Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe you like realtime. I do not. (if pauseable or not)
To claim that SEV will be better with a RT modus is a pure assumption and a matter of taste. I (and I am sure many old vets of the SE series too) can live without it.

tschüß
Klaus</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh God, you are joking aren't you? Surely Shrapnel won't do this? So-called realtime combat in MOO3 is my biggest gripe, and I don't see the justification for it - it's just eye-candy, and gets in the way.

As you can tell, I play SEIV in non-simultaneous tactical combat mode, exclusively. The only way you'll get me playing a RTS-style game is if I can pause and slow it down to my speed, or (preferably) turn it off.
Steve.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And you would be acomplishing exactly the same, one shot per missile..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

With speed 30 they behave like real missiles now. There no more outrunning the missile. If you are far away you might still get out of range, cause the missile still behaving like a cruise missile, launching in one turn and flying to target in the next, so if you see missiles launched and you dont have PDCs, make a run for your life.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Also, this uber-missile benefits mostly the AI, cause we humans know that pound by pound missiles are not worth the effort. They weight too much and reload too slow. Even the lowly Meson BLaster is a better weapon.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It will certainly make strategic combat better.
Tactical combat would be hit hard, if not removed altogether.

Although, if instead of jsut play and pause, you had a "step forward" button that would leave the game paused, but move it a head some minimum amount of time, it would effectively become turn based in tactical... Seeing the missiles and torpedoes and beams paused in mid-flight would be pretty cool too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

SJ: That solution works too, and just goes to prove that real-time can be not bad at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And you would be acomplishing exactly the same, one shot per missile..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Increasing the seeker damage resistance wouldn't be exactly the same effect, though it would be similar in some ways.

I would tend to recommend taking advantage of the new ability in 1.84 for giving seekers a to-hit penalty. Unfortunately, it is applied in Settings.txt to all seekers, rather than being assignable per weapon model.

Quote:

With speed 30 they behave like real missiles now. There no more outrunning the missile. If you are far away you might still get out of range, cause the missile still behaving like a cruise missile, launching in one turn and flying to target in the next, so if you see missiles launched and you dont have PDCs, make a run for your life.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Also, this uber-missile benefits mostly the AI, cause we humans know that pound by pound missiles are not worth the effort. They weight too much and reload too slow. Even the lowly Meson BLaster is a better weapon.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, I tend to think both Meson BLasters and missiles are both effective weapons in Proportions fleet battles, with different strengths and weaknesses, of course. It's true that just heavy missiles will tend to be intercepted by heavy PD, but if you include rapid-firing light missiles, and/or swarms of cheap ships, it can become quite hard to shoot them all down. If the PD also have fighters and drones to deal with, suddenly even large amounts of PD can be overwhelmed.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I never been able to use Light Missiles effectively. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif May be I just not good in ship design http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

They need to be combined with the heavies. I've beaten technologically superior (bonus'ed) beam-armed AI Druschockans who had been wiping out my direct-fire ships, by engaging them with greater numbers of mostly small cheap missile ships with a mix of missile types.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Could somebody please tell me if it is possible to develope a race which can only invest in its own unique tech structures and not in the normal standard SE4 tech structure?

This would be fine, because if this is possible a race could be totally different from others. (other ships sizes, different facility structures and builtup strategy - eg hives instead of cities, other units types than the others etc.)

thanks for the info
tschüß
KlausD

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

you will have to do something like Pirates or Nomads in Pirates&Nomads mod or Space Monsters in Devnull mod. Basically you make all normal tech a new racial trait and give it to all races except few unique races !

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Precisely.

1) Copy the applicable components and adjust their abilities as desired. Add a racial tech requirement.
2) Delete the original components.
3) Set the new racial trait to start at tech level 1, so the critical components like bridges and spaceports are available right from turn #1.

Note that this will invalidate all of your EMP files, and the AIs will have to be modded to pick one of the new racial traits.

