Re: SP and SPAA Developments
 

Looks amazingly similar to the LAV-AD (1996-2004).

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Maybe two versions of the HIMARS?
(YES I know many OOBs don't have open slots.)
One "as is" for counteer-battery/area targets and a NLOS veersion?

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

My thought is you should still be able to assign HIMERS (Or similar.) targets as normal. Bridges and Buildings should hit those targets more accurately. FCS will take an inputted GPS Coordinates and drop the missiles where you want them to go regardless of source like HQ/Observer etc. etc. all you need is an electronic map or paper as some might still use map along with some means of comms.

And yes, HIMARS and all the artillery using STRIX, EXCALIBUR, BONUS and others will by extension be much more accurate.

What's killing these targets is the CEP is SO SMALL there really is no such thing as a near miss anymore UNLESS you fire off a defective round or have an FCS malfunction.

Those odds would be extremely low.

Modern (Over the last 30+ years until the last ten years when we first start to see these CEP <5m systems.) artillery FCS's compensate for all of the below.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1043284.pdf

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

On a separate issue, this what I tried to convey concerning the German PATRIOT System as being mobile as the picture shows where Germany is sending more of those systems to the Ukraine.

Europe was smart enough to figure out that since so many of their countries are so small a more mobile PATRIOT (NASAMS, IRIS-T, IRON DOME etc. ) system was needed to shoot and scoot with a reload capability of less than 15 minutes.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...le_system.html

PATRIOT with a truck and trailer is much less maneuverable and much more time consuming in set up and reloading even though the PATRIOT can be fired while trailer mounted.
https://newatlas.com/military/ukrain...-game-changer/

WHAT's Coming...
https://www.army.mil/article/154848/...ivery_ceremony

The German MAN 8x8 (And the others named above.) doesn't have those limitations to include they're much faster as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Given that Patriot is a two-part (missile and radar) system mobility for the launcher isn't near as important as for the radar.
BUT since WinSPMBT doesn't have separate radars ...

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

That of course has always been the case.

But launchers are also prime targets, and the AI knows this well that's why mobile units are important in the game as in the RL.

I've suffered both air and artillery attacks on my "stationary" SAM sites.

Fortunately, I defend in layers and ensure I have some artillery on hand to minimize my losses.

AI Russia has consistently in the last 3-4 Campaigns come at me with aircraft/helos or both.

So, I find myself reacting to the threat. It's happening so much during those campaigns I've spent assets to include them in my core units now.

But I also maintain the AI at near peer or at peer "financially" if you will to see what it buys and how it's used in battle.

It "seems" to keep things fresh, challenging and unpredictable.

Though seems at times to have a "thing" for mobile ammo supply units.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

For my part whenever possible I move SAMs the turn after they fire (via transports if needed) and ALWAYS leave at least one off-map artillery battery (when available) with no orders because that increases the chance they'll do counter-battery.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Re: HIMARS rockets
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/...202.1%20meters).

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

https://kyivindependent.com/denmark-...raine-says-pm/

There's a lot of translation wariness. Is it just shells or is it also the artillery pieces as well?

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Well, if they give all their ammunition stocks to Ukraine, they might as well give all of their tubes.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Denmarks real contribution in hardware will be the Caesar 8x8 which has the FCS of the newer Caesar 6x6 NG. Both will feature new redesigned armored cabs with the 8x8 having much better mobility AND carry more onboard ammo (Off the top I believe that to be 46 to 48 Rds. to include BONUS.)

Denmark had 8 or 10 and as I’ve already posted, France is fulfilling the order of a total of 18 units Denmark wanted and ship them to the Ukraine when completed.

With the improvements on the Caesar NG, as of last reporting Denmark will probably buy them as they are “cheaper” and can buy a few more of that version.

Denmark is/was the ONLY operator of the 8x8 version prior to the donation to the Ukraine.

The NG will also be more mobile than the original Caesar from the lessons learned from all the other user countries.

Since I’m at it, the UK testing of the Archer is going very well to include the very recent live fire tests that were conducted. My impression is they are definitely “fast tracking” it. With that in mind I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t reach FOC by JUL or early Fall. We’ll see. ;)

Since I’m on the UK, AJAX just recently completed Winter Ops testing in SWEDEN. However, as already posted from MOD and Parliament sources; there are no changes to IOC and FOC status of which both are after 2025.

