Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Kailasa and Machaka are another two off the top of the head that suffer greatly under no gem gen.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

tell me about it

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

EA and MA C'tis are my favorite nations beside Mictlan and I think I am pretty good with them, however that would be like cutting off your own leg. Compare it with EA Mictlan without the blood slaves, what's the point?
If you want a competitive game with ALL nations even LA Ermor and such and see all the nations at their best, you can't really cripple some nations like this as you'll be creating major unbalance by doing so.
That's just how I feel.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I must say that I am hating gem generators more and more in games, so I welcome any new games that start with bans on them. But....
This is a bloody good point. You can't really ask players to bring their favourite nations to the table for an ultimate showdown if you are going to handicap a load of them before it even starts.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

There is no way to NOT affect some nations by the choices that are made. Everything affects someone. Thats one of the pros and cons of Dominions. There is no absolute "best" in anything because that best is likely to be raised or lowered by game settings, nation choices, mods, map type and size, etc.

Eventually the person running the game will just have to select the game settings and take the knocks on who was affected by it.


Gandalf Parker
--
To some people, unlimited choices are no choices.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Basically the pros and cons for gem gens are:

Pros: Some nations shine with them or are not playable w/o them.
any more?

Cons: MM. They are one of the reasons all end games tend to look the same. They allow hoarders to "hide" huge piles of income.
more?

I'm not a fanatic of either choice. I wanted them out b/c I thought that's the latest fashion and I wanted my next game to be in moda. We can take that down if player don't like this choice.

And yes I do want players to feel free to take LA Ermor or Pythium or Fomoria etc.

I think AsiaTwist (my 2nd game ) is approaching show down. It can take a month or two to complete and then I'll start the new game. I'd have loved to start it now but I vowed not to do 3 games in a row anymore. So I settle for talking about the 3rd one :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

As arcoscephale has staled the last several turns in a row and I have been unable to get in contact with its player, I am opening a sub request. Hopefully one can be found before the next turn hosting.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

In my humble opinion the best ally of gem generating strategy is a NAP. When you feel safe you can invest extra gems for the better future. In RAND game you can put priority #1 to producing gem generators, but just don't cry when you find out clams do not help you fight off enemy invasion.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

@rdonj, Thank you for your effort!

@WingedDog, That's a good point.

I think I'll just put this to vote and let majority decide. It's either that or let YARG winner decide (assuming he joins) ;)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Cons: Creates an inflationary feedback loop with wishing, especially with forge discounts, which in turn makes Forge of the Ancients a game-breaking global instead of just a very good one.

Decouples gem income from provinces, making raiding and even wholesale province capture hold little meaning.

Can be transferred to an allied nation upon the forger being killed off, unbalancing the game considerably, especially in the late game.

Is a mandatory strategy. Any winning strategy in a game with standard settings will be forced to use the gem items to be competitive, and when everyone has to do it why not just take them out so no one has to?

Makes site searching later in the game largely irrelevant. Who cares if you find a new site when you're cranking out 10 new gem items a turn? The only sites that matter are discount sites or indy mages. Playing without gens makes every site discovery an important event.

I'm going to go ahead and flat-out disagree with WingedDog's investment comment. The payback on a blood stone is quite short and it serves as a booster (7 turns for the E gems, and once you have about 10 of them in play your E income isn't going to be very constrained) and clams are also quite short, with the additional complication that W gems pretty much totally suck, so you're essentially investing the spare change you have under your couch and getting back pure gold.


The pros for them remaining in are also largely overstated. It isn't that hard to break into clamming, so claiming they help balance is reaching a bit. (Worst case for normal settings: 80W is less than 8 clams, which will empower an indy shaman to W2, add a water bracelet and you have a clammer that can summon naiads for any additional needs. Most of the "natural" clamming nations need to get to cons6 for water bracelets anyhow, so there isn't a significant time savings for many of them.) Blood stones in particular also tend to help some of the stronger nations, since national blood access is already a huge plus for a nation. Hinnom doesn't exactly need tons of help.

The fixes that should happen IMO are giving boosts to some of the nations and/or the W path in general to compensate for the slight bit of damage done to them by the removal of the gens, which would actually make them fun to play with, as opposed to boosting them with a mechanic that drags the whole game down by its very presence.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

You have explained the cons and pros eloquently and put very convincing arguments against generators.
As for nations that rely on clamming I think if your nation's game strategy is clamming then something is clearly broken with your nation.
IMO generators should cost less but create gems that can't be transfered from the mage to lab (like a cursed item). This way they could only be used as IW intended them - for battle magiks.

I think tartarains are less of an issue than generators.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Yet, there are broken nations which are hopeless without clams.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I have to say that this is one of the best game formats for Dominions that I have ever played. I think it is great fun. I would like to be included in any future RAND games that start up, so if anyone thinks to start one, please send me a pm. I would love to play in some more games like this one.

