Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Edi, great work on the readme!

And of course, thanks to Zen, as well.

thanks for including the original value. It really helps in determining how much something was strengthened/weakened.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Doesn't Order/Turmoil currently have some effect on the Event frequency?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Growth seems to be far better compared to order.

I ran a test game, where I gave one god order 1 and the other growth 1, order started with 166 income growth with 163. I just ended the turns after checking incomes.
After the second turn growth income jumped to 165 and after the 6th turn he was already at 167.

I suggest removing the extra 2% gold bonus growth gets, it is already a very worthwile scale withe the increased population growth effect.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

It was the only smart way to do it, my mistake that I didn't do so earlier. This way I won't have to refer back to my other documentation to see the actual effects. Thanks for your compliments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Nevermind the following - it's wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Couldn't help doing a bit of algebra:

Income from province with Order+1 (on the N'th turn):
population / 200 * 1,06

Accumulated income with Order+1:
population / 200 * 1,06 * N

Income from province with Growth+1 (on the N'th turn):
population / 200 * 1,04 * 1,0003^N

Accumulated income with Growth+1:
population / 200 * 1,04 * Sum(i=1 to N of)[1,0003^ i]

The Last term in the above is a geometric series which adds up to:
Sum(i=1 to N of)[1,0003^ i] = (1 - 1,0003^(N+1))/(1 - 1,0003) - 1
Sum(bla bla)[bla bla bla] = (1,0003^(N+1) - 1) / 0,0003

Equating the two different accumulated incomes (Order+1 = Growth+1) gives:
1,06 * N = 1,04 * (1,0003^(N+1) - 1) / 0,0003

Here are the values of the left- and right-hand sides of this equation for some values of N:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
N Left(Order+1) Right(Growth+1)
1 1,06000 1,040312
50 53,00000 52,399756
100 106,00000 105,591314
125 132,50000 132,487750
126 133,56000 133,567808
</pre><hr />

All this (crap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) just to say that in terms of income Growth+1 overtakes Order+1 after 125 turns. If you choose +3, Growth will ovetake Order at turn 115.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

This mod is getting better and better! Thanks guys!

Edi, couple typos in readme:
-check the treelords' magic paths
(621) Treelord -&gt; Vengeful Treelord
(980) Treelord -&gt; Ageless Treelord

-missing parenthesis
(925) Tarrasque

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Indeed, thanks. Looks like I'd mistakenly put E2 for the Vengeful Treelord when it was supposed to be B2. Just for the record, Zen's spell mod switches around the treelord magics so that the one that used to have earth now has blood and vice versa, which accounts for some of the strangeness.

I'll fix the typos for the readme for the next Version.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

playtesting suggests that you have 1 zero too many, growth rate is 1,003 not 1,0003.
Secondly you have to factor in the administration bonus from castles, which incresaes with growth. If you do the test game you will see that growth´s income in a province with a watchtower will overtake order after turn 6 or 7. And after turn 10-11 the total accumulated income will be better than order´s.
Now growth has several other nice side effects(like better resource income, convenient bloodhunting/patrolling)
and that makes growth a nobrainer compared to order with that mod.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Indeed, it would appear a province with 30 000 pop and growth3 dominion has an increase of 270 pop per turn - so growth would raise pop by 0.3% per scale. From the comments above, I assume it was meant to be only 0.03% increase per scale?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I like (the idea of) the scales in the faeron test mod used in some of Soapyfrogs games. I haven't played 3 turns with them yet, so I don't know how balanced they are, but they seem to keep the flavor of the scales more, rather than mostly smudging the lines in the income department.