At least for UK RL this bodes well for the Army overall thus far.

And since we’re on SWEDEN welcome to NATO! :party: :clap: :cheers:

For the “Other Guy” all he gets will be a mean :viking: !

Back to vacation mode since we saw them Sunday they’re undefeated (They lost the opener on Saturday.) and hope they keep it up for our last game later today. I’m happy to have had such an influence on the team!?! :D :rolleyes: :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

I should've asked all the questions from the previous page.

First Denmark has ONLY USA imported HIMARS and the afore mentioned CAESAR 8x8 with 19 UNITS.

This will include their entire stock of ammo of unknown quantity.

Also, regarding further ammo resupply the Czech Republic has a ready stock of 800,000 rounds of artillery shells made up of 500,000 155mm and 300,000 122mm. All they need is for someone to pay for it and then they can have them all delivered within a few weeks.
https://www.businessinsider.com/denm...sia-war-2024-2
https://www.defensemagazine.com/arti...ster-announces

Germany as part of its most recent arms package will send 14,000 155mm rounds and 4 WINSENT 1 MCV's etc.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html

Netherlands has approved 100 million Euros for several 100,000's worth of artillery shells.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...r_ukraine.html

And they're NOT done; it's not the DANA or DANA 2 it is a new system of SPA called the DITA. It has a 2-man crew with a fully automated turret/ROF 5 Rds. PM/Onboard 155mm Ammo 40 Rds./TATRA 8x8 w/ Tatra T3C-928-90 engine with 300 kW output, giving it a maximum speed of 90 km/h on roads and 25 km/h off-road, with a range of 600 kilometers. /Armored Cab and Turret etc. etc.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...r_ukraine.html

Seems like we need a few more Female Prime Ministers and maybe a President here as they've been more aggressive in doing what's necessary to support the Ukraine to avoid a wider war which Germany and a couple of others think will happen by 2025/or 2026.

I hope they're wrong. I'm more about the old 1942 song written in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor; "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" to include Tanks/Tubes and everything else.

Concerning my Mets ball club, well they stayed undefeated while there and today when we left to head home yesterday morning. I guess we just have this "Aura" around us from today on we just wish them luck until the first "Subway Series" in the regular season, you see CINCLANTHOME is a true Yankee Fan!?! :p :down: :angel

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Hope nobody did any serious thought as to a icon/OOB slot for ERCA in the US OBAT.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...totype-effort/

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Nope..........

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

US Army just deployed their new TYPHON system to the Philippines.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...e-philippines/

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...e-mrc-battery/

It's basically a containerized VLS system on trailers -- can fire either SM-6 Standard or Tomahawk Land Attack Missile.

Yes; that's not a typo; they basically took a USN shipboard SAM and made it into a land based SAM.

Currently, the US has two batteries -- one in the philippines now and one working up in CONUS.

I'm not sure whether to add it to the database because we don't know if the Army is going to double down, and get 8 batteries and keep it for the next 35 years or kill it in the next five years.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

In many ways this is a weapon system that is beyond the scope of the game........at best borderline

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but soon we might have some data points on the effectiveness.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/...s-middle-east/

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

It's good to see we can get it right, M-SHORAD is no more; the system is now officially called the Sgt. Stout as of Saturday 15 June 2024.

From Ref. 2
"The first two SGT STOUT battalions are in Germany and at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and the Army recently fielded its third battalion at Fort Cavazos, Texas, in February. In April of 2024, six SGT STOUT vehicles and more than 40 Soldiers provided effective short-range air defense during live-fire exercises as part of DEFENDER 24's Saber Strike exercise in Poland, demonstrating the ability to protect Soldiers like its namesake."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ar...85886340&ei=48
https://www.army.mil/article/277291/...onor_recipient
https://crsreports.congress.gov/prod.../IF/IF12397/11
(I used this source as a primary reference dealing with TRICARE For Life.)

I had posted on this system early but quite frankly haven't tracked it for a while. I only knew the Army was fast tracking the system since it's using both an existing platform and weapons. What's new is the Radar and FCS.

As supported by Ref. 3
". In April 2021, the 5th Battalion, 4th Air Defense Artillery Regiment received the first four of its M-SHORAD systems, becoming fully equipped by late 2022."

If we go with the above and Ref. 2 using the word "fielded" that mean START JAN 2023.

