Re: Viscious Circle 3
 

Welcome Home...That had to be an ordeal.

Re: Viscious Circle 3
 

Beginning turn 80, I am giving 3 turn notice on all my NAPs (turns 80, 81, 82 are the notice turns - offensive actions can be ordered turn 83). I'm sure this isn't a legitimate way to end some of them, but I can't actually remember what the conditions are! So don't consider this a declaration of war - this is an invitation to come renegotiate terms with Caelum so i can know what agreements I actually have! (This game has gone on so long that I had to clear out whatever messages there may have been, and I certainly can't remember at this point!)

Of course, if you don't communicate with me then any NAP we had will be void. I encourage communication.

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deleted

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We have a sub for Sauro...A person would like to see an endgame up close and personal....so be it.

Extended 10 hours for Squirrelloid (and to get the new guy up and running)

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I will be leaving town to play ball in Indy, early afternoon Friday and back Sunday evening.

IF we have our latest turn in The extension will be short lived...

If we don't I will require an extension thru Sunday.

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I have ROTC basically all weekend (31-32), so if it would be possible to make sure I don't stale that would be great.

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I have extended it another 24 hours for Trumanator who has ROTC and I will be gone till Sunday night anyway so we needed the rxtension already.

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Hi everyone. So, I was working on my turn and realized that I had so many magic items that I had to start dumping them on random commanders just to get enough room in the 40-slot lab to do stuff. The micromanagement required to run a turn 80 nation on a large map is just insane. And I'm beginning to realize that it's not that much fun anymore.

So I'm going to propose that we stop on the grounds of exhaustion. We can then postmortem the game and argue for a while about who was doing well, but first of all I would say anyone who played and had a good time is a winner.

(do not by the way take this as a request for an extension, I will get my turn in, don't worry. If everyone else is gung ho to continue I won't even look for a sub, though I may consider it in another 5 turns :smirk: )

- Alex, Helheim

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Well said! This game has continued beyond my beliefs and I second Alex's proposal.

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I do not mind the game ending. I've been considering just what would be required to actually win this game and crazy does not begin to cover it.

That said, I do have a lot of crazy at the moment, so there is certainly entertainment to be had in the game continuing...

Basically, I'll abide by whatever consensus decides.

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Dang..I would like to continue (of course it takes me about 30 min to do my turn as I am so little,

But I wanted to do some things with my 3500 S gems,

Lets see I have 3 wish casters so I could cast 3 Armageddon's every turn for around the next Month (until you find and kill me). Or perhaps alchemize and cast Burden of time and Utterdark, and THEN the occasional Armageddon.

Seriously, it is hard to see this game end on an exhaustion note.

I started this game...geeez, 6 or 7 months ago maybe? And learned a LOT watching you guys, It is like putting your dog to sleep or something.

Well, We have heard from 3 of the big dogs (lol, no pun intended:p)....let's figure it out as there is no use prolonging the inevitable.

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Sigh. So after promising that I would get my turn in, I staled. Missed the deadline by 8 minutes. What I get for failing to send in my turn yesterday when it was 99% finished. Bah.

The sad thing is, the strategic impact of staling is nearly nil as far as battles & territory lost. I just dread having to re-enter all of those orders again.

Lets see what Hinnom has to say.

- Alex

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Heh welcome to Dominion Endgame :) I hope in a patch or dom4 that they add more ways to automatise your orders...
I am having a lot of fun at the moment even with the impressive micromanagement, and thus wouldn't mind continuing for a while.

However I am aware that it won't be possible to finish this game before another 50 or 60 turns. This is why I prefer to stop here before everyone start looking for a sub or staling.

By the way, gems factory add too much to micromanagement and it is better to not use them on the next game. At turn 80 I have so many earth and astreal gems income that I cast a wizard tower each turn and wish for powers on my main scs.

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This is what I mean about learing...

1. What extra benifites do you get from Wizards Tower?

2. What extra powers can you wish for on a SC.

Since we won't finish anyway don't worry about 'Trade secrets:p'

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The wiki has a good description of Wish, see: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Wish

Wizard's Tower is just 'fast', because you spend gems instead of time and cash. Ie, you get the tower immediately in the magic phase.

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Squirelloid is right about Wizard tower. This is especially useful for Hinnom when all their city take 6 turn and a huge amount of cash to build.
It is most of the time considered as a waste of gem to cast wish to improve your scs as sooner or later they will die to a well designed counter
But in the case of Hinnom, they got unique unwishable scs... So I was taking the bet that even if they are killed I just have to summon them again and they retain their ability. I wanted to check if my theory was correct but unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to do it.

