Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

However you want to twist it the reality is that humans are good at adapting. But an average human is pretty weak. It's hard to compare a TRAINED human and an animal, since animals hardly practice anything but their natural talents at all.

Like it's very hard to measure the strength of apes. Since it's next to impossible to get them interested in it. How are you going to tell a gorilla 'now lift that car please' - they don't care enough.

Wonder why humans trained dogs to pull sleds. If people are more durable?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes but noone outruns a W9 blessed Van http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Back to topic !!

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That was subtle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

On the other hand you cant compare an untrained human since he/she would be dead quickly in the wild.


A pack of dogs need less tents/booze/money to pull a sled than a group of humans would.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Why do humans train dogs to pull a sled? Why did some humans make other humans slaves? Why do some humans hire other humans to clean their toilets? Is it about durability or is it about avoiding hard/disagreable work? I do not think you can use this argument to say humans are less durable, just that we tend to be lazy.

As for the issue of training, put aside ideas of modern humanity and go back 4000 years. Humans then tended to use their bodies a lot more than we do today. The average human then could be more fairly compared to an average wild animal. We did not die in the wild and our durability had something to do with it. Our brains are great, but they need the body to execute their plans. In Dominions terms (vain effort to stay on topic) a nation with 100 Sages and no infantry will be quickly over run by 100 slingers... You need both body and brains. If we are as weak as some suggest, how did we ever survive this long?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

My point-which got out of hand and went badly (but I don't think boringly) off-topic-is that Van and Hel have weaknesses which can be exploited by an experienced player. And so I suggest: 1-if you want to beat Van, learn how to beat Van, and 2-if you don't think there's a good way to beat Van, petition for more lines of strategy, quite a few of which I suggested up there in the thread not too far back. This is after all a game of strategy, and in war all is fair. If you think this or any other computer or board game is a comprehensive strategy simulation, I direct you to Sun Tzu's the Art of War and Caesar's campain in Gaul, for starters.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

It makes no sense to try to fix a few overpowered units which are obviously out of whack with everything else available by designing new strategies for 10-15 other nations. Effectively, that's a game redesign. You don't redesign a whole game to fix a minor design error, regardless of how serious that error's effects are. First, it'll take ages - it's equivalent to designing 4 or so nations from scratch, which means it will take a year or so at the rate Illwinter can work. Second, with that much major redesign, it's a guarrantee that there will be something overpowered in those dozen major strategy alterations, so *that* needs to be fixed, presumably by another round of major strategy alterations by half the nations...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Wow, we're way off topic.

Anyway, you have it backwards. We became so physically weak because, thanks to a larger brain, we discovered we no longer needed claws, fur, etc. "Devolution" in action, a trait which is not needed atrophies. In 1000 years I predict most people will be nearly blind.

But there are a few human physical traits which still exceed those of most animals... vision is an obvious one, and endurance is a big one too. (What use is having a disciplined brain capable of focusing on tracking the same animal for several days if your body can't keep up?)

In the tortise vs. hare race, humans are the tortise, and we win every time.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

This stuff is interesting on Van, but I think I'm playing a different game. The biggest difference is that I play against the AI, but I also ratchet down the money, etc and I make R&D as expensive as possible. Vanheim does not seem to be the problem described here.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Again, the AI doesn't really have the necessary coding to pull off a Bless strategy.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Even now there's multiplayer games where people are complaining about someone taking a double or triple bless strategy and the nation(s) are not just Vanheim, but Mictlan, and Neifelheim.
The issue is not that Vanheim is too strong... it's that Vanheim is too strong while using dual bless strategy during blitz games. If Vanheim is not using a bless strategy then there's no issue with this capital only sacred unit.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Is the issue then perhaps not vanheim at all? maybe its something to do with blessings? ▄

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Blind in 1000 years? No, vision is too important in our societies, look at computers, driving, reading and so forth. You still get reproductive advantages from vision. I can see a rise in other things, like hereditary diseases controlled by medication, but not loss of vision.