Those scales are:
order - effect on event freq is 3%
prod - 3% income, 25% resources
growth - 0.5% pop, 30% supply
luck - 15% event freq, 15% event good or bad

#turmoilevents 3

#deathsupply 30
#deathdeath 5

#slothincome 3
#slothresources 25

#misfortune 15
#luckevents 15

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The basic growth value was 0.2%, and so I believe the .02% and .03% were typos. It has been increased to make Growth more worthwhile and, above all, to make Death a less appealing choice.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yeah I used 1,0003 because Zen stated above that the growth rate was .03% - If he meant .3% then it should be 1,003. And also I wasn't aware of the admin/growth issue, I just thought that other castle stuff would be identical in the two situations. As is(almost) always the case, actual experiments beat dry calculations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@Turin: Could you tell me the connection between admin and growth ? (Is it in Liga's addendum ? or ?). And even without the added benefits of growth that you pointed out, I agree, that growth over order seems to be a no-brainer.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Unlike Growth, Order still effects event frequency, so it's not quite as clearcut as you suggest.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The only one of those that I would change if I could go back in time would be

#deathsupply 30

the modifier is simply too high.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Well my calculations suggest that it is admin value/2 added as a multiplier. So with growth 3 and a watchtower you get pop/200 *(1,12 (growth multiplicator) + 0,05(admin multiplicator) )

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

well with the changed luck scale that´s not necessarily a benefit and I even forgot the supply bonus growth gets you.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Growth is a no brainer over Order?

Hrm. Actually with the adjusted scales getting points feels a little harder to accomplish. So, with Order you can safely take Misfortune 2 without as much detriment. Taking Growth not only limits your points because you no longer take Death. If you are playing outrageously large maps with Turns in the 100+ (or you give up because the micromanagment kills you) Growth will look very appealing, while if you are playing anything under 50 turns, Death is not quite so appealing because of the Gold hit.

Also the choice between Growth and Production is significant unless you Subscribe to the "National Armies are crap at all times and I am making a bunch of clams and bloodstones and whatever to remain competitive" strategy, then of course you might want to always choose Growth over Production.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Ok if you factor in free misfortune 2 points, then it makes sense to take order, however growth is by far the best choice if you are looking for huge amounts of cash.

For example if you play with growth3 order3 productivity 3 and a watchtower, your income will be ~50% higher after 30 turns, than someone´s who chooses only order 3 productivity3 .

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Unless those 120 Points you spent on Growth allowed you to expand ~50% faster or take Indeps of a greater caliber.

Growth only surpasses Order after turn 25 *if* there are no population damaging events or spells tossed into the mix. Even one population damaging event/spell in the first 20 turns will push that back quite a bit.

I have always felt that it's important that all points have an impact on both your strategy as well as the timeframe you are playing in. And as such, I can see where I would still take Death not only in timeframe (under 50 turn games) but also in strategy as well as Growth. Previously I (and only me) felt there was no need to take Growth for any of it's effects (Population/Gold/Supply). Now it may be possible to circumvent one scale with two others (Turmoil).

If it can be shown that Growth outperforms order on a variable slate of games/settings that exceeds it's points I would consider changing it. However, I have yet to see it because of the simple fact that Death is very attractive in *any* sort of game and it's not only spending points, but losing out on the points you could gain from Death.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

UPDATE: Look below for a newer Version of the mentioned Excel-sheet.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well back again with some dry math. This time I have used the right 0.3% value for the growth effect (and 6% for order, and 4% for growth). I have tried to take into account the reduction in bad events when taking order. So Order+2 vs. Growth+2, fueled by taking Luck-2, can be compared.

I've also used different values for the gold and growth boosts from taking growth and order in the different calculations. And the "reduction in bad events" bonus from taking order has also been fiddled with.

My conclusion is that "Growth+2, Luck-2" vs. "Order+2, Luck-2" accumulates the same amount of gold after about 50-80 turns, depending on how much of an influence you feel that order has on bad events.

All in all I get the feeling that the values of Order(6%) and Growth(4%, 0.3%) are about right. Maybe Growth(4%, 0.25%) would be better if it is a legal value.

I've attached the Excel-document used to make these comparisons (with comments). It should be usable as a testing template, when horsing around with different values of the scale parameters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Very nice sheet. I especially liked the part where you have the huge formula and just note "we assume the situation's mostly identical, therefore". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sure sign of a pro.