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Well, it looks like we have lost Trumanator also. He has only 8 provinces and I am not sure if he just quit Dom or what the situation is (Squirrelloid, can you help me on this please as FL and Truman are in every game I am in).

Helheim, I honestly believe is worn out in this game, Hinnom has seconded the honorable death of the game.

I 'think' ( he will speak for himself) Squirrel is ok either way.

I am just going along for the ride and learning exp, so what ever we do I can live with.

In fact I am in 3 games all in the 70's to 90's in turns and this one is the only one that I would consider I am here 'By your leave'.

It seems Frozen lama is a big part in 1 game (squirrel and I are both in) and he has 'retired' and I guess after trying to keep up with these longer and longer turns and the fiasco of the NVsV game, Ball season is here and my traveling every other weekend...

I am ready for a break from the game also...

So, if everyone agrees, I am ready to allow you guys to either declare a winner (me, me, me,:p)or we say job well done and let it die an honorable death.

Please voice some kind of a opinion asap.

I just wanted to thank everyone for allowing me to stick around and watch!!:up:

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Frozenlame and Trumanator are both banned from the forums, but they're still playing their games. If you want to PM them or chat with them you'll have to head to IRC or the New more-Sombre Forums. Not that Trumanator has much left to do in this game except be a prick and make it hard to invade Pan.

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I would declare Helheim as the winner of this game on base what I've seen so far, including:
1. Battles
2. Graphs
3. Diplomacy

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Helheim IS the biggest in most scores and has played an excellent game.

However, We are in the throes of a Late mid game/Early endgame and I would suppose Caelem would have something to say about the winner, as might Hinnom...especially if they allied.

Of course there is always the dark horse in the race (me me me)that could swing victory one way or the other with my massive forces.

You guys figure it out, I am just along for the ride, But I want either a victor or an agreement to let it die an honorable death as I don't think at this time I could condone a split decision as there are too many excellent players left.:up:

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LOL, and if he is in this long, why wouldn't he make it hard to invade Pan...Truman can be hard headed and won't quit easily is my expieriance with him:p

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Thanks for the vote, Lihaassa.

I do think it is premature to declare any "winner". As I said before, everyone who played and had fun is a winner.

I still want to kibbitz around the end game though.

So, the 3 big powers, me, Caelum, and Hinnom, made a pact to band together against Sauro. When Sauro finally is done, fighting might break out among the 3 of us. I was of course hoping not to be the ganged-up on, and had started tentatively negotiating with Hinnom to that effect. I think it is too early to say who would have ended up ganging up on whom; I had long-term productive alliances with Switzerland (er, Arco) and Ulm.

Caelum had a huge gem income. Was this mostly from the Well of Misery? (Does that show up in income? see, we're still noobs here). I was worried about that. So my judgement was that Caelum was more dangerous than Hinnom. Hinnom's SCs are uber, but he only has 7 of them (or is it 9?), and in Dom3 eventually any SC can be taken down with the right SC counter.

Which led to the epic wish tug of war for the Chalice. Ulm was doing the wishing, I was supplying him with astral gems. I am 90% certain that the power at the other end of the tug of war was Caelum. The thing is, after a while I realized that Caelum's gem income was such that they could keep the wish tug of war for The Chalice indefinitely. Yikes.

I got The Chalice very early, around turn 30-40, and produced about a tart per turn for a long time, but I kept losing them in battle, so by the end I think I was down to no more than a dozen fully capable Tarts.

VC3 was played under CBM 1.5, which now gets the dubious distinction of "the last version of CBM with gem gems". I would have to look to be sure, but I think at the end I had about 80 blood stones and about 30 clams. I noobishly did not grasp how important gem gens were until a bit late. Oh, and one fever fetish, just for the heck of it.

Another thing I am curious about is how close is my threat profiles to reality.

Hinnom has the 7 Grigori and some number of Baals/Melquarts. Are those Baal/Melquarts decent raiding SCs? By which I mean, can they all teleport, or only some of them? Did you have enough equipment to kit them all out fully? About how many did you have by the end?

Caelum has Eagle Kings, which are great raiders, but I was figuring that with that huge Death income the main threat from Caelum would actually be Tarts. About how many de-afflicted, GoRd Tarts did you have by the end, and how fast were you producing them? The other thing I wonder about Caelum is how much it matters that all of my thugs can cast resist lightning - by this late stage of the game, how capable is Caelum of using other than lightning attacks.