But others are saying 2025 for full fielding. The refs. are in line that the only system out there is the Sgt. Stout increment 1 systems of which Ref. 3 goes into detail on that and more.

I think the safe bet here is to "split the difference" and use START JAN 2024.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

We have the Taiwanese CM-32 however it seems like we missed both the CM-33 and CM-34. along the way.

Not so much worried about the CM-33 but, the CM-34 though sharing the same chassis as its predecessors; comes in at 2 tons heavier part of that is due to the turret but the rest has to be I suspect due to some kind of applique armor upgrade as well.

They are in service as APC/IFV and 120mm mortar carrier in regard to the CM-34.

Track for 120mm/82mm mortar carrier for the CM-32 and likewise in regard the CM-34 also with the 81mm mortar carrier.

Starting with the CM-32 tests and a PROTOTYPE(s) were built for a "Fire Support" version with both a 105mm and 120mm.

This did not materialize for the CM-32. For the CM-34 PROTOTYPE testing should've been completed by the end of last year or very early this year.
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights...v-for-delivery
"The vehicle is derived from the common 6.35 m long, 2.7 m wide, and 2.2 m high welded steel hull also used by the in-service CM-32 and CM-33 Cloud Leopard armoured personnel carriers (APCs), although the CM-34 has a combat weight of 24 tonnes as opposed to the 22 tonnes of the earlier variants."

What perplexes me is why there are no AT versions.

They have the following NOW for their helos they wouldn't to modify them much also they've been operating TOW for decades.
TAIPERS as noted is in the field and placing TOW in the process.
"Comprising four major sub-sections (seeker, propulsion, control mechanism, and battery) and the optical fibre cable at the rear, the missile has a smokeless solid-propellant rocket motor, which gives it a cruise speed of about 200 m/s and a maximum strike range of 8 km. Hanwha has said the missile can penetrate up to 1,000 mm of rolled homogeneous armour (RHA).

The DAPA spokesperson said the missile will arm the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) Light Armed Helicopter (LAH) and MUH-1 Marineon helicopters of the Republic of Korea Marine Corps (RoKMC) from 2024."
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights...-tank-missiles

Yeah, just realized I got this in the wrong thread @^!-****! :doh:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Methinks unit 39 should be the CM-34 with some further adjustments. We go with the data we have at the time and as usual things change. The first version of this went in 2 decades ago

Both need to be reworked and additional vehicles added.....on the list

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Lithuania is starting the groundwork to withdraw from the cluster munition pact.

A draft resolution was put forth by the Lithuanian Ministry of Defense; if it's ratified by the President and Parliament, Lithuania will withdraw from the Convention and the country will no longer be prohibited to procure, stockpile and use cluster munitions.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Revisiting this in light of the recent news that the Army will now deploy Typhon to Europe as well.

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/07/...e-its-borders/

While I agree with you that two (Tomahawk and future Hypersonic Weapon) of Typhon's missiles are beyond the scope of SPMBT; the third -- the SM-6 Standard Missile -- isn't.

The SM-6 is approximately 3,300 lb (1,500 kg) -- it's a very big, very long ranged missile -- comparable in size to Russian (OBAT11) Unit 294 - S-300PS which has the 5V55K S-300K weapon -- that specific Russian SAM is 3,260 lb (1,480 kg).

Additionally, SM-6 is the first major ARH SAM the US has (other than Patriot PAC-3 which is optimized more for ABM engagements) -- it has an enlarged, bigger AIM-120D seeker head; a big difference over classic PATRIOT.

US heavy SAMs have gone through three different generations of guidance:

Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH) (Nike Ajax/Hercules) -- Radar on ground illuminates target, and missile homes in on reflected energy.

Track Via Missile (TVM) (PATRIOT PAC-1 & PAC-2) - Radar on ground illuminates target, and missile homes in on reflected energy; but can also transmit a digital "picture" of what it's seeing back to the ground unit, enabling it to deal with heavy clutter/jamming/ECM.

Active Radar Homing (ARH) (SM-6 / PATRIOT PAC-3 / S-400) -- In addition to the above modes; there's an active seeker in the missile, so the missile can autonomously home; as well as get a better picture from being much closer to the target than the launcher radar.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

https://www.delfi.lt/ru/news/politic...asov-120037152

Google translated

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Still cleaning!