Might it be beneficial for the sheet to have some graphs if it were to be used as a testing template? I played with some plots but didn't come up with anything I'd consider too useful (like, a scatter plot of accumulated incomes of order/growth with different values or something...). Might not be a worth the trouble, especially if you intend to use the sheet just to bash your point in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hehehe - I take that as a compliment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I tried to come up with some graphs myself, but they weren't too informative, but I'll toy around with it, now that I know that someone has looked it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well it was never my intention to hammer any point through, I just got curious when Turin mentioned Growth being better than Order when considering income - that seemed a bit odd. And then I got thinking on: "How would I include the Order-event-frequency-reduction-effect in a simple semi-correct manner". It seems that growth is better than order even with this inclusion, but only in longish games, and in a way that seems balanced. Either you want more money early on and with a little more security (lesser risk of bad events that could cripple you economy early on) - then it's Order you want. Or you want more money in the long run, and have the time to wait - then it's Growth.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I probably won't need to tell you the benefits of visualizing when viewing that much data. But, whether you can find anything with any informational value in it, I don't know. Good luck (and, incidentally, Christmas).

I think your solution was quite elegant. After all, the effect of randoms is, well, random. But we're dealing with something that affects multiple provinces over multiple turns, so it'd average out on the long run. I'd say the values you have generated would represent the expected values of income over multiple games, each single realization differing a bit. Or something, English isn't my 1st language so this may be a bit incomprehensible.

Of course the actual value of Order's effect is up to debate. I'd maybe rate it a bit higher than 1/0.9 just because in the early game, an unlucky event has both greater chance to hit your capital (only few provinces) and greater impact on your game (a loss hurts more early). If you start with multiple provinces the beginning isn't that big a difference. But I'm a bit risk-averse.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Great comments Atul. You are quite right about the early-game risk of an event hitting your capitol, and that would hurt ones income badly, and that should raise the parameter somewhat above the "naïve" 1/0.90 value.

I have made some graphs on the sheet - it's all quite a bit more informative now.

It is obvious from the graphs that the value chosen for the "Order-effect-on-bad-events"-parameter plays a more important role than the other (well-known) parameters. This means that any conclusions drawn from this method are sensitive to ones choice of this parameter. My estimate of 1/0.90=1.11... for Order+2 came from the observation that in an Order+2 domain event frequencies are reduced by 10%. If a value of 1.40 is chosen (corresponding to an "effective reduction" in event frequencies of 14.2% pr. Order pick - an extreme value in my opinion, even in light of Atul's analysis), then the accumulated income from Growth+2 overtakes that from Order+2 at around turn 120. That indicates that if you are especially scared of an early income hit due to a bad event hitting your capitol (i.e. your private estimate of the parameter is close to 1.40) then Order is what you want even in a long game (with Zen's choice of scales).

I've attached the new and improved sheet to this post (and removed it from the other one above).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I've had a chance to read the data and I'm fairly satisfied with the results. Good job Ivan! It seems my calculations were a slightly off (I was less extreme on the event reduction than your latest spreadsheet).

As such, I think it would be a fair accessment to reduce the population effect of the scale to .25 (as far as I know this is a possible value). This would still give Order the single strongest gold% scale and still regulating Death as painful as other negative scales.

I will also be modifying the Temperature scale back down to 5%.

Barring that debate, anyone have any more feedback about the scales portion of the series? If it doesn't have any outstanding issues I haven't had a good hard look at I will move on in my work with the other aspects of the series.

What\'s the status?
 

Is there a README for the latest balance mods yet?

I'm going to launch a MP game in a few days and I'd like to use the latest or bestest Zen's Balance Mods. The MP game will be slightly non-conventional, in that it will be intended to be a shorter-running game with more international war all along instead of only at the end:

1. Two teams of two players each.
2. Not too large map -- maybe Inland, or The Desert Eye, or even a smaller one if I could find a smaller, wraparound, good-looking map.

Thanks!

Zooko

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...amp;PHPSESSID=

Re: What\'s the status?
 

What about the magic scale? Is it moddable? I always wondered what that 0.5 mr bonus/malus is good for, so magic+3 = magic+2 with respect to magic resistance? Why would it not be sensible to have a full point of mr?

Have you, Zen, or anyone lese, considered the balance of fatigue due to magic scales?

Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mod?
 

Zen, we are about to start a new game with your pretender balance mod. I have played with the 1.72 Version, and I loved it, but I do not know where to find a list of the changes in Version 2.0. There is no 'read me' file in the archive.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Zen posted a change log for the 2.0 Version in this thread. Clicking here should bring the post in question. If it doesn't work, then I got something wrong while making my link.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Didn't work.