As for my own threat profile, it is difficult to overstate how cool Vanjarls are. I recruited one a turn from most of my castles most of the game. I put the new recruits to blood hunting, swapping out the ones with an experience star to do the actual fighting. With E9N4 bless, mistform, a golden shield and some brand, they are incredible thugs. What surprised me was how many spells that go against MR they would shrug off: paralyze, soul slay, enslave, etc. I suppose it helped that I had S4W4 in my bless as well. Even against Sauro's (admittedly rather poorly equipped) SCs, the careful plans I set up would not work, but then the Vanjarls would walk up and beat on the SC while being immune to whatever they were trying to do. (I was careful about making them eg fire-immune when I was going after the Fire Royalty, but, thats obvious). I think those experience stars matter a lot.

I'm curious to hear others' postmortems.

- Alex

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We actually calling this? Because I don't want to disclose state secrets unless we are =)

Oh, since its something that's pretty easy to figure out from the gem graphs, gems from global spells are shown in your gem total (you'll note i spiked exactly when Sauro dropped on the turn i put up the Well and took it from him).

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It looks pretty clear to me that we are calling it, but Grudge being the admin should formally announce it I guess.

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Hinnom has potentially 12 "uber" SCs, the 6 grigoris and their 6 children. The children are unique heroes with stats of a titan pretender and nice magic power as well. The most awesome thing is that those sons of Grigori can have heroic ability despite the fact they are unique.

Melquart are powerful thug (or light Scs :)). Some of them can teleport. Ba'al could be used as light Scs as well but I prefer to use them as battlemage to cast flame from the sky, earthquake, army of lead and spam petrify on Scs.

Because I played a nation that everyone consider unbalanced, my strategy was to not draw attention on me while keeping close to the leading nation. The longer the game last, the more powerful Hinnom become. I relied on luck scale to get powerful scs at the start and managed to get 2 grigoris' sons before turn 10. With trades agreement (thanks to Hellheim and Arco :D), I fully equiped them with magical items

On the SCs issue I had at the end the 6 grigoris (some powered by a wish spell) and 4 sons of grigori as main Scs. I had a dozen of melquarts designed as raiders or tartarian killers and a dozen ba'al as battlemage. Hinnom signed a pact with all demon lords as well as a few devils and for diversification I had a tart factory running (but without the chalice or GoF it wasn't very effective...)
After Sauro's fall my strategy was to either ally with Hellheim against Caelum or declare war on Hellheim while Caelum was busy elsewhere :D. I wanted to defeat Hellheim with a domkill. I started slowly and as soon as he would have seen the trick, I would have equipped all my sacrificers with a jade dagger and started to wish for more candles on the map. And this was how I plan to win the game as well: by turtling while spreading my dom.

Well thanks everyone for this long game I really enjoyed it and see you on another game.

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Ok, that looks like an official we're done, since Hinnom finally weighed in.

I have a mere 5-6 kitted tarts I think. Plus some random spellcasting tarts and a couple monstrum that came as commanders. However, I'm summoning between 2-4 tarts per turn - my limiting factor is definitely nature gems. I wasn't planning on relying as tarts for SCs in general (although raiding is definitely a possibility, but EKs also do that well).

I have ~12 un-GoRed Monstrums, which make a pretty convincing hit squad when Weapons of Sharpness is dropped on them and Army of Gold is cast (both trivial to accomplish)

I have a several dozen EKs fully kitted (I think the actual number is over 50), plus another dozen or so anti-demon/undead kitted EKs equipped to quickly eliminate tarts and uber-demon threats. (pretty minimal gear: Boots of Quickness + appropriate weapon + a useful armor to reduce fatigue accrual) These are all easily cloud trapezed at a moment's notice with my 500+ air gems that I've been stockpiling.

Full kit includes a flamebrand, shield of gleaming gold, silver hauberk, horror helm, boots of quickness, AMA and luck pendant. (They're also sacred and i have an E9N4S4 bless)

I have somewhere in the ballpark of 70-90 clams and am producing 2/trn every turn. I also have some number of bloodstones and am producing a little less than 1/trn.

I can drop about a dozen penetration +5 mindhunts at a moment's notice, in case anyone tries to raid me with non-astral combatants. Producing more is trivial - i could easily scale up to around 20 in a turn.

I have all 6 of my national summon uniques + a QoA.

