Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway.
 

Yeah, I think dispense with the NAP.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Yeah, sorry about those starts I didn't check them for prov connections. 4 land neighbors is enough, 3 is too few, land<->water connections don't generate resources.

Let me check our forums and I think we have a list ready to go.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I'd very much like to have our exact capitals secret? Would it be possible for us to just pick our capitals wherever we want in that center band of 3 provinces? I realize this will take an extra day-at-least, but it prevents some early nastiness that can be done if you know someone's capital.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I have no problem with Dr Praetorious's suggestion. But can't we just get a neutral to set the capitals? And therefore move them a little if this is important?

There were plenty of people who were interested in the game but for whatever reason did not decide to play. Maybe someone who played in a previous game could be asked to do this?

Or, while agreeing to have no actual NAP, perhaps we could have a prohibition on anyone moving forces (Pretenders, armies etc.) or casting spells on to the capital of an enemy nation for say the first 5 turns? Or would this crap the Vets style too much :p

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

While I respect Dr. Praetorious suggestions, I'm inclined toward some sort of NAP as Hoplo mentioned to prevent any sort of early nastiness. We've slaved over setting up these start locations for fairness and directness, I frankly don't want anyone tampering with em, moving anything around, or any such thing.

Ideally we noobs would like a no vet first attack NAP, prohibiting them from any sort of first attack. That would calm jittery noob nerves. Let us expand with molestation, and when we are ready strike the first blow. But Somehow I don't think the Vets would care for this. :)

Failing that, Hoplo's idea of a hand's off capitals for x number of turns is fine with me. Frankly, though I don't think we noobs will be risking too much. But a hand's off captitals should sooth any anxious nerves!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I think we need to address this issue... to be honest, when I saw Cleveland's initial starting suggestion with several opposing capitals I immediatly began testing first/second turn SC flying pretenders against capitols of nations the vets would most likely choose. Vicious, yes... but I assumed the vets would use the same strategy.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I'm going to go on record as stating I think the rest of the settings should be kept as normal as possible to keep this like a regular mp game. It is better to have learned and lost than never to have learned at all. Or something like that.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Intelligent debate, I thank everyone for it.

Now my friends it is time for nation assignment, the moment has come.

Here are the ranked team lists in the interests of full disclosure (minus Ashdod and Shinuyama):

Noobs
1) Pythium
2) Abyssia
3) Vanheim
4) Jotunheim
5) Bandar Log
6) Pangaea
7) Ermor
8) Ulm
9) Arcoscephale
10) Marignon
11) Mictlan
12) Eriu
13) Agartha
14) C'tis
15) Caelum
16) Machaka
17) Man

Vets
1. Vanheim
2. Ermor
3. Pythium
4. Eriu
5. Mictlan
6. Jotunheim
7. Marignon
8. Pan
9. Abysia
10. Caelum

Here are the results:

Noobs: Pythium, Abyssia, Jottunheim, Bandar Log, Pangaea, Ulm, Arcoscephale, Agartha, C'tis, Caelum, Machaka, (+ Shinuyama)

Vets: Vanheim, Ermor, Eriu, Mictlan, Marignon, (+ Ashod)

Either team may swap nations with the opposing team or request one of the unused nations (Tien'Chi or Man). First come first serve on those two. But lets keep the squabbling if any down to a minimum.

Next two things I need done.

1. I need each team to decide which player is playing which nation (I need this info to update the opening post).

2. Next I need each team to decide which of their nations goes in their alloted starting positions (I'll post the starts, if demon doesnt, tonight).

We are then ready to begin pretender uploads. I will create the game on Llama very soon.

Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

What? Baalz didn't take T'ien Ch'i? I thought that was a shoo in after he wrote the guide. The other vets vote him down?

I have to say I'm surprised the vets took both van and eriu. I knew one was coming, but both? Slight redundancy there. But great for raiding I admit.

My picks for what you guys would want to pick for this game: pythium, either one of caelum/van/eriu, abysia, tien chi (baalz), pangaea (figured lingchih would want to return to them for the last game), and ermor or jotunheim.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

given the way the list system works if you want to get one and only one nation out of a sublist of two nations well.... you are **** out of luck...

we were 80% sure you would pick vanheim #1 and were treating that pick as almost a dead pick we had no chance at

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Yeah guess the nation selection was all about the Department of Redundancy Department striking again.

Good guesses Rdonj, but your list is quite low on astral for the off-chance that noobs put Pyth first. And I'd be so bold as to assume denying us them was major reason for them being highest?