How about this link:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...=20#Post318733

Thanks for drawing it to my attention!

Now what about the spell and scales readmes? :-)

update: Alneyan fixed the link to this:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...181#Post318733

update update: but Alneyan's link doesn't work for me -- it brings me to the beginning of the whole thread. :-P

Anyway, go to the 20th page of the thread and scroll down to post #318733.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Your link has your preferences about how many Posts should fit in a page, and the order of the Posts, so it only works with Users with the same preferences as yourself (the default ones). I know it brings me to the beginning of the post when I click on your link.

I think my link should now be working, but I haven't tested it yet while being logged out. The problem in my previous links was that I didn't mention on which thread I was (that is, I didn't give the number of the first post in the thread), which is something your own link did. Then my own link merely removes the part about preferences from your link, and it *should* work fine for everybody.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

The fixed link does not work indeed, though it looks like anything with the post number works so long as the creator of the link is logged in.

The post in question is about 35 Posts down in the thread. But for the sake of simplicity, I will paste it back here (giving its position in terms of page will not help Users without different settings).


These are the following changes to the Pretenders v2.0

There are some things which are limited by the Modding Tools availiable for Illwinter. One of which is a redistricting of Pretenders, along with other statistical, auto-summoning, battle-summoning, certain unit modifications, global modifications and others. The Conceptual Balance series is my concept of Balance of the Game to allow *everything* to be a viable and game mechanical worthy choice not specifically for theme. While there is no "best" there are certain Pretenders with certain nations better suited to various strategies. With this in mind, here are the changes.

** denote changes from the Last Version

Weapons (weapon nbr / weapon name / changes)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(61) Fire Breath +1 AOE
(62) Bile +2 AOE
(254) Plague Breath +1 Ammo +1 AOE
(4) Lance +1 Length
(357) Light Lance +1 Length

New Weapons:
(999) Wing Buffet dmg -5, att 0, def 1, length 5, aoe 1 (flail, bonus)
(998) Roar dmg -5, att 0, def 0, length 5, aoe 1 (flail, bonus)

Pretenders (monster nbr / monster name / changes)

Monster:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(973) Ancient Kraken +50 PR, +50 CR
(779) Divine Serpent Pathcost: 30
(265) Dragon (blue) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(266) Dragon (green) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(216) Dragon (red) +5 Prot, +2 Prec, +Wing Buffet
(226) Great Sage (r. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, **+Mountain Survival, +Wasteland Survival
(267) Frost Father (b. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Sailing, **+Mountain Survival
(268) Master Druid (g. Dragon) +8 HP, -2 Enc, **+Swamp Survival
(644) Dracolich **Basecost: 150, +8 Prot, +4 Prec, +Immortal, +Wing Buffet
(645) Bog Mummy **+25 FR, +Immortal
(Dracolich 2nd shape)
(462) Manticore +8 Prot, +2 Att, +2 Def, +Wing Buffet
(294) Nerid Basecost: 75, +Mounted
(608) Phoenix +Fire
(334) Golden Naga Basecost: 90, -2 Enc, +Mounted, +Body Slot, Dominion: 2
(157) Naga Basecost: 90, -2 Enc, +Mounted, +Body Slot, Dominion: 2, Stealth 0
(655) Scorpion King +Mounted, +Body Slot
(661) Shedu +2 Def, -2 Enc, +Wing Buffet, +Earth
(978) Great Black Bull Pathcost: 60, -2 Enc
(979) Great White Bull Pathcost: 60, -2 Enc
(269) Wyrm Basecost: 50, +4 Def

(138) Medusa +4 HP
(383) Prince of Death +100 CR, +100 PR
(215) Virtue +Astral, -Air


