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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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Andy |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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Checking back to emails Andy and I exchanged last Febuary we had discussed doing this but the basic change had already been made to the snow vehicle class and other things came up and it fell off the radar. It's back on the to-do list now. Don |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
One easy solution in regards to tunnels, would to simply make another unit type, like bunkers, but connected with a capacity limit. I'm thinking about the cave and tunnel complexes that the Japanese used in the Pacific theater. Think about all the fortfication zones used throughout the world. I would think it's a very common aspect of warfare.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
There are caves in the game (and spider holes and hiding pits etc...), but I dont remember if they can house other units inside them.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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Class fortifications, armour = 99 except for front. Finland has units which are of the class fortification and have a carry capacity > 100, i.e. can hold towed guns and their crew. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
May be increase the cost MP shooting mode button "Z" ?
To do instead of 4-5 volleys 1-2. This would reduce the effectiveness of fire no LOS. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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But if a unit enters a "fortification" hex it gets no benefit from that fortification for a turn or so (try moving a unit from hex to hex along a trench line sometime as a test). |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
When using two or more artillery observers it is sometimes a bit awkward to keep track of which battery is assigned to which observer particularly with a long list of batteries. Would it be possible to have an extra button in the bombardment screen showing the observer for each artillery piece or battery ? I don't know if it would be possible to implement this or not, has anyone got any other suggestions ?
Regards, Warwick |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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What you must do is too make sure you select the observer with the LOS to target before opening the Bombardment screen. Once, you've opened the Bombardment screen, check the lower left of the screen to make sure the correct observer is selected. One of the elements that make winSpMBT exciting is that the art of battle management is interwoven within it's fabric, such as plotting artillery fires. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
It would be great if all armed helicopters (Mi-8, UH-1D and etc.) placed in section "Gunship".
No armed helicopters leave as is. Armed helicopter very effective in SP. For them, the need to limit air strikes. Who would use house rules for their limitations. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Depends a LOT who you're fighting.
VS modern Chinese/Russian forces attack helos are less then useful because of all the VIRSS. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Armed helicopters in the SPMBT in unlimited quantities decide the outcome of the battle. Unless the enemy is ready.
If you have a conventional land forces (tanks, infantry, armored personnel carriers, howitzers, AA-defence, little helicopters), the opponent will sweep you. Enemy air defenses will be diverted (entice shots) flying helicopters (fly far and fast :rolleyes:) and then destroyed. Enemy armed helicopter (best anti helicopter air defense) will be destroyed by our helicopters from a distance 1-2 hex. Next, the detection of enemy ground forces and their destruction with impunity their ground troops backed by helicopters. In SPMBT in any armed helicopters are very strong with the skillful use. It is not in their ATGM-weapon. Machine guns and Hydra, S-5, S-8 very effective at a distance of 1-2 hex. Such mechanics SPMBT that the armed helicopter is capable of a lot. :cool: |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I used to play a guy that liked using helos, the totally gamey easy defence is to buy loads of the cheapest fast AA armed vehicle. Just swarm him driving the survivors adjacent before opening fire. Heavy losses but they are so cheap you will win. Becomes harder if they have TI but if most don't you can hide behind your wrecks to help close range.
Your really just doing what most people do with helos, draw fire with the cheaper stuff to protect the important ones. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Thank you, I know it.
Steel Panthers so good that you do not know what awaits you in the new battle. SP a great replayability ! At the moment helicopters in the right hands can be too much. This reduces replayability so I always have to spend points on the powerful air defense. What I propose to deliver us, experienced players on the house rules. Newcomers to the Steel Panthers did not know these nuances will be upset at first (with the words - those stupid helicopters). :) |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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With regards to helos I just used to have a rule that you could only use helos every 3 or 4 games as planes are far more common. Others can do related but make up your own. If you want to use a lot of helos all units except the HQ must start loaded Ammo units can only be used for one purpose, you are allowed to rename them so you know which is which & can only resupply the correct unit types. Arty AAA Helo ATGM Tank Troop Helos are very dangerous, they are also pretty rare, unfortunately people tend to use them to much just like they tend to buy the best tank, ATGM etc. The game doesn't control force makeup that's what your house rules are for to give you battles you think are realistic. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
In winSP need horizontally.