I have quite a few Yazatas, and can summon vast numbers at a moment's notice. (Easily a couple hundred if i needed them).

I only use thunderstrike when I know my opponent is not prepared against it. It is hardly the most effective weapon in my arsenal.

I have around a dozen liches, most with staves and boots of flying. (4 of them are my tart summoners)

I have a Conj 20 site, and an Ench 30 site.

I have pretty easy access to E5, W5, A6+, S5+, and D7. I have limited access to F5 and N5. Almost all of this is teleportable or cloud trapezeable.

I have about a dozen stone spheres (mostly produced recently) with which i've been scanning the globe over the last 5-10 turns to see what the situation looks like.

If it wasn't for the chalice tug of war I was thinking about overcasting AN with a 999 gem investment, but I kept having to blow S on wishing for the chalice =p

So my endgame strategy was to (1) figure out who I'm at war with next, (2) figure out where they're vulnerable, (3) Use my capability to rapidly redeploy in order to sequentially eliminate all relevant assets with overwhelming force.

If both Hinnom and Helheim came after me, I was planning on killing Helheim first while dispatching whatever raiders Hinnom fielded. I was sort of hoping one of Helheim and Hinnom would go after the other, and I could hop in on the side of the losing participant (and this looks like it had a 50% shot of happening, based on Hinnom's comments). The Grigori sort of worry me, but I'd have to see them in action (something I have thus far managed to fail at doing).

But really, i didn't want to have to actually micro all that. I'm not joking when I say that I was seriously considering 1-turn 80-province air drops wherein the occasional fully geared EK was an acceptable loss.

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Wow...and my only strategy was to cast Burden of time a(as I have been hoarding boots of youth and a couple of other spells.

Is 999 the top amount you can put in a global because I thought I put more than that into AN.

It has been a learning exp and if everybody is done with the Micro-management and cringing at another 50 turns, I will call the game....But PLEASE can I hear 3 definite YES answers as I feel I owe that to you guys for letting me be the buffer and hanging around long enough to try stuff I have never done before,

I must say I have enjoyed this game as much as any I have played, I have played with new and old friends and watched them weave their magic. I am not near the same level as you guys but be careful...you guys have raised me several levels and you might...just might, find me in your backyard one of these days when you least expect it.

Let me know a definitive yes or no answer...I don't see a CLEAR winner and I know it is like kissing your sister, so i will leave it in your hands.

There will not be another turn hosted until we have a consensus.

Thanks for making my first real attempt at hosting a game a success!!!

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Base cost of global +999 is max. When I said 999 I actually meant 999 extra. (so 1149?)

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call the game: definite YES from me.

Interesting. I think I was right in guessing that Caelum was the bigger threat between H and C. I also think I was right in guessing that I was actually the weakest power of the 3 of us. I just took too many casualties in my wars with Tir na Nog and Sauro. Likewise, I used up too much of my gem supply in those wars - I ended with only about 60 air gems stockpiled, which is not enough for a serious late game cloud trapeze airdrop.

And I was right in suspecting that it was late enough that Caelum had diversified what they can do and lightning resistance alone was no longer important.

Domkill: that is a good idea, though I think by itself I could have countered it with my own blood saccing once I saw what was happening. Combined with raiding to destroy my blood hunting however it could well work; but in a full on war we would presumably have mutually destroyed each others blood economy with raiders. I had an income of around 50 blood slaves per turn at the end.

It is really impossible to say what would have happened. I think Hinnom and I were clever enough to figure out that Caelum was the biggest threat and ally against them. Would the two of us + Ulm have been enough to take them down? Who knows. Would fighting among the big 3 have weakened all of us to the point where Ulm had a chance? Maybe.

Very interesting game, indeed.

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(Sigh) NOBODY gives Switzerland any respect...Don't we protect the Pope for Heavens Sake (pun intended)!!!

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Well since everyone gave away their secrets, And I get a yes from Hinnon and Helheim....I am going to give this game the death it deserves, I will end it now with a smile, no one mad at each other and only positives came out of the game.

I hope you join my next one (it will be awhile though), but I think I will use CBM 1.6 from now on as I am finding out in these other games that if you don't have the gems to Gem Gen up, you are DEAD!!

Congratulations Men, you may delete your files. GOOD GAME TO ALL

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Thanks for all, this was a good game. I survived pretty much because of my PoD and good politics ;)

I still wait for a game without any subs needed.. but you can't have everything.. right?