Giant:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(501) All-Father Pathcost: 50
(955) Asynja Basecost: 100, -2 Air, +Astral, +Nature, +Glamour, +Stealth 25
(156) Cyclops **+20% Forge Bonus
(109) Dagon +6 Def
(385) Daughter of the Land Basecost: 75, +Earth
(606) Great Mother -1 Enc
(603) Father of Serpents +3 Def, +2 Prec, Poison Cloud: 6
(858) Jade Emperor -1 Enc, +2 Prec
(964) Lord of Fertility +Awe +2, +Nature
(957) Lord of the Desert Sun +3 Def, +2 Prec, +Roar
(388) Lord of the Gates **Basecost: 75, +Fear, +Astral
(604) Lord of the Night Basecost: 125
(812) Lord of the Wild Basecost: 125
(387) Mother of Lions +3 Def, +Stealth 0, +Roar, +Nature
(961) Son of the Sea **Basecost: 100, -Water, +Earth, +Mapmove
(386) Son of the Sun (red) +2 Fire Gems
(384) Son of the Sun (white) Basecost: 75, +Fire
(602) Titan (Male) Basecost: 110, +1 Att, +1 Def, +1 Prec, +Mountain Survival, +Mapmove
(600) Titan (Female) +Nature
(652) Void Lord -Head Slot, Dominion: 3


Immobile:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(958) Colossal Head +Nature, +Blood
(1025) Divine Glyph Basecost: 75, +Immortal
(656) Fountain of Blood Pathcost: 30, +10 HP, +3 Blood Slaves
(158) Oracle Pathcost: 30, +10 HP, +2 Astral Gems
(657) Monolith +2 Nature Gems
(472) Sacred Statue Basecost: 30, Pathcost: 20, -Astral,


Human (rainbow):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(401) ***** Queen +5 Prec, +Stealth 0
(402) Crone (BQ 2nd shape) -3 Enc, +3 Prec
(246) Freak Lord +11 HP, -2 Enc, +Nature
(245) Arch Druid +11 HP, -2 Enc
(248) Arch Mage (Water) +11 HP, -2 Enc
(244) Arch Mage Basecost: 25, +11 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 2
(509) Arch Seraph Basecost: 50, +8 HP
(249) Crone = Hag Basecost: 25, +6 HP, -2 Enc, +3 Prec, +Iron Crutch
(250) Frost Father
= Rime Mariner Basecost: 45, +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Sailing
(270) Master Druid Basecost: 45, +8 HP, -2 Enc, +Swamp Survival
(251) Great Sage Basecost: 25, +8 HP, -2 Enc
(485) Great Enchantress Basecost: 45, +7 HP, -2 Enc, +Ethereal
(873) Great Seer of the Deeps Basecost: 45, +9 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 2, +Water
(486) Great Warlock -2 Enc, Dominion: 2, +Quarterstaff, +Fire
(550) Master Alchemist +9 HP, -2 Enc, +2 Prec, +Earth
(857) Smoking Mirror +5 HP, -2 Enc
(858) Smoking Mirror (Jaguar) +16 HP, -1 Enc, +7 Prec, +13 MR
(500) Skratti = Elder Skratti -1 Enc, +1 Att, +3 Def, +Blood
(653) Serpent King **+8 HP, -2 Enc, Dominion: 3
(654) Serpent King (Serpent) +16 HP, -2 Enc, +3 Def, +2 Prec
(874) Divine Emperor -2 Enc, Dominion: 3


(872) Ghost King Basecost: 110, Pathcost: 30
(180) Master Lich = Arch Lich **+1 Death Gems, +Disease Cloud 6
(179) Lich +50 FR
(395) Lich Queen +50 FR
(320) Saurolich +50 FR
(643) Bog Mummy +25 FR



Unedited Pretenders:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(607) Baphomet
(1026) Carrion Dragon
(601) Lady of Fortune
(120) Moloch
(956) Mother of Tuathas
(499) Nataraja
(605) Son of Niefel
(159) Sphinx
(862) Vampire Queen
(546) Void Lurker

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

when the items mod will be released? I would be rather interested to see if some cost are upped a bit (namely sanguine rod to slow rampant blood harvest, and associating soul contract with an astral cost eg)

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Why ASTRAL cost to Soul Contract? Shouldn't that be Fire?

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

I actually have a beta of the rest of the mods. I haven't released them due to time and effort constraints. I may get up the energy to put on some finishing touches and send them out for people to play.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Thank you for this very nice mod! I am sure that is a lot of work. Worth it!