As for the topic, I still argue for a boosting of the price (gold and/or resources) of the units in question. Reducing their numbers retains the flavour and option of using the strategy, but makes massing and rushing with them a bit harder. It is an easy fix technically, addresses both the SP and MP grumbles and does not impact other nations too much. Strangely, I recall a certain developer mentioning that they planned to do just such a thing in an upcoming patch, so why don’t we wait and see how it works out?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

What do you base this on?:/ A hare can travel in an hour what takes weeks for a tortoise. Now, if a hare does this every third day the tortoise must live thousands of years to make up for what the hare can travel in it's lifetime. Or do your tortoises live an unlimited amount of years?:)

No [censored] this is off topic!

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ever heard of Aisopos? Aisopoksen sadut? Kumpi kilpajuoksun voittikaan, jänis vai kilpikonna? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If Aisopos had been a cook, the tortoise would have been a soup, and the hare cooked in the oven. The order would have stayed the same: slower comes first.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes, the issue is with imprisoned pretenders, which gives so many extra points for blessings, while still maintaining decent scales. The best suggestion I've heard for fixing this is that blessings shouldn't work if your god isn't awake yet (dead is OK).

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Hrmpf.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Incidentally, I have tortoise in my garden and he can move a surprisingly quickly when so inclined. He mostly just sits in the sun, enjoying himself, but occasionally gets in a mood and goes marching across the garden at a decent speed.

With a water blessing, he could become quite dangerous… He eats many things, but particularly likes the lower bits of my cactus, so I have him down for short weapon length armor piercing attacks and heavy armor. He is grumpy and won’t do what I want, so I would argue for high morale as well. Probably a good unit to have on your side…

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Tortoises are also surprisingly stealthy. And they will converge on the back door from all directions when given a recognisable, audible signal (Good discipline? intelligence rating). It is best if a snack is involved.

They have been around much longer than humans or hares. It may be that They Shall Inherit The Earth....after battling it out with the obviously capable cockroaches.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

To revive this topic: Vanheim is imba. Seriously. Just a day ago i was playing Ctis vs Vanheim. I had huge armies of conventional (no summons) armies, both high protection and trampler, and i was slaughtered on almost every fight. I feel like Glamour is WAY too powerful.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

The first game I played I had huge problems with a Van AI. I eventually prevailed by liberal use of magic and summoned creatures. My progress had been impeded to the point that others eventually crushed me, but I did not feel that the Van were too tough. I simply did not understand how to handle them. Perhaps I was wrong?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Look at glasses/contact lenses. We'll be able to "see" unaided... see badly, but well enough to find the glasses on the table.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I was referring to the Aesop fable, speaking metaphorically...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ooh! Since this way off topic anyway--

The tortoise starts with a lead of a foot.
After a given period of time, the hare, traveling faster than the tortoise, will have made up this lead. But the turtle will have moved forwards, creating a new gap, which must be filled in a given time, after which the tortoise again has move, ad nauseum.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Actually, that only works only up to a certain point. You see, you are measuring ever shorter and shorter and shorter amounts of time, and thus, won't actually cover more time of the hare's run than what is needed for the first few leaps. You aren't thinking of what happens once the hare gets to where the tortoise already is, and it will get there - that point is the first one you are ignoring with your time-trick!

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm ignoring much more. That is one of Zeno's paradoxes, ancient problems of the greeks.

The problem here is actually a misunderstanding of infinites. The series is actually convergent to 1/0, not 0. I don't really want to go over the math here, but suffice to say that my conclusion is totally wrong.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm really interested in knowing what series is "convergent to 1/0" in the Zeno's paradox story. The way I see it, the time series is simply convergent to a finite, non-zero value, which is exactly the time where the arrow (hare) will catch up with the runner (tortoise).