Now, there are complaints from people, it is difficult to distinguish the relief map. Like this: http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...psbcserp0i.png |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
That is what the Hex grid is for. Press '.' and the grid appears making this boundaries clearer . Then press '.' and go back to a non hex grid map. I NEVER play without the hex grid...... to each his own but there is NO way we are adding in what you suggest when a quick press of '.' gives you what you want.
As for " Now, there are complaints from people, it is difficult to distinguish the relief map"....... REALLY ?? the map has not changed in over a decade. How could these complaints suddenly materialize now ? Don |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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I bring you their requests and ideas. http://spanther.narod.ru/ |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
My colleague from Russia made a video with their ideas for improving the Steel Pantners.
https://youtu.be/gfsvbQJwPYE Advanced Scar asked me to say further. With the last sentence he asks tool to translate the game into other languages. |
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Units etc. its not straight forward some names do not simply translate as the West calls it something else. Boring but not hard to edit OOB, if several people pick a country each to change names on & share them would not take that long. I change the names of some formations in WWII, makes it far easier for me to identify quickly on purchase screen. I don't bother changing unit names though. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
For what it is worth I think attack helicopters are a little too good against AFV's and a little less effective than they should be against infantry.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I've always had a problem with machineguns.
They're VERY effective at suppression, not so good at actually killing anything. Since their advent machineguns have been the #2 bane (after artillery) of infantry, but in the game they're more of a nuisance. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Agree with Suhiir on MG's
Even a relatively primitive attack helicopters, with MG's, could really wreck an enemy force if they have low training/moral and lack effective AA, such as Manpads. In terms of something very modern like an Apache go check out some of the YouTube videos of them in action against men on foot, not just the overwhelming firepower, but how much they can see in all conditions... |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I actually find the machineguns quite alright and I disagree with making them (or any small arms) deadlier than now.
Remember that what MG have over rifle squads is range. They can engage the latter between 600-1200 meters (more if .50 cal MGs) and not get any return fire. And the reason why they do not mow down infantry is that the latter is always in cover when under fire, even when in open ground (they find whatever small obstacle or ditch there is, they are always in the prone position). And something else. The fact that a rifle squad has been spotted does not mean its members have been spotted. It may sound like an oxymoron, but what may have been spotted is increased activity, a single soldier etc (in that department another game, Combat Mission series is better at simulating this). So the MG (or any other weapon system) may hose an area with few exposed enemies. My thoughts on the matter. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Attack helicopters, with cannon, should, most certainly, IMHO, be more deadly to infantry, than they are now in the game, SF Machine Guns should, again in my view, make it a lot harder to move than they do now in the game.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
IMO, effectiveness of any weapon against a specific target type is subject to too many situational circumstances to support generalization.
I believe the current conflicts in open, arid or mountainous terrain has magnified the effectiveness of Helibourne weapon platforms against Infantry, especially at night. Slow movement, lack of concealment or detection range reducing terrain/vegetation have produced videos of effective cannon fire against dismounted targets especially when in close formation in darkness or restrictive terrain. Attack Helicopters outside of air superiority situations rely on staying on the edge of the battle area and making pop-up attacks on targets worth the expenditure of expensive weapons. The cannons firstly were thought of as close range defense for the helo. AC helos are IMO, not stable AC platforms and are more suppressive in effects against dispersed Infantry in other than clear terrain and are acceptable as modeled in game. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I think you could make a fairly strong case that attack helicopters in the game are not vulnerable enough to AAA and manpads certainly. That would also serve to make them less effective against more advanced enemies.In my view even small arms fire, at close range, should have a very small chance of damaging a gunship and either bringing it down or making it bugger off.