[ April 21, 2003, 02:55: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

many thanks for your prompt reply.
klausD

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you really think so? I have always found the stackable damage of missiles to be quite painful against things like leaky shields, since you tend to have a lot more damage hollowing out the hull before the shields have a chance to compensate.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Edit:

LOL! I was doing a search to dig up the old PvK Balance Mod thread when I noticed Talenn's post from a year ago and thought it was recent. I think I'd already replied. Rather than delete what I just typed, I'll just leave it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

...

Hi Talenn,

I just noticed your message here.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's been noted before that I made torpedoes a good weapon in Proportions. They were dreadful in unmodded, but yes they are a good early choice. I actually like the low-tech ones pretty well because they do some damage and are dirt cheap. There are several techs that are made good in Proportion by their cheapness, which is more of a concern in Proportions than in unmodded, because you don't have runaway production, and small cheap ships can end up being cost-effective. See for example Armored Structure I, Efficient Engines, the cheap advanced sensors/ECM, small hulls, Basic Life Support, etc.

I don't know that torpedoes need to be toned down any, but lowering the to-hit is an appropriate change for the effect you have in mind - sounds good.

Many weapon stats have been adjusted, extended, and rebalanced in various ways. Pretty much all of the slow-reload weapons have more power than in unmodded. There are other heavy weapons that are more powerful higher on the tech tree, but they take more research to get to.

The various armors available also shift the weapon balance in a few ways.

Quote:

Is there some updated listing of how emissive armor works now? I remember threads on it ages ago, but I'm sure they are outdated with the newer patches. Do emissive effects stack or is it only the highest...ie, if I have 2 Armored Hulls (11 Emissive each), do I have 22 total? Does it stack from different component (ie, 1 Armored Structure giving 1 + the Hull giving 11 = 12?)? I also wasnt aware that Emissive effects were 'global'. I was under the impression that the Emissive component had to be 'hit' for the damage reduction to apply. Has this been thoroughly tested and confirmed? ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is confirmed that Emissive Armor on ships and bases is always applied to each hit, unless the hit is with an armor-piercing weapon. The highest EA value of any component on the ship is used, regardless of which component is being hit. EA effect never stacks in 1.84 or 1.91.

Regards,

PvK

[ February 26, 2004, 06:05: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Can I use proportions with the new patch?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Yes, Proportions shouldn't have any problems with the new patch. The AI will behave a bit differently with colonizers - should hopefully be better with them now, and with its economy.

If anyone notices any issues, please let me know.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I'm using an slightly modified Version of Proportions 2.5.3, and I'm worried that installing the new patch may erase my changes.

Do I have to reinstall proportions and/or SE4 to install the new patch?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

No, the patch doesn't touch Proportions. Proportions files aren't affected, and when using the mod, the mod's data files are used instead of the game's patched data files.

Meanwhile, all the hard-coded changes (AI, interface, bug fixes, etc.) work fine, and I don't know of anything but improvement when using Proportions.

Sometimes you do need to make a fresh install of SE4 before the finicky installer will run. Other times, you don't. If you do, you can then copy your old Proportions files into the new SE4 install, and it'll work fine (assuming the copy goes right).

The main issue with mods and the new patch is that mods don't get changed by the patch, and a few of the mod changes are in the data files which mods need to include. This is why I made a new Version of PvK Balance mod - because it doesn't change the data, so if you use Version 1.0 of PvK Balance with SE4 1.91, a few of the the SE4 1.91 changes get set back to 1.84 status - like the population curve, and component and facility tweaks.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I played few proportions games with new patch and is quite impressed. AI use pop. transports MUCH more efficient now. However I suspect Aaron simply changed max. population to send transport from 500 to 50. I might be mistaken here but that is my impression. It would be much better if that value is determined in settings.txt than hardcoded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

How can I mod in more than one militia unit per pop unit?
I modified my proportions settings.txt to get one per one, but I haven't found how to get more than one.

