get them ALL posted to the web site this weekend (probably by Sat night). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif You may look for them then.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Alrighty then, three cheers for Gandalph!! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon44.gif[/img]

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

When the need is greatest, the Gray Wizard comes to save the day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Cool!
Then, later will continue sending the files!!!

Well, my computer crashed running the second game between Aquilaeian and Verdurans at the turn 460... I'm start to run the remainder turns... but will be back to see the result the next Sunday.

Regards!
MB

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Aquilaeian vs Verduran.
The Aquilaeian won at the turn 500 by points.

Now, I'm starting a Tie break.
If after play the two games, every AI won a game by points (like happened), will sumarize the points in both games for each AI, and the AI with most points will win.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Verduran vs Aquilaeian Tie Break 1.

The Verdurans won by KO at the turn 310, and seems like they would get the 3rd place.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Damn pitty your computer crashed, I hope it hasn't damaged anything.
Almost down to the last match.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Yea... At least the computer still it's working!
Time in time, the computer doesn't recognize the HD and then, the game is halted and can't continue running until I'm back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif
After the contest will need to do some maintenance work in my computer...

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

I was wrong...

Aquilaeian vs Verduran Tie Break 2.

The Aquilaeian defeated the Verduran at the turn 300 and then, got the third place!

At the end think it's fair, because the Verduran ships looks too soft to my taste.
They build massive fleets, true, but don't think they could offer a decent challenge against an human player.
As example, some Aquilaeian BA had +20 experience won in battle...

Right now, I'm starting the first match between the United Flora and the Tessellate!!!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Oh yeah! The last match between the best AI's of SE IV!!
Grab your popcorn here and enjoy the show!

I'm glad there is a Dutch made shipset involved, gives as a Dutchman a proud feeling. Way to go Henk Brouwer and of course Master Belisarius!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

OK, OK, it was more of a task than I expected and some relatives dropped by. I am working on it and will post here when I finish.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Take your time Gandalph. We'll be waiting patiently.
Thanks for the effort!

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Gandalph:

In another thread I AT quoted this statement of you:

WARNING:
This game is NOT suitable for students, interns, apprentices, or anyone else who is expected to pass tests on a regular basis. Do not think about SEIV strategies while operating heavy machinery. Do not begin learning SEIV without first making arrangements for someone to check on you daily. If you find that your game has continued for more than 36 hours straight then you should consult a physician immediately (Do NOT show him the game!)

Could I use it as a signature on other sites?

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Sorry man, wrong Gandalph. There was a day when I was the only one, then Gandalf Parker showed up (note the spelling difference). We are frequently confused now.

Re: re AI Deathmatch
 

Don't worry. I know they're a lot and most of them are big files.
Will start to send you the other files, later.