And absolute NO for any kind of antisymmetric NAP. And would rather not have any artificial restrictions either. But if you're so scared about 3rd turn capital sieges, the I'd guess NAP for first 5 turns would enable people to expand enough it wouldn't be that big a thing. Last game showed how bad it was with a longer sleeping period.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Yeah, that was one of the biggest reasons for having pythium so high.

With ashdod you do at least have one nation with high astral. But I had this feeling that you should really have bandar log, for the high astral, ease of clamming and powerful astral summons. But again, with ashdod on the team, how many astral summon nations do you need. I guess that goes double with marignon on the vet team.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Well what about no NAP but no attacks on Capitals for the first 5 or 6 turns (or however long you think is necessary). That stops any early capital raid as we all know where they are, but allows fighting to start as soon as we find each other?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Yeah well, BL was mentioned once or twice, but at least I didn't stress that nation. Guess noobs have got the real astral heavy-hitters then, we'll see how painful it gets. But, with Ashdod, Ermor and Marignon on the vet team, I'd say astral is well taken care of.

And I really hope this game won't last long enough for clams to pay off. :p

Edit: no attack on caps for 5 turns is fine by me, dunno about others in my team. Not talking for everyone.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I think no attacks on caps for X turns is fine. I'm against asymetrical NAPs, they're kind of silly.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I think no capture of Capital castle all game sounds good, or atleast against my capital.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Also I was kinda hoping that the vets had Caelum, that way I would of pestered the noob team to give me Bandar Log so I could have a rematch of last game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

I am sure everyone will be ok with a 5 turn, no hostile actions against capitols NAP, if that will soothe the fears of any who are worried about that sort of thing. Caps can be pretty easily located/guessed at anyway, as long as you know the general area of the enemy. It won't necessarily nix the need for scouts early on either, as they will still be needed to monitor territory, discover new forts, armies, etc.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Here are the start locations corresponding to those shown in the map image.

From top to bottom and left to right:

Nob-Vet
336-361
337-304
296-230
299-157
225-82
226-25
153
153
84
85
36
37

This post will be available via link from the opening post.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Looking at the terrain modifiers in more detail in the chosen map, I don't really have any issues with the choices made, aside from possibly 296 and 299 being swamp, which can easily be fixed if it turns out to be a detriment to any of the noob nations. Other than that, I'm not going to fool with connections or any other terrain masks, as I want to retain the look and feel of Cleveland's excellent map as much as possible.

When the players/nations have been assigned, team captains please post them. Thanks.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Also, when the nations have been placed in starting locations, team Captains (or at least the vet team Captain), please PM them to the admin(s).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Province type of the capital doesn't matter, other than being the backdrop of battles fought there.

I think we're just waiting to hear from Baalz, whether he's okay with stuff...

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

It also matters for summon animals!!!! There are a couple of other effects (send wolves) that notice forests, etc.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Well then I probably won't need to make any adjustments on those two.

Ling, tell us, with Mysterio having been assasinated, will there be a son of Mysterio or something else in this game? Or is the line ended for good?:p

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

And as summon animals is going to be the cornerstone of my strategy what am I likely to get in Swamps? :p

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

if you are truly serious you can always trade start locations with a fellow noob player can't you?


also... how does one edit a map to give their nation a specific start location? i want to do some testing with proper locations...

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Team vet switches Mictlan with T'ien Ch'i.

Lineup coming up momentarily.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Here are the heroes or the villains, depending on the team you root for:

Ashdod - namad
Eriu - Baalz
Ermor - Lingchih
Marignon - TheDemon
T'ien Ch'i - DrP
Vanheim - atul

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Open the .map file with wordpad or similar program and at the bottom of the text file add the text below for each nation you want to specify starting locations for:

#specstart [nationnmber] [provnumber]

Example:

#specstart 1 241
(specifies that EA Ermor is to start in province number 241)

Note: nation numbers for each era can be found in the mapedit.pdf in the doc directory.

I believe #specstart will overide any terrain masks such as no-start that some maps use to indicate starting/no starting provinces, but if so you can either go in the editor and uncheck no-start or find the province in the terrain list and remove the "512" terrain mask. Be aware the map editor will erase any specstarts you add to a file, so if you make any changes via the editor, be sure to go back and add them.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Selection Underway
 

Got it. Available unused nations are now Mictlan and Man.