I still think, in general, they are a bit too effective against Armour and not effective enough against soft vehicles and infantry, especially when the targets are moving. With regard to special conditions making the Apache look especially deadly: Yes and no. Jungle/heavy woodland and, even more urban environments, would certainly make them less effective, but I can tell you that even fairly primitive gunships, with medium or heavy MG's, can in daylight on fairly open terrain, wreck a force of low training and moral, that lacks much anti aircraft defence, dug in or not. It is also a case of suppression. If you are an insurgent and in cover and not spotted a gunship being around is probably going to stop you moving, and firing if you are using your brain. If you are not using your brain it might make you run away and that will likely get you killed too... And no I'm not really talking about WWIII scenarios here between major nations(I got bored with most large scale MBT games some time ago because they are always, accurately enough, so bloody that it is difficult to get a win that means much if the forces are balanced). In reality of course forces are not often well balanced, one side or the other will have better training and/or kit, more men and/or intelligence, etc. To me those are the more interesting MBT type games, as I have written about elsewhere on here, ie, using assets and skill to win a tactical victory, without losing half your own force. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Just out if interest bought 6 Apache,30mm, Hellfire, 2X DAGR config
Map fairly open trees woods hills. Moved to take up positions on first turn, Set ranges to 20hexes. After that did nothing did not move or fire in my turn, just hit end turn. Opposing side no AAA assets Platoon tanks Company APCs 2 Companies of trucks as soft targets 2 Companies dismounted soldiers. Results once in range, one vehicle might have survived for 2 hexes all rest killed once in range. Autocannon got a high percentage with around 66% hit chance, hellfire finished with 90%hit if missed. Infantry hit chance around 34-40%. After a few turns probably lost about 25% of their infantry & getting any to advance was getting difficult. As said this was all reaction fire I never targeted a unit or moved after turn 1 I just let the enemy advance. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
We must not forget the other factors dealing with AH & other Helos in the game...1) The era your playing in since Vietnam the modern helicopter is so much more advanced now. I.E.
2) Better armor protection. I n Vietnam helicopter losses were so high & with the HUEY in particular, they locally reinforced the "deck" with steel plates increase the protection of not only the HUEY but the troops they were carrying. This type of protection is standard to include spuall liners etc., armored cockpits and armor protection around vital areas around the engine. The VIPER is a great example of this with armor protection around the engine up to and including against 23mm AA rounds. 3) EW ,besides the major improvements in this area you have to include the much improved avionics to include speed. These factors together make them again, over time, a harder target to shot-down. The APACHE newer models (And some others.) are designed to a limited degree (Within weapons range.) to take on/down a fighter. Their anti-air capability uses the same missile our fighters which is why the 64E carry's two of them as a standard load out normally. 4) FCS, the LONGBOW system by example again has a huge catalogue of targets embedded and continually updated of MBT's, IFV/APC's, Light vehicles and Infantry. It classifies the the type I.E. MBT/T-90S etc. prioritizes the threats in the area and attacks the target based on available onboard weapons availability. http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capab...s/default.aspx http://www.northropgrumman.com/capab...ts/longbow.pdf 5) WEAPONS, also much improved, "shoot and forget" ATGW are the norm now though we can't simulate that in the game. Not only does the modern helo act as a weapons stable platform so are the cannons onboard, so in this I strongly agree that the cannons in general against infantry in particular needs to be improved the evidence on YOU TUBE and others is overwhelming in backing up this discussion point. 6) With all the above it has been my long experience that the AA from all types against helos it has been very successful. My battles with the AI are well within the hundreds with this game alone (Remember, I have freely posted out here over the years my Campaigns normally run 21, 23 or 25 games, sometimes higher based on opponent OOB.) A player issue I think was addressed a couple of years that it was to easy for infantry to shoot down a helo, I believe modifiers were made to make this harder. Bottom-line I've had a lot of burnt out airframes left on the deck. 7) EXPERIENCE, you have to treat them like tanks, by using terrain masking, position & sighting them with good LOS's again this requires knowing the ground. Ease them into combat the experience level gained after a 3-4 games will pay dividends for you later. As has been mentioned already there are so many variables involved. I'm not charging in with them unless it appears the battle is going my way, I use them to cover my flanks and center gaps depending on the numbers of units involved the AI will and has sent tanks into my rear away from the main battle(s) I believe they call that a diversion the goal are my "home" victory hexes, retreating units (Loves to kill off armor crews.) and I've seen behavior (Maybe just coincidence.) to suggest it's looking for my HQ unit to where I've had to pull them off the map. I do play the AI at it's hardest settings. 8) SURVIVORBILITY Something that still needs to addressed for crews and personnel. This was discussed at great length a within the last couple of years I believe in this forum. Well worth your time if not done so. Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Try a test with machinegun only armed helos vs infantry.