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm not sure what are you trying to say here. The serie obviously converges to {lead}/({speed of hare}-{speed of tortoise}) (that's obvious because it's just the gap divided by speed of gap reduction). I'm not sure if the original mentiones that hare travels faster than tortoise, but I think it's implied. So there isn't any infinities involved here. If one wants to express it through the serie, as in fable, that's a simple geometric serie and the limit was known very long time ago, not sure if the fable predates this knowledge or not.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Actually, the mathematical status of series, and infinites, and limits, was a problem until surprisingly recently. One version of the story was from Jean de La Fontaine, a 17th century French fabulist; at the same time, mathematicians knew how to take limits of sequences and series, but typically did not do this rigorously.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Wasn't geometric progression considered by Euclid? Unlike most serie analysis it doesn't require rigorous definition of limits and infinities. Rather obvious multiplication by (1-p) allows to find the limit through other means, but I'm again uncertain when those techniques were developed.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ignore. No idea why I said 1/0.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I've tried to cast body etheral on vans (with midgard) and mirror image seems to be turned off (some vans on the battlefield look like they were hit). Am I wrong ? (maybe did they receive some arrows). If it's true, is-it the same for all buffs ?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Woah, necro-bump.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yup. Didn't remember it was so old.

But the question seems fitted to this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I do that all the time-I figure as long as it's Dom3 material, it's fair game.

I had a lot of good ideas a hundred years ago! why go to all the trouble of coming up with new ones, when I can just dredge them up?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

100% positive that it's not the case with all buffs. I've used Strength of Giants, Legions of Steel, Iron Warriors, and Mistform on Glamour-ized troops without it knocking off the mirror images. I don't see why Body Ethereal would be any different, and in fact I'm pretty sure I've used Body Ethereal as well without that effect. Something else must have dispelled the images on your troops.

-Max

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I did not read this whole thread, but i think pikemen should get a 1st strike with a big attack bonus against mounted units.

That solves the van problem for several nations.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Over the weekend, I played a SP game as EA Vanheim, as it seemed the easiest way to make sure I did not have to face them in the end game, yet again. Tried out the water/fire bless and was astounded. They are, quite simply, hugely powerful. I know I am repeating my earlier arguments in the thread, but having played them, it is stunning. I had fun and enjoyed the mages with E3 and a shot at E4 on a random. Throw on some boots of earth and that earth booster spell and you have an E5 or E6 mage. Blade Wind forever! I did not touch the blood magic and stopped research altogether once I realized the power of Blade Wind forever. I did not even bother attacking other nations protection, but that would have boosted the effect even more. No need to buff troops, even though those spells are available in the Earth school. I have not explored this nation much, but if it has the hidden gems like most other races, there is more strength in it yet.

The only problem I ever faced was a batch of blessed flaggelents! I had no archers, and this was before Blade Wind, so I lost some of my troops killing them hand to hand. I had considered recruiting indy archers on the therory that they would be very safe behind my powerful infantry, but couldn't be bothered, there was no need!

Sure, this was single player and sure, Blade Wind is not as valuable in MP (though I would be interested to see a team of E mages casting destruction and blade wind), but this nation is damn strong. Too damn strong.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

With the exception of a vocal minority, you are pretty much preaching to the choir.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I just read through this entire thread.

I have to say my opinions of a couple of posters changed a bit. I won't say any more on that matter.

Just for the record I'm totally sold on the argument that Vans are overpowered, singleplayer or multiplayer wise. I also think the CB mod does a good job of toning this down resulting in a more enjoyable game.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I've come to the conclusion that they are somewhat unbalanced. I don't think I agree that they're untouchable supermen, but definitely more than fairly endowed.

Rather than nerf them though, I'd really like to see the weakest nations in the game boosted-and the more powerful nations diversified-until we get a more even playing field, without taking away from the appeal of playing Helheim/Vanheim.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with Vanheim/Helheim being very strong-they work as very strong nations, or we wouldn't be complaining. I just think the problem is with some other nations needing help.

There are definitely nations that make mince out of Vanheim/Helheim-Niefelheim does, for instance, and Tien Chi. That's because those nations are strong too, and because they have specific talents to combat Van/Hel. The problem isn't that Van/Hel is unbeatable unless you weigh the odds, though, it's because there aren't enough other nations that can stand toe-to-toe to them, where you might win, but you might not. Niefelheim beats them, Tien Chi beats them, other nations beat them, but what gives them a run for their money?