Vets only need now to PM which of their nations they wish to start in the pre-assigned vet locations.

I expect the noob nation assignment and placement will take a bit longer due to the number of team members but it should be coming soon.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Wait, the noobs can have Mictlan now b/c I took T'ien Ch'i? Mictlan is not such a valuable nation for us (we have plenty of people to whom we can funnel money) but will be quite useful and easy to play for noobs.

/me writhes.

Er... I guess I still want T'ien Ch'i.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

The noob list of nation assignments is as follows.


Shinuyama - Unoptimized
Abysia - Viccio
Bandar Log - Lavaere
Pangaea - Septimius
Ulm - Joelz
Pythium - Twobits
C'tis - Raiel
Agartha - Pelthin
Caelum - Skinu
Machaka - Lumen
Arcoscephale - Melnorjr
Jotunheim - Hoplosternum

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Well, looks like it's about time to create the game. Finally. Good luck to all, ye vets and noobs.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Yep, once the vet placements are in, I can upload a working map. I'll create the game tonight and pretender uploads can be started at that time as well.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Mysterioso, the bastard son of Mysterio, decided to forget about the family vendetta, and left the land of the giants. He came to Ermor, where the people saw his greatness and proclaimed him to be their God.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Would this Mysterioso be five foot nothing, and wear a mask?

But more importantly. I've been told I can't go feeding my monkeys, Kentucky Fried Caelum. Would someone on the vet offer ideas for a new balance diet. Perhaps something not as tough and stringy this time.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

uhm no way man! an ancient tomb contained mysterio's remains and through a ritual conducted in the nation of ermor he has risen once again! to wreck havoc and do all the stuff he would feel like doing!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Yeah, actually that sounds better, Namad. We'll go with that.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Darling,

Don't you know everything tastes like chicken? With the possible exception of Ermor, later.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

Orcs taste like chicken.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

I need a map with fixed positions, so I can test it. Not sure why theDemon has not submitted the nation choices. We finalized them today.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Nation Assignment/Placement
 

I have nation assignments and placements for both teams.

Thank the gods, we now enter the final phase of organization:

Pretender design/upload.

Ling, I believe one of your cohorts was working on a test map for you guys.

Some of you have been extremely quiet, where's the trash talking and all that good stuff?

Can I assume everyone is OK with/wants a hands off capitols for 5 turns NAP? Dr. P?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

NAPs are for sissies, but if that's what everyone wants I won't object except to point out how weak and stupid our opponents are.

If they wish to prolong their agony for five months with some mewling NAP, that's fine by me.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

It's not a NAP :) It's just a no attacks on capitals before Turn 6 rule. If you Vets agree. You can fight anywhere else before then....

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

Now that's the spirit! :D I can't think of any good riposte right now though - any good comebacks, fellow Noobs?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

There's a game at llamaserver.

Does that mean we can start uploading pretenders there?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

Maybe we can fight amongst ourselves for awhile Dr P, just to pass the time until our opponents can field an army.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

Not really interested in playing a huge MP game yet, but I did want to comment on how you assign nations.

The most fair way to do it would be to have each player submit a ranked list from 1:n where n is the number of nations available. You then minimize the sum of squared rankings for nations awarded across all players. This is actually a remarkably simple thing to do - one way to accomplish this is if you think of it as a player : nation matrix where the elements are the jth players rank of nation k, you're looking for an ordering of the columns (nations) to minimize the sum of the diagonal (row k gets assigned column k). There are n! possible orderings, so you don't want to actually brute force it for 24 players, but there are clever things you can do. (For example, an heuristic search would get you an approximate best answer, a principle coordinate analysis would tell you who's rankings are similar to each other and let you break the problem into sub-problems in most cases, and I'm sure someone better at math than I am can figure out something truly clever to do to arrive at the actual solution).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

...

As my professor in System Analysis and Operations Research used to say: "Usually the best solution to a problem is the one that gets done in time."

Interesting concept, but I feel we spent enough time with this as it is already. :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Pretender Design/Upload
 

the flaw in a solved system is that players can change their lists in order to exploit the formula and increase their chances of getting that one nation they really really want... if you were to use a solved system the lists would have to be kept totally confidential... additionally with only two players (two teams) in the game there is no reason at all for something like this... the forming of the list itself became a game in which players attempted to take into account what they thought the other player's list would be....

the system we used ended up being almost entirely optimal we left the team that picked first the vets get pick1 and4 but gave the other team pick2and3 and then alternated throughout