Their utility vs vehicles has never been a problem as far as I'm concerned. |
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Firstly vehicle mounted MGs do not as far as I am aware have a blast radius so they fo not perform as well as an infantry weapon. Secondly MG armed helos tend to have fairly poor stats like rangefinder & fire control. In real life idealy what range would a MG armed helo start strafing at? Same thing goes for the Apache videos what range are they engaging at? Virtualy all of them there is no AAA they are hovering or very slow moving. Tried to find a vid of an Apache taking RPG fire from a cragy mountain, took them a while to locate the 2 targets & get them due to manuvering & the good cover as in big rocks. Regarding MGs I dont have an issue with how they work, yes they tend to cause more suppresion than kills but on the whole they kill better than an infantry squad. However once the unit is no longer in good order or if its doing something silly like tank riding they can be effective. Current game I have at least a infantry company approaching along a lightly guarded flank. Moved 2 machine gun units to slow firing at around 17 to 20 hexes. First couple of turns not much effect pinned or broke a few units with little or no losses to them but now they are all grouped together I am picking targets that have adjacent units. Virtualy every shot gets a kill in the effected area and the advance has ground to a halt, remember a hex is 50m & I have stopped an advance over a 500m front & am now picking them off. In the game infantry manned MGs are very good for the above & letting your squads engage in relative safety after the MGs fire because the targets have their heads down. If you want to kill quicker especially in good cover use GLs but ammo is a big issue normaly. Best infantry killer though tends to be a modern autocannon equiped IFV parked up out of RPG range, makes attacking dug in targets a far simpler process due to their high to hit values. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
In my opinion SF machine guns, manned by good troops, should be able to mostly stop leg infantry movement, in good visibility and in open terrain, at about 400 yards at the very least, ie, infantry should go to ground and pretty much not be able to get forward without cover, until the SF MG is taken out. Bear in mind that most assault rifles are total rubbish at much beyond 300 yards, and that they are also weaker at penetrating cover than rounds like the 7.62mm NATO or older .303 British. (The main reason the British reintroduced a 7.62mm rifle for limited issue to infantry platoons a few years back).
I will also stick to what I said originally; all gunship helicopters should be better at killing, and routing, leg infantry than they are now, especially less well trained forces lacking much in the way of air defence. With earlier, medium and heavy MG armed helicopters, lacking advanced sighting systems, this should naturally only apply in fairly open terrain. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I'll leave you with the following two videos. note that on some of attack scenes the enemy isn't even moving. It is safe to say 1) These Apache's are quiet. and 2) The ranges are out there, this is especially apparent in the second/third videos again note the box on the bottom center of of the target screen, look to the upper right corner that's your range marker to target. I would think in yards as we tend to indicate meters when used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwnYTfDdGu0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XryPZvCpcic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaufhZv84Gk Go for a ride in a UK APACHE... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMDy7X94fc The last is of the AC-130 gunship from the first video lower left you'll see the weapons selected area (From a newer version.)showing rounds expended as well. Note the weapons firing discipline. Also remember the AC-130 carries a full armory for replenishment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5lW9K_-VG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOG9GHVV0c How it all works... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOe-TEJlV4E How tough is the A-10? One pilots story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JM82fa5ZY Also that Thread mentioned earlier is in WinSPMBT main forum page. It's on Page 6 top as "Helicopter armor" started by sabresandy. Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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P.S. are you sure its a Brit crew? Don't think our crews wear camo flight suits? |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.c...0_q85_crop.jpg http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-pla...-fly-87132849/ |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
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This is a British Apache. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZaV81BmJ4 |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Well ... that's definitely NOE flying.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Ahh s**t, posted the wrong *&^gg%# one! Thanks for the catch I guess that would make that a Eurocopter TIGER variant. Thanks for the catch Don!
http://www.military-today.com/helico...pter_tiger.htm Back to writing Christmas Cards for the Ireland gang. Thanks for the diversion!! By the way can we "say" **** here, or just write about it!?! Regards, Pat :capt: Guess not couldn't remember, guess I'll just keep writing about. :rolleyes: |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
As for game improvements of the attack helos, I would like to be able to have the game return the hit percentage of the weapon selected instead of the weapon in slot #1. With the attack helos, inactivating all weapons save the missiles, the game returns the hit chance of weapon slot #1, normally the cannon.
