Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Tut tut, sept! This has nothing to do with the game settings - this is just what it looks like when vets take off the kid gloves and play for the win. Our whole team worked on our expansion strategies in order to completely dominate the early game. And so, we have done it. Now get ready to see the next phase of our strategy...

Oh, and welcome back - TO YOUR DOOM! ;)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Well, if I had been able to hit you when I found you, you would never have been able to combine your army at your cap. So I guess we're both lucky in a way, although you might want to check for that non-existent fort of mine again.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Niefelheim comes knocking at your door. You might not want to answer it.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I thought you guys didn't like micromanagement. Better leave the province aquistion to us or relinquish some of what you do have to the noob team.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Bring Mysterio to the front ASAP and place him in the front rank of your attacking army. :smirk:

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Hahaha, well said. However, we have already worked out a solution for this: Instead of executing the disgraced generals of the noob team, as would be normal, we are instead going to employ them as regional governors. With Slave Collars, of course!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

In all seriousness, it probably has a lot to do with both the game settings and our specific expansion strats, and I'd be happy to discuss it after the game in detail, win or lose.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Sorry about your prophet, Abysia. I meant to let him go, but my troops got carried away.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Oh god that sounds horrific. I could go again into why that's a bad idea, but I'll take a different tac:

Let's up the ante, winning team decides settings for the next one (tradition has already been somewhat established). You are hereby challenged, there is only one honorable response. ;)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

What's so horrific?

I'm going to wait to see how this one plays out before we delve into specifics. I believe the playing field has been leveled this time around and possibly tipped slightly into the favor of the vets, however this may prove incorrect. Suggestions though, as always, are welcome. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

30+ just ain't gonna be possible. you'll never all of your team on the forums and working as a team
unless you break that down to 3-5 different teams maybe

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

A coward's answer! Do not shame your team further by refusing.

Speaking of cowardly tricks, I have another bone to pick with you. Nowhere in the settings was it mentioned rare events, this is effectively a 240 (!) point disadvantage for a nation such as mine with luck 3.

Even worse though, is what it means about last game. Assuming that it was in effect then too, I'd cite it as one of the top reasons for the vets getting taken out. My entire build there was built around the income from luck, at the time I thought I had somehow just gotten phenomenally unlucky. So instead of events I had to rely on handouts from the rest of the team since my other scales were so bad, draining everyone. Additionally as I recall Ermor and Mictlan took luck as well, this proved especially deadly to Mictlan. Just imagine what one 1000-2000 gold event would have changed in the first few turns, a huge hydra army from the start.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

You can find that out if you load the old game and check in the escape menu.

As for a 30+ game, I can't imagine organizing a vet team bigger than 5 the way we do things right now. As it stands, we're lucky there's a time in the day when we're typically all online so we can get proper planning done. I can't imagine how you noobs organize, or what would happen with teams of 10 and 20.

But hey, it might work, I'll just leave it to other vets to actually play it.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

ah yes, that's not at all kosher. any settings other than standard (and almost no games are ever played w/ rare events) need to be explicitly stated. oh well - I guess the vets are playing w/ a disadvantage :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Rare events, heh. That just increases the irony of me getting plague in my capital yet more :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Oh well, I have luck 3, too.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

well it's annoying, but it affects both sides more or less equally

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

well thats annoying, because I also hope for the bonuses from luck. if I new it was rare then I probably would of made that -3 for the extra points

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

If this is true (about the rare events), it should have been listed.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

To clarify for everyone, that figure "30+" includes a bunch of alternates who typically don't participate in the forums until they are needed and thus are not counted as active team members. I'd like to have around 9 alternates altogether for the next game. Let's not freak out people. I figure around 24 active players with a few carefully chosen mod nations. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Excuses, excuses. Yeah, that was why your team lost. Come now.

A minor oversight. It slipped my mind, didn't want to bore everyone with every little detail. I usually choose it in SP games as it cuts down on some of the annoyances and extra turn messages. But as stated it helps and hinders both teams. I assure you twas not intentional. I also didn't mention HOF entries. I'll remember to state it next time though. Works out good for me though, as I usually take some misfortune. Lucikly Ermor's augurs help to counteract the misfortune scales. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Event setting is hardly a minor thing since it affects order/turmoil balance heavily. But come to think of it, it at least used to be a common meme that turning down events would make the game more "strategic". Which is faulty logic.

In a different vein, what's up with Sauromatia? They staled once already. Get your team together, noobs!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Just to be clear, the difference between changing the HoF and changing events from common to rare is orders of magnitude. In fact, in terms of being able to screw up a particular pretender build it is probably more important than all the other settings combined. I do not overreact when I talk about it utterly ruining my nation last game. If I had been playing solo and not been able to drain cash from my teammates, it would have been more obvious just how crippling it was.