(I have read through about 60% of the comments on this exceptionally long thread, but my connection crashed at one point and I had to restart and I came back after 2 days and forgot where I left off, I think I missed a bit.)

Would you mind a tiny bit of feedback/questions?

- I am unsure if I have the most up-to-date material, despite just having re-DLed from your site; in the .zips I have, there are now no readmes, and we are explicitly asked to check those for info.

- I love about 85% of your changes to the pretenders. There are great niches opening up there. (Maybe there could be a new pretender, related to the lich: the Niche?) The niches I failed to see (or the balance-related issues therein) which have not already been beaten to a dead horse state on this thread were:
- The D.Glyph. What are you envisioning? I had always liked him as an evil lurker, and now he is... what? Combat hungry?
- What was wrong with the Octopus in the heating vent?
- Did I miss the discussion on the Phoenix? I played him with his new strength, and it seemed just too easy for Marignon to get a F9 A4 now. I had often chosen the P. before, and although your mod opens up so many new flavors, it seems that if I am wanting Fire and Air (or Fire and Air and more) and immortality, I dont see too many other options. Why the f2? Have you considered raising his new magic path learning cost to 100 then?

With the new scales, the general twist of which I really like, I am not finished, but I when monkeying around, I found in general that I no longer find Order appealing to races which do even a tiny bit of patrolling or have any troops with armor or which may be interested in luck. Actually, I found with Machaka, Ryleh, Abysia default, Mari default, and Man LoT that Production helped me much more than Order, and since Growth synergizes now so well (if you are thinking about taking any luck -- and now there is even more reason to actually want to do so: Synergy #3) with Prod for income, that I found Order to be unappealing. I am not saying this is "bad", but since I am not done with testing yet, I dont want to put this in too rigid a normative framework. I just wanted to know what you and the others think: If it turns out that Order is actually unappealing, then it could be a no-brainer. I am not saying it is so now. I will have to see by tweaking your mod myself maybe back to Order 7 and giving it another run-through or 17.

Anyhow, thanks for your effort and also your time in reading and replying here.

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

ScalesMod 1.2 availiable at the webpage.

Stock are the unmodified values and Mod are the modified values replacing the stock. Rareevents is the likelyhood of the higher caliber of Luck events (Random Events are divided into two types, common and rare) per event.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Scale Stock Mod

Productivity/Sloth Gold 2% Gold 4%
Resources 10% Resources 15%
Growth/Death Gold 2% Gold 4%
Population .02% Population .03%
Luck/Misfortune Event 10% Event 13%
RareEvent 15% RareEvent 20%</pre><hr />

Zen tested, Zen approved.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

a sloppy and incomplete summary of changes in spellmod 1.8:


Summon Cave Drake Cost: E8 (E11)
Summon Fire Drake Cost: F8 (F11)
Summon Ice Drake Cost: W8 (W11)
Summon Sea Serpent Cost: W8 (W11)
Summon Animals Cost: N10 (N20)

Summon Air Elemental Cost: 100 ft + 1A
Summon Earth Elemental Cost: 100 ft + 1E
Summon Fire Elemental Cost: 100 ft + 1F
Summon Water Elemental Cost: 100 ft + 1W

Earth Elementals of any size now have prot 15. Dunno what they used to
have.
Fire Elementals now have the following hp for the different sizes:

30, 27, 24, 21, 18, 15

dunno what they used to have. Elementals have more hp than you think,
because if there is 30-hp elemental and the enemy whacks it with 50
damage, then there is a 27 hp elemental left! Earth Elementals are
cool because they regen, too.

Water Elementals now have the following defense:

17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12

Ice Elementals now have the following protection:

15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10

Ice Elementals now have the following weapons different than standard:

(831) Ice Elemental +2 Icicle Fist, -2 Fist
(832) Ice Elemental +2 Icicle Fist, -1 Fist
(833) Ice Elemental +1 Icicle Fist, -1 Fist
(844) Ice Elemental +1 Icicle Fist, -1 Fist
(855) Ice Elemental +1 Icicle Fist, -1 Fist
(866) Ice Elemental +1 Icicle Fist, -1 Fist

Ice Elementals now have cold, "iceprot", fire resistance -50, coldres
100, amphibian, magicbeing, neednoteat, poisonres 100. Dunno what they
used to have.