USA: I completely forgot the next as the date of the article will clearly show. That being said it has happened and we got them. I speak of the French BONUS rounds. Concerning Ref. 1 & 2 we purchased additional BONUS rounds on Mar 03, 2020.
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/u-s-army-...om-bae-systems
https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/155-bonus
(Good review of capabilities an "click" on News to confirm above and additional orders.

So, we have the above date for what I believe to be the second order.

I found a couple of sources to show the USA and by extension the USMC (I had posted an article of Marines in an exercise I believe in Africa with the French firing the BONUS from our 155mm about the time of the above date.) had these rounds in 2000. I've thrown the BS Flag in the air when I saw that date. That was the year that France and Sweden put them in service. In 2008 the French used them in combat for the first time.

I can't find an initial START for them but, based on the above information I feel comfortable in recommending A START for BOTH the USA and USMC of UPDATED NOW TO JAN 2019. See next.

Found the following during my UK BONUS informational search. This dated 09 OCT 2018.
https://www.baesystems.com/en/articl...ided-munitions

And like the tanks the CORPS had, they get their ammo from the Army as well; they "own" the arsenals (Picatinny, N.J. etc.) and are responsible for the procurement of the same from private industry.

UK: Are operationally now using what is considered probably still the best SPA out there ("Shoot and Scoot" 30s or slightly less. ). The British Army has been training on these for quite some time so they're ready to use them now.
UK/ADD/ARCHER/COPY/SWEDEN/BW L52 ARCHER/UNIT 416/START JUN 2024/END DEC 2030/AMMO/BONUS ALSO PROCURED. //
https://www.armyrecognition.com/news...oogle_vignette

As a side note SWEDEN has purchased the latest version of ARCHER 8x8.
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/additiona...ion-for-sweden
(This will require further research, seem to remember posting a different article from Military-Today on it-miss that site from the Ukraine.)

MBT will have to wait it's late I'm tired and go back to work later this afternoon.

So Good Whatever!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

The Archer is already in the Brit OOB. albeit 2 months early. both as an on and off map unit

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Some data on the Belgian M109A2/M109A3 upgrade program into the M109A4BE standard:

https://x.com/ChungTzuW/status/18198...587476/photo/3

Includes a decent angled away top photo from the rear.

https://x.com/ChungTzuW/status/18198...587476/photo/2

Data on the Semi Automatic Loader (SAL) they put into the M109A4BE modernization.

What happened was that as soon as the modernization of all 64 x M109A4BE was completed in 2015; they were immediately put up for sale by the (then) Defense Minister André Flahaut.

The private company that bought them in 2015 then turned around and sold them in 2022 to the UK who further rehabbed them and sent them to Ukraine.

https://armyrecognition.com/news/arm...yed-in-ukraine

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Russia's missing Buk-M1-2, Buk-M2, Buk-M3, S-350 Vityaz', S-500 Prometheus, Tornado-G (BM-21 Grad's successor with newly developed ammo, increased range up to 40 km, faster firing capability with better precision and armor pen).

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Proposition to use OOB Red for store Soviet Union/Russian weapons of less importance in similar way like in SPWW2 store rare German equipment in Blue OOB that may free many necessary slots in soviet/Russia OOB

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Been tracking on this for a handful++ months now. Now we have the first operational model built. The Gepard 1.5 which was specifically designed for the Ukraine's on-going war in a target rich environment where it WILL excel more than the already very highly successful Gepard has been serving.

Skyranger 35 has been around for many years now and I believe the Ukraine has already been using a purpose-built truck mounted version I believe I posted. Skyranger is in here as well from several years ago.

It is expected that the Ukraine will get these in 2025 (Mid-maybe.) after all testing has been completed which it is about to start.

Keep in mind the original use (And current still as improved since.) was for static point defense for airfields, bases and important national asset defense. Generally specking they would be pedestal mounted.

I point this out because the ammo load cited in the article is the same as the static system.

Obviously, a BIG difference between that and a LEOPARD 1A5 tank that carried 55 105mm rounds it should be able to carry 750 -1000 35mm rounds but, we'll see as the time comes closer or sooner.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...6b88508d&ei=10

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Very much WIP
https://i.imgur.com/2QOFhar.png

Skyranger system turret on a 1a5 and Boxer hull

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

I went back into my files, so this next was from June this year and quite frankly don't remember if I posted it or not. But I was right in my assertion that the Ukraine did receive the 6X6 MAN truck version with the Skyranger 35. I believe they got them around the new year and a handful more since. (They did get them.)