Anyway, no hard feelings about it, it would be a nice gesture if you'd at least let the vets handle the settings next game if we win though.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I always wondered when we played that game, why some of the vets had such dismal income.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

that's a terrible answer severus, and really you should not be organizing games w/ an attitude like that. If I were involved in a normal game, and the game creator had done that, I would be quitting. luckily, in this team game, it is partially balanced out. It is not at all a minor oversight; it is a major violation of trust.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I have a theme for this turn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvoeeq-BH4w

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I'm pretty damn outraged. I keep typing posts and then deleting them for being inflammatory.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

"this video is not available in your country"

...damn...

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I agree it's not fair at all.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

As someone who's actually playing in the game and not commenting from the wings, the events thing is bad, yes. But its neither unforgivable nor the end of the world - it's just an oversight. Sept is new to hosting games and made a mistake. This should not come as a huge surprise to anyone? After all, its not like he intentionally did it and only kept that knowledge for the noob team so they could all take Misf-3 or something.

*shrug* Game on.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Aye, lets move on. Still many scalps to collect, haven't even begun yet.

...but I still want to know what that video clip is about...

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

it's a clip of AC/DC's "Thunderstruck"

i'm pretty sure you can find some version of it available in "your country" :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Well, given the today's decision by our friends the swedish courts, probably pretty much nothing will be found from the interweb soon...

Anyway, after reviewing the army graphs, I must say the description probably fits. High voltage must be bad for poor monkees.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I should not be organizing games? What is wrong with my attitude? It is best to let those remarks slide I think.

Ironhawk is correct, it was not intentional. It was not something I revealed only to my team or anything. Our noob archive is open to the public for all to see, if you doubt me. So what if it meant less points for some pretenders and less of those ridiculous "A hurricane struck the coast..." messages.

Let's have more concentration on basic strategic generalship rather than on random events and game exploits. Something the vets seem to know all to well. It will be listed for the next game. Now, lets have no more talk of this nonsense.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Yes, I'm aware of the difference.

But enough of this whining and complaining. Ye gods, are you vets or what? Accept your lot and make the most of it.

I've given you first nation choice.
I've given you control of the seas and the only water nation.
I've given you veto power over membership in both teams.
I've given you a 10 turn NAP to expand unmolested.
I've given you a longer playing game with easy research which gives you an advantage based on your overall experience and knowledge of the magic system in the mid and late game.

With regard to letting the vets decide the settings, as I said let us see how the game plays out. Feel free to make suggestions, any sticky disagreements can be worked out democratically via a vote if it comes down to it. In the unlikely event the vets lose, I may give extra weight to your suggestions.

Understand, I have a vision for this series of games. I created the games to make that vision a reality and to suit those who share similiar ideas and playing habits, so there are certain things I will not compromise on.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

First off, most these 'privileges' were unasked for and many in fact unwanted. Personally I was hoping newb water nations were allowed so I could duke it out with them underwater. And vets expressed disapproval or disinterest in the NAP (it was also pitched as an idea to help the newbs at the time).

In any case, you seem to be under the mistaken impression I was lobbying for more vet control of the settings in order for more advantage for that team. On the contrary, I simply think vets are best able to determine balanced settings (I think we would have made this game tougher on ourselves if given the choice). You may interpret the frequent issues brought up as 'whining', but it's simply an expression of frustration that the game could be/have been that much better.

If you want specifics about the settings I think need tweaking:

*The map size/player number: Bigger is not better. Bigger games move slower, take more turns, more micromanagement, and in most cases don't even offer bigger battles or more magic used. In fact the biggest battles tend to be on the most tightly packed maps- big maps just means tons of raiding micromanagement. The bottom line for the purposes of the stated goal of teaching newbs- less turns played/games played means the newbs learn slower.

*Rare events. This is a much lesser issue, but I still strongly believe it is a misstep. By nearly eliminating events, you entirely gut the strategy from 2 out 6 scales. Anyone not taking order 3/misfortune 3 would be crazy. And it hardly cuts down on the amount of chance involved anyway, luck with independents and magic sites is in general of far greater importance than fluctuations in events.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Oh hey Lanka, nice attack. I should probably remind you that Neifel Jarls do not run, ever,(at least mine don't), and they are pretty hard to kill. You might want to keep that in mind in the future as you try to put your army back together.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Let's just leave the settings discussion until this one's over. I don't see the point rehashing it anymore when we haven't even finished this game.

And yeah, for those of you who can't see the video clip it's just the music video to AC/DC's Thunderstruck.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

QM, the concept is by its very nature umbalanced. Whenever you've got noobs facing vets, that will be the case. In a 1:1 game, the vets must be handicapped in order to give the noobs a fair shot. Ideally, it should be green noobs vs hall of famers(my vision).

With 1 noob and 1 vet in the water, you've basically got a 1:1 matchup, who do you suppose would have the upper hand under the waves? I would think the noob water nation would be wiped out rather quickly, before getting a chance to learn how to play.

With a 2:1 ratio, well things start to even out a bit especially if the vets can survive into the midgame and/or netrualize the noobs early numerical superiority(at least that seemed to be the consensus back then). However, many have said that 2:1 is too much and took the last game as proof, so I attempted to correct for it with some advantages for the vets in this game and a greater prov/player ratio and larger map/longer game which is what you guys suggested was one of your mistakes (I refer you to Ironhawk, et. al closing comments from game 1, prov/player ratio was too small, so forth, and so on..).