Living Fire, cost 100 ft + 1F
Living Clouds, cost 100 ft + 1A
Living Water, cost 100 ft + 1W
Living Earth, cost 100 ft + 1E

Revive Bane Lord Cost: D15 (D10)
Raven Feast Cost: A2 (A5)
Contact Harbinger Cost: S20 (S25)
Angelic Host Cost: S45 (S50)
Ether Gate Cost: S80 (S90)

Wild Hunt: research level 7 (?), Cost: G40 (?)
Ghost Riders: pathlevel 6 (?)
Enchanted Forest: Cost: 50G (?)
Tartarian Gate: Cost 25? (?)

(469) King of Mountains (Oreigenes) -1 Enc, +Regeneration (10 %)
(906) King of Deeper Earth (Barathrus) -1 Enc
(470) Father Illearth (Pedoseion) -1 Enc

(403) Horned Serpent +12 HP, +2 Prot, +5 AP
(628) Great Lion +8 HP, +3 Def
(924) Iron Pig +9 MR, +2 Att, +3 Def
(438) Kraken +3 Att, +100 PR, +Recuperation

(518) Troll +3 Att, goldcost 15
(519) Troll King +3 Att
(564) Sea Troll +3 Att, -Fist, +Claw (29), goldcost 15
(580) Sea King +3 Att

(932) Hama Dryad +10 Prot, -25 FR, -2 Mapmove, +someweaponidon'tknowwhat
(578) Bog Beast +1 Mapmove
(925) Tarrasque +4 Prot, +4 Prec, +1 Mapmove, +Roar

(361) Vine Man +7 Prot, +3 Def, -25 FR
(362) Vine Ogre +5 Prot, +5 Def, -25 FR
(931) Ivy King +3 Prot, +5 Def, +5 Prec

(511) Winter Wolf +5 Prot, +2 Str, +Stealth
(512) Fall Bear +5 Prot, +3 Att, +Claw
(513) Spring Hawk +2 HP, +5 Prot
(515) Summer Lion +5 Prot, +Fireshield (weak)

(534) Corpse Construct +10 HP, +5 Prot, +10 MR, +4 Att, +5 Def, +100 SR, +someweapondunnowhat
(314) Mandragora +Entangle
(476) Lumber Construct +4 Att, -Fist, +Crush

(626) Fallen Angel +4 Att, +Divine Garb
(464) Harbinger +3 Att, +Divine Garb
(465) Arch Angel +4 Att, +Divine Garb
(543) Angel of the Host +4 Att, +Divine Garb

(399) Divine Garb 9 Prot, 0 Enc, 0 Def

(776) Tartarian Monstrum +2 Misc Slots, +Wing Buffet
(777) Tartarian Monstra +Mounted, +Body Slot

(980) Vengeful Treelord +10 Str, +10 Att, +2 Prec, +25 FR, +100 PR, Ldr 75-0-75, +Regeneration (10 %), +Recuperation, +Entangle +3 Nature Gems, +4 someotherkindofgems, +Reinvigoration 5

Well this is taking too long. This list is incomplete.

--Z

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hi there,
May I suggest another minor change in the spells ? Its about Melancholia. Seems very weak in comparison with the other 'artillery' spells like Leprosy or Murdering Winter. Kills 5-10% of the units (IF ordinary units with 10 or 11 MR and mrl, less if elite). Kills 1 or 2 dominion candles. Temporary shifts dominion toward sloth.
Frankly I've never seen this spell in a game, and I even cant imagine any use for the price...
So I suggest to reduce the cost to 10 or 12 gems (instead of 20) and Earth4 (or even 3) as requirement.
Any thought ?

Re: Is there a \'read me\' file for the pretender mo
 

Do you think the item and units mod could be released in the near future? I was thinking of creating a sort of experiment game using all your mods, but that would probably be better with all the mods.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen,

I'm playing around with your spell mod, and noticed that Treelords receive no bonus when summoning vine beings, in contrast to their description. On closer inspection... you put #clearspec in the Treelord mods, which probably is the reason.