Also, if this article is correct for the LEOPARD 2 (And not likely to be fielded due to a shortage of A4 tanks.) version carries 228 in the revolver which closely aligns with my last post which also does a better job of describing the AHEAD round. I still believe they should have a reload capability which I'll look into.

The turret allows for the optional installation of two Mistral or Stinger missiles. Ref. 2

Germany will field their BOXER with either latest Minstrel or modified Mells for the Skyranger 30/35 systems.

And finally with that ammo can you image what it'll do to light armor or especially dismounted troops?
"The Skyranger gun system is also effective against ground targets and can be used as a fire support weapon. It uses Frangible Amour-Piercing Discarding Sabot (FAPDS) rounds against ground targets. Range of effective fire is about 5 000 meters."
https://militaryleak.com/2020/08/15/...ircraft%20guns.

6x6 MAN truck version pictured at the bottom of the ref. 1
https://www.armyrecognition.com/news...tem-in-ukraine
https://itc.ua/en/news/rheinmetall-p...tank-platform/

Why wait... from the following 2 refs. as follows:
"Ready to fire ammunition: 252x30mm, 1,000x7.62mm"
https://www.rheinmetall.com/Rheinmet...yranger-30.pdf

And...
"Ready to fire ammunition: 252 rounds"
https://www.rheinmetall.com/Rheinmet...yranger-35.pdf

Ready to fire is code for if we live through firing our initial loadout of ammo you can bet, we have plenty more. That even goes for Torpedoes! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

https://i.imgur.com/3baJufc.png

WIP

There are also fixed-ground versions of this system

https://root-nation.com/wp-content/w...nex-0.jpg.webp

And yes...... it would be nasty against ground targets. A Bradley on Steroids

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

And a Gepard II---------------WIP

https://i.imgur.com/0ku0wPD.png

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

At the rate of fire for this gun a one second burst would be 16 rounds so 250 rounds would last 16 bursts

There could easily be a burst fire round limiter that could be adjusted to only fire a preselected number with every press of the trigger which would be the way to go with something like that........ the MP5 SMG had that capability with a 3 shot bursts setting 40 years ago and it's a simple mechanical device

I fired one once. With the three shot burst set you don't miss

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

What I meant was like a BRADLEY the 25mm duel fed gun has HE I believe Jake said on the left and DU on the right the gun will fire both at the same time, once ammo is expended the crew can reload again.

Also this is very important in fixing detection etc. ranges whether operating independently or tied in they all have Air-Ground AESA Radar. Think F-22, F-35 F-15 last model and F-15EX. Plus, some foreign ones as well. AESA is an over the horizon detection and targeting component more so of course in a jet.

As you can see from the land-based version there might be some limitation in reloading unless it's done automatically. That system is tied into the "SkyMaster" system. As I already had it, now below.

The vehicle mounted one's work both autonomously and can be tied (Or not. ) into "SkyMaster" if augmenting the defense of an airfield etc. etc.

Bottom line is the mobile units must be able to carry more ammo as has been suggested in couple of those articles.

Just makes sense like a BRADLEY etc.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/ol...nger-35-turret
https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/produ...defence-skynex

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Seemed like an 8-round burst in the video with 152 tungsten steel balls per shell.
https://www.rheinmetall.com/Rheinmet...MD062-RWMS.pdf

Applied against infantry, soft and light armor it would be almost OK distantly similar to what the what the SHERIDAN Canister round did to the Viet Cong and as most vividly described in the book "BLACK HORSE RIDERS" by Philip Keith. A true story of a rescue mission to help an Infantry Company that "stumbled" on a North Vietnamese stronghold that outnumbered them by 6:1.

The canister round carried each 10,000-dart like flechettes it was used to clear a "road" through heavy underbrush and elephant grass etc. and of course as an anti-personal weapon. Have seen it in other books about Vietnam but this a single battle focused book that described the cannister shot as literally picking up soldiers off the ground and pinning (Dead) against the trees in some instances. The rest I leave to your imagination.