Van and Hel are tough to beat because they're put together well, and because they can exploit the weakness of others while protecting themselves against being exploited right back.
You don't have a chance against them playing some nations, unless your opponent is a 12 year old moron-and that's because they can pick weak nations apart-that's the problem, not that they're, by themselves, too strong.

So why wreak a couple of perfectly good, interesting nations just because they work too well? just fix the ones that are broken-and in the process, make me more good, interesting units and spells to play with.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't think people want to start discussing this whole thing over again HB. If you read through the thread I think the point you make is addressed - when it comes to balance it's easier and it makes more sense to tone down the very overpowered stuff of 1 or 2 nations than go about improving the other 15 or so.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

OK, maybe were they shot by arrows. Thanks for the answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

HoneyBadger, how does Tien Chi beat Vanheim?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Velusion,

Oh yes, I am preaching to the choir, I am even part of it back on page 6 or so! The only reason I posted is to highlight that the nation is even stronger than I thought it was when I joined the choir...

HB,

You are right, it would be better to boost everyone else, but I think that limiting just one is probably a simpilier answer. Also, for the single player crowd, Vanheim (like Ermor in Dom II) does seem to really stand out as needing attention. In MP, it is different. It makes balance even trickier.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I would like to eat humble pie and say I have completely changed my mind on Helheim/Vanheim, they are overpowered. I am in 3 MP's at the mo and in 2 Helheims totally dominating the game. In another I am playing EA Oceania, fighting Helheim and its like banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall.

Furthermore, a very nasty strategy seems to have developed when playing Helheim. Essentially, Helheim gets globals up as follows, in one game forge of ancients then well of misery by turn 30'ish. In another well of misery/eternal pyre.

The thrust of this strategy seems 2 fold, research construction to get the unque artifacts/general bling, research conjuration to get all the water, air queens, tartarians and earth kings, fire kings etc....

So you end up with a MP in which Helheim has a huge gem income and a multitude of supercombatants, kitted out and is of course Helheim on top! Unless basically everyone else allies against Helheim, which players seem disinclined to do lately its game over.

The speed of Helheims research is very, very scarey...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I strongly disagree. Boosting everyone else (or just some weaker nations) is a baad idea.

If you simply tone Vanheim down, you're changing balance of Vanheim vs C'tis, Vanheim vs Machaka, Vanheim vs Marignon, Vanheim vs Bandar Log.... In short, Vanheim vs EveryoneElse.

BUT if you decide to boost, say, Bandar Log and Ulm, you're changing over 2x more balance relations. Bandar Log vs (EveryoneElse-1), Bandar Log vs Ulm, Ulm vs (Everyone Else-1). Geometric scale ! Why balance several things at a time if you could safely balance just one ?

Meglobob: this is very interesting, because some people argued Vanheim/Helheim should rule early game because they supposedly don't have late game.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't see how anyone who understands anything about Dom3 could claim they don't have end game power. Just look at their magic paths: earth, air, death! Those are some weak paths, right? Sure they are.

Also, the raiding power of their stealthy troops never goes away.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I think the main thing people worry about is taking away the unique powers that the heims have. I'm all fine with leaving them as is... just increase the gold/resource cost.

There is a certain white wizard here who likes to answer every issue with "but it all depends on how big your map is!". In the past I've let that go, because it sounds like a good point. However I'd like to debunk that thought now. The rate at which the heims can grow is astounding. The extra provinces they gain in the early game more than makes up for any losses in the scale department - plus more provinces = more gems. So in the mid/late game they have a very large empire with a superpower pretender and no real negatives.

But IMHO the biggest reason to tone them down is that it is NOT FUN to get creamed by them so early in the game. It doesn't matter how you design your nation, the vast majority of them cannot even hope to stand against an early attack by the heims and it is in their best interest to kill you quickly.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

1) Super strong early expansion
2) Very strong research- hammers + skulls + quills
3) Very strong combat magic
4) Strong death mages for powerful summonings.
5) Unmatched hit and run capabilities
6) Assuming a F/W bless they've got a strong mage in 5/8 of the magic paths
7) Even a taste of blood magic if you're feeling frisky

Yep, sounds like the recipe for a weak end game to me.

The only thing worse than early game Helhiem is late game Helhiem.