SR

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I'm glad you are enjoying it :)

I esp. like the shorter turns and the removal of diplomacy. Suddenly it's all so quite and your fate depends totally on you, well at least it feels that way when you don't have to take into account a tangled mess of NAPs, agreements, alliances (ever shifting) etc.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I must say, I'm enjoying this game very much, everyone's fighting it out to the end, Atlantis, Arco, Agartha...
I'd like to thank everyone for sticking it out, not turning AI and refusing to give up, it's really a change compared to other games.

And I know it's not in my place to say this, but please don't turn AI folks, and if you have to at least PM the admin first so maybe a sub could be found!

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

So who was Agartha?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

He still controls a fort. I'll wait until he's gone for good before announcing.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Agartha went ai

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Oops, somehow I missed this. Sorry. Agartha was played by ossa, and replaced with jr77 when it was discovered that he offered another player an NAP.

Also, the hosting interval has been changed to 72 hours as per the opening post.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

That's grateble, amazingble and wonderfuble. :clap:

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Ok, Arco are out as of this turn. So time to name the original Arco player who staled a ridiculous 25% of their turns.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Yes, who was arco?

Sigh... people sometimes do extremely stupid things in rand games by not paying atension...

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Arco was played by Strictlyrockers, with a brief stint by stretch at the end there.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Could you please update the first page.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Well, I can't but wraithlord can.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Updated :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

My poor nation of Caelum is now defeated. thanks for having me!

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Thank you Frozen Lama for joining the game. I hope you found it enjoyable.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Can I please ask who the valiant leader of Jomon was? (defeated this turn, which is turn 41)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I was Jomon. Thanks all for the game. :)
:clap:

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Okay everyone, due to llamaserver issues the game has had a lot of time added onto it. Well, unfortunately patala also now needs a permanent sub. So I'm going to have to add another long delay onto the turn while I search for one. Hopefully this won't take too long.

Since patala's player will no longer be with us, I suppose it is my duty to inform you who was playing them. Patala was being played by executor. He had to dump a lot of games due to not having time a while ago, but was hoping this wouldn't be one of them... but unfortunately it turns out that wasn't the case.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I'd just like to take a moment to say how much fun this game has been so far. Also, WOO, for my first solo MP game, I never expected to last this long!

It's amazing how long the early game lasts when research is slow and gems fairly scarce!

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I totally agree with you :)

I think these settings emphasize "normal" military prowess. If it weren't for ubber bless nations taking unfair advantage from this those settings would have been my favorite.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Well, good luck to the rest of you folks, It was fun while I was in the game, I'm sorry to bail on my nation, had very high hopes for it but I really don't have any time left for dominions any more, the last few turns by me were very careless and sloppy...

As always thanks to Calahan for keeping an eye on stalling nations and the overall game balance. :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Thank you Executor for playing with us. It's not much of a secret that you led your nation to a very good position.

I'm sorry that you're left with no time to see this through.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I've found a sub for executor's position, and they have already submitted the current turn. So everything should be good to go.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Is Mictlan player still there?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Mictlan still seems to be putting up a fight, or so it seems. Maybe they just need a reminder?

The other player that hasn't submitted yet is Pangaea, and they do seem almost done. Might have to resort to AI if they don't turn up soon?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Mictlan's player was just having a little bit of computer trouble. Looks like he's gotten that fixed now. Pangaea, well, he's in too it seems.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

By the way everyone, hosting is now at 96 hours as per the first post.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Due to being overloaded with work in real life, calahan has been forced to resign from this game. Calahan was playing... man.

So be careful about getting your turns in guys, he was my primary stale-alert ;)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

I'm sorry to hear that.

Has he switched control to the AI?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

No, I'm looking for a sub. Put out a sub hunting thread earlier today... hopefully it won't take too long to find a replacement, but I haven't gotten any hits yet.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Okay, a sub has been found. I'm adding 48 hours to the timer so that the sub has a chance to acquaint themself with the situation.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Mictlan player needs attenion as well in my opinion. He had 2 stales and about to stale again.

P.S. Thank you, rdonj for all your efforts and attention to the game, you're doing great job as admin! :up:
Also thanks to all players, this game has a low dropout percentage, I do really enjoy it.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Alright, I am sending a message to mictlan. If he stales again this turn I will begin looking for a sub.

Edit: Actually, mictlan is not looking so hot. It is probably not worth looking for a sub, unless the person killing them really wants one.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Mictlan has been prodded and assures me he will continue playing.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

rdonj
Thanks again.
It's the matter of balance nations are controlled by human players as long as possible. And if players start thinking their neighbours get free territories from AI while they fight very hard for every piece of land they tend to drop out from the game. In my experience finding a sub for a dying nation is far easier then for a large empire.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

Yeah, it does tend to be. I just wasn't sure how well it'd go over after I had just looked for another sub. But yes, as long as it is possible I will try to keep human players playing the nations in the game.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Running]
 

who played Pan?