Also, as a side note the author provided information concerning both the SHERIDAN and M113 ACAV on the latter he mentions based on the experiences of the ARVN from 1962 on (They made modifications on them as well and he noted them.) so that when the USA modified theirs that by 1965 they all had been modified with "Belly Armor", .50 Cal with shielded turret (I remember this in game.) but also it carried 2 M-60s mounted internally with shields in the left and right rear of the unit (I don't remember this HOWEVER it's been a longtime since I played USA in that time period.)

Anyway, I'm done for tonight and back at it tomorrow.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Well.... my test unit had a total ammo load of 32 so I would say that's dead on 8 rounds

Also. for those interested, I have test Kamakaze drone built using existing game code and weapons that is capable of taking out a hovering Helo or a ground unit or acting like a mobile IED which was not the original focus of my testing at all but I will take that as a bonus

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status...00884364296521

Taiwan has received it's first batch of M142 HIMARS launchers + associated GMLRS rockets; along with it's troops finishing training in the US on the system.

=======================

https://x.com/ELMObrokenWings/status...60927608701020

Swiss Federal Office for Defence Procurement armasuisse has concluded its evaluation process for a new artillery system, selecting the AGM Artillery Gun Module on Piranha IV from KNDS Deutschland. This decision marks a significant step towards modernising the Swiss Armed Forces

=======

https://armyrecognition.com/news/arm...m109-howitzers

Switzerland Selects AGM Artillery Module on Piranha IV to Replace M109 Howitzers.

Defense News Army 2024

On November 5, 2024, Switzerland took a decisive step toward modernizing its artillery capabilities by selecting a new system. Armasuisse, the Federal Office for Defence Procurement, concluded its evaluation and now recommends acquiring the AGM (Artillery Gun Module) mounted on the Piranha IV vehicle from Germany’s KNDS. This funding request will be presented to Parliament as part of the 2025 Army Message to initiate the replacement process.

The AGM, integrated with the Piranha Heavy Mission Carrier (HMC), represents a significant advancement in modern artillery by combining mobility and firepower. Developed jointly by KNDS Deutschland and General Dynamics European Land Systems (GDELS), this system is defined by its fully automated, crewless 155mm (caliber 52) artillery piece mounted on the Piranha HMC. Weighing 40 tons and boasting a turning radius of less than 18 meters thanks to its four-axle steering, the system provides exceptional tactical mobility. The Piranha HMC's 10x10 multi-link chassis platform allows it to fire on the move without deploying stabilizing supports—an uncommon capability among wheeled self-propelled artillery systems. The vehicle is operable by a two-person crew, with an option to add a third member or additional storage.

The AGM module offers advanced capabilities, including 360º firing, "Shoot & Scoot" functionality, and MRSI (Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact), enabling simultaneous strikes on multiple targets. With its ability for both direct and indirect fire and its capacity to engage moving targets on land and sea, the AGM on Piranha HMC is a versatile and resilient solution. Its command, navigation, and fire control systems operate autonomously, reducing crew workload through integrated robotic intelligence. The AGM module is also compatible with the 8x8 Boxer vehicle, enhancing NATO interoperability and facilitating cooperation among member forces.

Switzerland's artillery modernization project comes as the current self-propelled M109 howitzer, in service for over 50 years, nears the end of its operational life. Recognizing the need to maintain and enhance medium-range indirect fire capabilities with improved precision and mobility, the Swiss Army, led by Armasuisse, launched the "Artillery Platform and Equipment" (WPWM) project. This initiative, which began with a project contract in 2019, aims to identify a solution that meets the army’s needs through a wheeled vehicle suited for modern battlefield requirements.

This renewal project is extensive and multifaceted, encompassing not only the artillery platform replacement but also its integration with the Swiss Army’s communication, command, and fire control systems. It also includes training and simulation solutions and a complete logistics support framework to ensure system maintenance. An initial munitions procurement is also planned to guarantee full operational readiness upon deployment.

The candidate evaluation process began with a call for tenders from multiple international manufacturers. Based on Swiss military requirements, Armasuisse shortlisted two candidates in 2022: the Archer Mobile Howitzer from Sweden’s BAE Systems Bofors and the KNDS-proposed 155mm AGM artillery module, mounted on two possible platforms, Boxer and Piranha. This selection led to rigorous testing, including logistical, technical, and operational evaluations conducted in close cooperation with the industry and several army units, such as the Army Logistics Base, the Training Command, and the Operations Command.