I do intend to make it harder for the vets next game, depending upon what happens here. One way to do that is to go to 3:1. Now tell me, do you really want to give up any advantages you might have? I'd rather think you'd want more (a no first attack rule for the noobs might be good). :)

I don't intend to increase the prov/player ratio, don't worry. Yes, vets may be more qualified to judge balance. NAP or no NAP, it is arguable whether it had any effect. I put it in to keep Atlantis from attacking early.

Rare events, standard events, makes no difference to me, whatever everyone wants, I don't have the time to put into this game that others seem to have. I've got other priorities. I like the heroes and the occasional gold, that comes with the events, that's about all.

I'm sure we will find a way to compromise between my "vision" and the balance the vets seek.

Now Vets, let me hear your suggestions for a perfectly balanced game. If you were admining tell me the exact settings you would choose and why: prov/player ratio, noob/vet ratio, and every other setting.

It will save time next game, by getting this stuff out of the way now, also will keep the thread alive.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Okay, I must bite this. The premise of this game was something like that the noobs learn from experience of playing against the vets. The most useful thing I am going to teach anyone during this game is this:

Even if we're all playing a strategy game this is a social forum. What you say and how you behave yourself is remembered far longer than whether you manage to beat many opponents.

Acting smug, condescending and throwing stuff like that does nobody any good. Being a game admin requires a thick skin, because people ***** about stuff that can't be affected. And usually correct answer is "Mea culpa, won't happen next time" instead of trying to prove one is correct to the last. Usually one just ends up contradicting himself and all the battles of the egos that result serve no-one.

So, lets keep on playing. I really think that the game setting conversation and the reasons why we are at this situation in-game are things that are better discussed when everyone can openly state what they have done and why, instead of the current war-time fog of war.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Your quite correct, though no one is being smug. What I said is quite true. I enjoy the game, but I don't take it that seriously and barely have time for it. I'm a noob and never claimed to be anything else, I've said it was unintentional if those outside of the game feel otherwise, that is on them. I've said the settings can be discussed later, but I'm not opposed to discussing them now, inevitably we wind up having a long debate about them anyway, especially between me and QM. If the vets have the elusive recipe for a balanced game I'd like to hear it. I do want the game to be larger (in terms of players) as befitting a final showdown.

Noob team:

Ossa (Sauromatia) and Alansmithee(Formoria), please check into the noob forum and coordinate/participate. Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I'm fairly sure 3:1 would be too much unless the other settings were truly insane. Personally, if I were to pick settings it would look a lot like the first one, except easy research and normal events.

As has been said though, I guess talk of settings can wait until the game is over. I don't think the current settings are catastrophic or anything, it's just the talk of an even more gigantic game in the OP scared me. ;)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I think we can come to an agreement now and thus save time when the next game begins.

I will insist on two things, that fit my vision and the backstory. Number of players and noob/vet ratio.

24 players, 18 green noobs vs 6 HOF/experienced vets. I'd like 6 noob alternates and 3 vet alternates. I don't think organization will be a prob for the noob team, but I'll probably split the team into two groups based on geography(eastern and western noobs). It will only require a single additional thread on our forum.

You see, Mysterio's dastardly actions have stirred up outrage throughout the countryside. Noobs from every corner of the globe are responding to avenge this outrage.

All other settings including prov/player ratio, map, everything else will be left up to the vets. How does that sound? The vets can tweak everything else to compensate and ensure balance.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

There is only one problem with that... with the odds staked so heavily vs. the vets I think we would be forced to choose a very large map to get it at all balanced. I defiantly want a small prov/player ratio, but the smaller it gets the tougher it gets on outnumbered team. I mean, I guess I'd still rather play a small game where the vets get crushed than a huge one that is just annoying to play, but it would kind of just be a repeat of the first game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

And we don't want a repeat of the first game, do we? So seems like a great compromise to me. I get what I want, you get what you want. Everyone's happy. If you want first choice or any other balancer that's fine with me. :up:

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

Anyone want to volunteer to post a regular summary of the action and/or stats on the thread to keep our alternates and observers up-to-date? Lingchih?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I'd like the summary to come from the noob side. You can take turns, shouldn't be more than few summaries each. ;)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I don't think it's what everyone wants- presumably no one wants a game that ends before it even really begins, and I certainly don't want a big map game. With your edict those seem to be the options.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I really though I'd have done alot better in that fight. But between that single battle and a very annoying Caelum. It could be awhile if at all.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets II: Mysterio's Revenge, EA, CBM, Game running.
 

I usually post some crap after every turn anyway Sept. So yeah, I can do that.

I think your vision for the third game is too big. I don't think you'll be able to find the players for it. The number of vets that actually still play is dropping slowly. That's why you have us instead of a full group of hall of famers. You might be able to find 18 noobs for it.

I say go with a smaller game simply for the fact of finding enough players.