I am not sure how it could be done, however, selecting weapons using the "W" key maybe a start. When a weapon in selected using that key, the game will return the selected weapon's hit percentage to target. This saves the player from having to calculate using pencil and paper the hit percentage taken as a ratio of weapons max range and range to target. ===== |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2
OK this is a question for everybody but "shahadi".........how may of you actually......... "
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?? Those calcs are and will remain a general estimation of overall hit chance to give the player a rough idea if they are wasting their shots or if there is some chance of a hit and you could get a report back of 100% but that is only based on the targeting unit---it does not take into account what the target might do based on it's experience, morale, damage etc etc....that isn't taken into account until the shot is fired. IDK about Andy but I rarely....and I MEAN rarely...pay any attention to that message at all Don |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
The to-hit number?
If I am cycling round a set of potential targets and one is way ahead of the others then I know to take that one. But then again, if the lower number is say a T-55 and the higher is an APC, the T-55 might take precedence. But I dont sit there for hours obsessing if I should go for the shot at 12% or the one at 17%... its neither here nor there. If the shot needs to be taken, then its taken. Simples. The to-hit chance reported by the T key sequence is only a basic "gunner's guestimate" as it does not have any of the random numbers generated, and its for the slot 1 (primary) weapon. The hit %age displayed on actually firing has had the random effects applied, which can be for the better or worse. If the random numbers were run then users would complain that when they switch away and back, the number shown for target X yo-yos, confusing the end user and so then "wah boo-hoo I found a :bug:"!.. |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Use occasionaly as a rough guide especialy if changed from WWll to modern era but on the whole you just develop a feel for the unit based on its stats.
Attack helos if they have moved more than a couple of hexes I would need a good reason to use the missile rather than wait till next turn for the shot. |
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I like using it mostly with less experienced tank/or any other anti tank component. Reason for this is simple, I want to build up those units experience level as fast as possible, especially for a previously badly damaged unit/or a replacement to one of my core units. The driver here for me is the length of my campaigns as discussed already. I will use my more experienced core units to deal the bigger threat T-80's lurking amongst the T-55's. It's simply an aid that I'm not totally bound by as each situation is different, but still probably use around ~75% of the time for the above situation. I find if my core units are intact it's not as big a deal but, either way, I find little to no difference in time savings maybe because like I play Chess, I'm looking 2-4 moves ahead. And I like "overlapping" my units during the initial deployment phase for the above stated purpose and use as well.
I guess that makes me a "technical" player going back to my many years of die cut board playing wargames from Avalon Hill and SPI mostly I guess with many over nighters included. Couple of my favorites from SPI... https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...tar-white-star https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8319/sixth-fleet Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
I used to have 'Air Assault on Crete' when I was at school, by Avalon Hill (published late 1970's?)If I remember rightly it had a invasion of Malta game too. If only I knew then what I know now...
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Ahhhh yes ... I cut my teeth on Tactics II (mid 1960s).
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
There were lots of great games, problem was space especially if playing friends over a few weeks.
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Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
Yeah, when I was in the service several of us were playing Dunnigan's "War in the East". We got enough room by "paneling" one wall with sheet steel and using magnetic "Counter Clips".
Wound up being rather amusing. Traditionally in the USMC Friday morning is the weekly quarters inspection and more often then not rather then a critique of our cleaning we got one on the current state of the game and suggestions :) |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
In videorecords we can see that ATGM launch makes far less smoke and flash than tank gun shot. So to spot ATGM vehicle on fire should be harder than tank. But in SP MBT this mechanics is opposite.
Could a separate setting for ATGM fire spotting be developed? |
Re: Ideas how to improve WinSP MBT/WW2 !
At one point, US doctrine was to immediately fire at the ATGM site because the missile firing was detectable and flew slow enough to be disrupted by making the operator duck. Probably 30 years ago now, but the TOW battery would set off a Claymore mine on either or both sides of the firing position simultaneously with the missile launch to mask the real location. Just bringing it up because someone out there thought the launch was easily detectable.
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