From January 2023 to June 2024, both systems underwent in-depth testing, including logistical trials, technical assessments of the main weapon abroad, mobility tests on Swiss road networks and rough terrain, as well as exercises involving both professional soldiers and Swiss militia members. Live demonstrations and firing tests were conducted in collaboration with foreign military forces and other defense authorities.

Following this evaluation phase, the AGM system on KNDS’s Piranha IV emerged as the most advantageous offering, meeting Armasuisse’s tactical, technical, logistical, economic, and sustainability criteria. This selection marks a turning point for Swiss artillery equipment, providing a modernized indirect fire capability on a platform meeting the highest technological standards. In the coming months, the project team will focus on integrating the AGM's communication and command systems with the Piranha IV. Preparations for the 2025 Army Message funding proposal are also underway to ensure prompt financial support.

Switzerland’s M109 self-propelled howitzers, officially designated as "15.5 cm Self-Propelled Howitzer M109 KAWEST WE," have been acquired in several phases since 1968, forming the backbone of the Swiss motorized artillery. While they have been periodically upgraded, with combat improvements in 1995 and updates in 2012, this system—recently granted a usage extension in 2021—now shows signs of obsolescence. Acquiring the AGM artillery module on Piranha IV opens a new era for the Swiss Armed Forces, equipping them with a more mobile, precise artillery capability suited to modern conflict requirements.

The acquisition of the new AGM-mounted Piranha IV howitzers will bring several advantages to the Swiss Army. First, these systems offer increased mobility due to their 10x10 wheeled chassis, allowing rapid redeployment and greater operational flexibility compared to the older tracked M109 howitzers. This mobility is further enhanced by the ability to fire while on the move, reducing vulnerability to counter-battery fire.

Secondly, the fully automated 155mm caliber 52 AGM reduces crew workload and improves firing rates. The system's enhanced range and accuracy enable more effective medium-range strikes, meeting modern battlefield demands. Additionally, integration with Swiss communication and command systems ensures better coordination and optimized response times during operations.

Lastly, these new howitzers strengthen interoperability with NATO forces, supporting joint exercises and multinational missions. Overall, introducing the AGM on Piranha IV modernizes Swiss artillery, offering a combination of mobility, firepower, and technological compatibility to address contemporary challenges.

=============================================

There's a very good chance that this system could influence the US Army's M109 replacement program evaluations in FY25 -- the Piranha IV is basically a very close cousin to the Stryker family...

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Wip

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1730859467

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

KNDS Plans to Deliver First RCH 155 to Ukraine in April 2025


https://mil.in.ua/en/news/knds-plans...in-april-2025/

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Ukraine:

https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Ukrainian forces modified a 9K33 Osa surface-to-air system to fire R-73 (AA-11 Archer) short-range air-to-air missiles.

The project, funded by
@BackAndAlive
, is the first time a charity has modernized a SAM system like this.

"The aviation missile has some advantages, because it works on the "fire it and forget it" principle, it does not need to be accompanied like a regular Osa missile. Immediately after firing the R-73, you can move from your position so as not to receive a retaliatory strike,"

Photos in this:

https://x.com/kvistp/status/1866913690311602410

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

I'm dealing with an overload of issues ATM....... I cannot find this weapon in the game. It may be under a different name or number designation.

If you know where it is let me know

The other question is does it do anything better "game-wise" than the existing SAM inventory......... like the SA-8b Gecko that is already in the already crowded OOB?

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Well, you will find this interesting Ukraine has been doing some modifications which is fielded and unfortunately might complicate the issue.

Ukraine has had the R-73 apparently for a longtime it was designed to be an Air-to-Air missile.

The R-73 is the better missile with double the range of the Gecko. Just about across the board overall it's pretty much in all the categories head-to-head.

I've gotten myself sick and CINCLANTHOME just came out to get me.

What's interesting is what launcher they chose to use for the R-73. think GECKO.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/news...n-military-aid
https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-mod...-new-missiles/

I desperately need to get some sleep as I'm still a "working man" ;) and before I get a return visit!?! :sick: :eek:

Hope my answer on Rosamak turret helped?

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

From Wiki:

NATO ended up testing a pile of them when East Germany fell; and found that the R-73 was far more capable than the Sidewinders of the era (1990), which forced development of all the modern short range missiles (AIM-9X, etc) by NATO.