One other note - you changed the AOE for fire breath, but the fire breath that was changed was the Dragon God firebreath, not the fire drake which is actually in the spell mod. The have the same name ("Fire Breath") but different numbers.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Seems to me that heat and cold are no longer very important. What with both prod and growth giving 4% income, the 5% loss from the temp doesnt look like very much, when you consider that:
-the 10% supplies is of very marginal use
-4% income, 20% supplies, and .3% growth is much better than 5% income and 10% supplies
-in most cases 4% income and 15% resources is better than 5% income and 10% supplies
-1/4 of the time the scale will be closer to the desired temp (if you take it all the way to 3), so if you take cold 3 with a nation that prefers neutral temp, it will only act as (on average) 13.75% income loss, which is actually less damaging than only 2 turmoil points.

I think it would be better off being at least as damaging if not more so to help maintain the temperature as part of a nation's flavor, so I would suggest making it 7% income loss, just like the order scale. That way nations will typically stick with their prefered temp, but if you want to take some cold to e.g. help your ice devils, 1 point of order would make up for that. Now, I don't think this is possible with the modding tools, but it would be even better to make it hurt income and something else (resources?) to avoid just simply doubling up the order scale...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Just some quick suggested changes to the pretender descriptions:



Oracle description:
"The Oracle is tremendously strong in it's Dominion and magically powerful. Within it's sacred waters heavenly light gathers forming two Astral pearl each season."
should be
"The Oracle is tremendously strong in its Dominion and magically powerful. Within its sacred waters heavenly light gathers to form two Astral pearls each season." (it's -&gt; its; it's -&gt; its; pearl -&gt; pearls; forming -&gt; to form)

-- Son of the Sun (Fire) description:
"The Son of the Sun is a demigod of immense size claiming the divine heritage of the sun."
should be
"The Son of the Sun is a demigod of immense size claiming the divine heritage of the Sun." (sun -&gt; Sun)
also
"The sun has gifted it's heir with such heat that once per season he receives two Fire gems."
should be
"The Sun has gifted its heir with such heat that once per season he receives two Fire gems." (sun -&gt; Sun; it's -&gt; its)

Hag description:
"The Hag is also a master of magic and can be adept in several of the magic Paths."
I would capitalize 'magic' also because when you said the same thing in the Rime Mariner's description you had it capitalized, so in the interest of consistancy:
"The Hag is also a master of magic and can be adept in several of the Magic Paths." (magic -&gt; Magic)
Also, I would make the same change in the old crone's (now a hag also?) new description.

Monolith description:
"...but it can possess willing targets in order to make it's will heard and to perform tasks such as forging items for enchantment"
should be
"...but it can possess willing targets in order to make its will heard and to perform tasks such as forging items for enchantment." (it's -&gt; its)
also
"Druids perform monthly rituals of harvest and nature at the Monolith, focusing the energy into the form of two Nature gems during seasonal festivals."
I would change to:
"Druids perform monthly rituals of harvest and nature at the Monolith, focusing the energy into the form of two Nature gems." (removed 'during seasonal festivals')

#end

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

*Agrees with The Tauren about spelling changes* There is also the same it's =&gt; its in the mod descriptions.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

One concern about your Spell Mod with which we are doing now a game :
Aim gives 100 precision but eagle eyes you left unchanged .

That is imo an unfair advantage for nations like caelum and vanheim compared to nations with nature magic like pangenea .

Otherwise the mod is great , some well thought changes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

My mages always want to cast aim on archers instead of themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Perhaps this is why. Or could just be an oversight.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The precision Aim gives cannot be changed. Are you sure you haven't confused the precision the spell is casted with (100 with Mind Burn, 1 with Falling Fires, -3 with Cloud of Death) with the precision bonus the spell gives?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Oh i thought precisision 100 means that Aim gives now + 100 Precision . But you are probably right . Thanks for the clarification Endoperez http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, why did you increase the power of the Vine Ogre? I think if any summon deserves a nerf, that is it (besides the Devil and Fiend of Darkness.)

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I second that.
I would have given the vine ogre -5 attack instead of +5 Def and +5 Prot...