The point its, that infantry weights 1kt, and since a million pop weights 1000 kt, that means that one infantry have 1000 soldiers, right?

So if one million pop gives me one militia unit, that would mean 1000 soldiers out of one million, which seems to me completely unrealistic in the case of an alien invasion who undoubtely would unite all possible factions in any given colony against them.
I'll say that one million pop should give 10 000 militias, or maybe even 100 000, if we assume that the local authorities would draft all abled male for planetary defense.

If its not possible to have 10 or 100 militia units out of every pop unit, then I guess the only way would be to scale the single militia unit to represent 100 000 soldiers, keeping in mind that 1000 milita soldiers should be weaker than 1000 infantry.

Can anyone help me to enter the right values on the settings.txt to make militias like this, keeping that value within Proportion's combat values?
I fear I may overpower the militias.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, according to you, 1000 soldiers weight 1000 tons or 1 soldier weits 1T http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just build more infantry and do not rely on militia.

And with your changes, how do you plan to ever take over a HW with its 2B people if each one recruit one militia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did re-iterate the request for being able to mod that during beta. The patch notes describe a new algorithm that replaces the old threshold. IIRC it simply goes to the lowest-populated colony, unless a ship is already going there. Should be pretty effective for Proportions, given its population curve.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you can. What you can do however, is change the strength of a militia unit, so it represents more or better-armed resistance.

Quote:

The point its, that infantry weights 1kt, and since a million pop weights 1000 kt, that means that one infantry have 1000 soldiers, right?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, that's making assumptions and over-simplifying. Colonists and whatever they need to become productive citizens on an alien planet may be more or less difficult to transport than soldiers and their military equipment. It'd no doubt vary from species to species and tech to tech. With no specifics available or needed, the mod is abstract on this point. If you like thinking of it as 1000 soldiers, that's not an unreasonable base-line though.

Quote:

So if one million pop gives me one militia unit, that would mean 1000 soldiers out of one million, which seems to me completely unrealistic in the case of an alien invasion who undoubtely would unite all possible factions in any given colony against them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree that resistence would be determined. However ...

Quote:

I'll say that one million pop should give 10 000 militias, or maybe even 100 000, if we assume that the local authorities would draft all abled male for planetary defense.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Though I sympathize with the intent, your argument breaks down in practice on several details.

* First, one militia unit is not necessarily the same size as one infantry unit. It would depend on a lot of things.

* Second, realize that SE4 REGENERATES the militia for every ground combat, and that in Proportions, taking a defended planet often takes many ground combats. So one combat round of militia in Proportions should not represent all the civilians who could be drafted, but only a part. Taking a populated planet quickly therefore becomes more important, as makes sense. It would also be a game balance & logic problem if the population itself could generate unlimited strong defenders every unless they could overcome it immediately.

* Third, high-tech combat probably depends more on how many weapons are available, than how many unarmed & untrained volunteers are available. A militia can then be more properly represented by having colonies build or receive some simple infantry units. If a planet fails to do this, it means the colony doesn't have any useful weapons to equip its people with. My concept for Militia in Proportions was that it represented the ability of the civilians to use improvised weapons and to support whatever troops were there. Armed civilians, militia weapons Caches, or any military-effective weapons on the planet should be represented by infantry units. I suppose it'd be good to add a unit named "militia" for clarity.

PvK

[ March 01, 2004, 19:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, think of it as the weight of the equipment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a bad idea. I will do it this way. It makes sense.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Humm..... I hadn't thought about this... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I guess I'm gonna have to build a LOT of ground forces and troop transports.
That will be a battle on a true Epic scale! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I think I will comission 4 more Shipyard Bases on my Homeworld to build my invading forces. (I already have....15!)



I either take the Xiati Homeworld or I go bankruptcy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

By the way, do the Plague Bombs kill ground forces too or only the Pops?

[ March 01, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: SB ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Plague bombs only kill population..but as the population dies, the number of militia will drop as well.