A close analog would be OBAT12 USA - Weapon 129 - MIM-72 SAM used for the M48 Chaparral; with adjustments to account for:

Greater Range (R73 is 6.5 inches in diameter versus 5 inches for Sidewinder -- that 1.5 extra inches gives more range)

Slightly Improved Accuracy (accounting for off-axis capability of R73 seeker head)

But as you said, the AFU OBAT is getting pretty crowded; and we don't know just how many of these new FrankenSAMs are being made.

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

I had a full post ready to send and my new keyboard bit me in the ***

IN THE GAME from the info I have found the R-73 would use pretty much the same stats as the existing Ukraine weapon 140 9M33M3 Osa but with the max game range of 255 and a WH of 11 instead of 10 the 9M33M3 has

In RL the R-73 would be an improvement...... especially when the supply of 9M33M3's have dried up but in the game I don't see it making any difference at all but I will build a unit and wait and see what develops between now and whenever we finally release V18

Right now I see this as a minor upgrade but in RL this is an important modification to a weapon I assume they and others who support Ukraine have a significant stock of

AH!............."All anti-aircraft missile regiments of Ukraine’s Land Forces equipped with the Osa system have received these upgraded systems."-

https://armyrecognition.com/focus-an...reign-supplies

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Here's another question........ how many does it carry ?

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Apparently, they have been looking for ways to use this for a while.......May 7, 2024 for the naval drone

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and...les-10421.html

Ukrainian Magura V5 ( Marine ) Drone Equipped with R-73 Anti-Aircraft Missiles

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Well...... we are down to 13 unused weapons slots as they received the SAMP/T at the end of September


https://kyivindependent.com/italy-to...-of-september/

Re: SP, MLRS and SPAA Developments
 

Called out at 0530, so simply put the R-73 is superior to the 9M33 missiles.

I did some further "back checking" on my two sources from my last post.

So,
1) I'm not going to make this hard on myself, so I feel comfortable just to "cut and paste" from them.

2) It'll show a clear separation between the two.

9M33/GECKO
"The original 9K33 Osa system, equipped with various 9M33 series missiles, has a range of up to 7.5 miles and relies on radio command guidance."

However, I have found enough to support the following from ref. 1 last post same para.
The version most likely in use by Ukraine is the Osa-AKM (SA-8B Gecko Mod-1) , which employs 9M33M3 missiles with a maximum range of 9.3 miles and a ceiling of 40,000 feet. Unlike the original model, which carries four exposed missiles, the Osa-AKM features six missiles housed in box-type containers. (I believe in game that's the picture we have x6.

R-73/NATO AA-11 Archer
"The modified Osa systems can now carry a pair of rail-launched R-73s, replacing the standard canisterized 9M33 missiles. The R-73, a short-range missile with an infrared homing head, is designed for intercepting and destroying highly maneuverable enemy aircraft and drones in close air combat. It is effective day and night, from any direction, against targets in both the front and rear hemispheres and performs well under active electronic countermeasures. "

Further from my ref. 2 last post.
"Key characteristics of the R-73 include its ability to lock onto targets after launch (LOAL), allowing it to engage highly maneuverable and fast-moving aerial targets. The missile has a thrust-vectoring system, which enhances its maneuverability, making it highly effective in dogfights. It has an operational range of up to 30 kilometers (18.6 miles vs. 9.3 miles for GECKO.) and can engage targets at altitudes from 500 meters (1640 feet.) to 20 kilometers (65,600+ feet vs. 40,000 feet for GECKO.) . The R-73 is equipped with a high-explosive fragmentation warhead and an infrared seeker, providing all-aspect targeting capability, allowing it to strike targets from any angle."

This is like comparing "Apples to Oranges".
https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-mod...-new-missiles/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/news...n-military-aid
(Reposted from last.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/1064-9K33%20Osa
(The main page pictured unit (Bulgaria) is the same as was operated by the Ukraine 6-Luancher version.)
https://ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-PLA-PD-SAM.html#Gecko
(Scroll down 3/4 of the page.)
https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-...mozTocId969013
(Pay attention what we are discussing which is a modification of an Air-to-air missile. However, it's worth the view for characteristic purposes.
Scroll down near bottom of page.)
https://ausairpower.net/search.html
(Homepage and about the best in what they do IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO DO SO.)

That was "SHORT and QUICK" :p just the way Don likes them to be. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt: